Does God implicitly consent to everything that happens?

okay, the thing we should realize is that southstar is perfectly justified in saying what he is saying. it would not be a crime if he could not save the man under the car. but we must also realize the reason for this. and that reason is that he simply did not know. or, at the very least, did not know far enough ahead of time, and literally could not do anything to aid the man. god, however, is omniscient, and he knew the man would be hit, presumably before the man was even born. and still god did nothing.

I don't see how the relationships between human beings, as you have even pointed out in your example about the law, should be applied to God.
oh. so when god is described as loving, this does not indicate love in the sense of my loving ______. just a willingness to observe humanity from afar.
 
He is omnipresent, therefore it is impossible for HIm to obseve from afar. He is everywhere.
 
antifreeze said:
okay, the thing we should realize is that southstar is perfectly justified in saying what he is saying. it would not be a crime if he could not save the man under the car. but we must also realize the reason for this. and that reason is that he simply did not know. or, at the very least, did not know far enough ahead of time, and literally could not do anything to aid the man. god, however, is omniscient, and he knew the man would be hit, presumably before the man was even born. and still god did nothing.

That is a contradiction. :confused:

If God knew the man was going to be hit before he was even born, as omniscience implies, then why should He prevent the man from being hit? That would be paradoxical and illogical as that would imply He knew the man would not be hit.

oh. so when god is described as loving, this does not indicate love in the sense of my loving ______. just a willingness to observe humanity from afar.

That is what I was saying. Why is God so often lowered to our standards, so that what we see as right and wrong should also apply to Him? If a sick child is dying in bed and God does not heal the child, we think that God has done something wrong. As your comment on His omniscience indicates, He is actually seeing the bigger picture that we are so blind to.
 
Enigma'07 said:
because He knows it will turn out for a greater good.
That would seem to imply that I'm justified in doing anything I want, since God wouldn't consent to me doing it if it wasn't for the greater good. If I started randomly murdering people and God didn't stop me, well, it must be for the greater good otherwise he wouldn't let me do it, right?
 
God allows bad stuff to happen, but He will use it. He might prefer if you not do something, but He has given you a free will and allows you do do what you want. God will turn eveything for a greater good.
 
Nasor said:

If we believe that God is all-powerful, wouldn't that mean that he implicitly consents to everything that happens, since he chooses not to intervene? If so, does that mean that God 'wants' people to suffer from natural disasters etc?

Part the First

If God is all-powerful, then yes, God is responsible for everything that happens. However, we should put aside notions of whether God "chooses not to intervene."

Traditionally, though not exclusively, an all-powerful (omnipotent) god is also all-knowing and all-seeing (omniscient). In Christianity, for instance, these factors have led to assertions of the Immutability of God's Will, which is in itself an argument I accept:

• If God is omnipotent and omniscient, what is the purpose of implementing a flawed plan and adjusting as one goes? Is the point of advent representative of "the best God could do"? Inevitably, we presume that had God wanted things differently, God would have done things differently. It's not an airtight case; but if God's going to be as magnanimous as we humans tend to presume, it seems almost as if we must necessarily conclude that the "plan" as such is exactly as God wants it. There is no better way, or other way, inasmuch as this is the way God has chosen.

Part the Second

As humans anthropomorphize the mysteries of the Universe into a not-so-neat, relatively little package, the compression of ideas creates tremendous distortions. In a Universe as vast as this, some dare pretend that God is such that there is conscious, caring decisions behind the happenings of the Universe.

• One throws the frisbee, and if you're an acute physicist with a supercomputer for a brain, you can tell from the moment you let go of the frisbee exactly where it's going to land and what course it will take. What God "wants" is not so implausible in this sense; God casts the Universe and what comes of it is the result of God's actions. Omniscience and omnipotence suggests that God knows exactly what the outcome of Its actions are. Where humans screw things up is that after the frisbee leaves our hand, it's supposed to fly fifty feet and explode. This works well enough if you attach a bomb to the thing, but not if you decide halfway through its flight that it must explode and decide to bring the explosion via telekinesis.

We seem to expect, in phrasing certain questions about God, that It will in fact, reach out its hand like Darth Vader and make the frisbee explode. Why would God do this if It could simply design the frisbee to explode with no second effort? It seems rather problematic, from the mystical perspective, for something all-knowing and all-seeing to decide late in the process that something needs to be changed. It's at least one degree too many of anthropomorphization (I suspect it's at least thirty-degrees off-course, but we need the first twenty-nine degrees in order to arrive at the present question, as such).

It's not so much that God "wants" little Billy to die specifically, but rather that the earthquake is a necessary part of the plan, and therefore little Billy's being crushed by falling debris and then suffering for two days under the pile while he slowly dies is inconsequential to the intended outcome of God's "plan."

We can't judge "true" good and evil unless we know the dimensions and attributes of that against which we compare it.

• If a tree falls in the forest ...?

There is an old joke in which a guy goes to God and says, "Excuse me, father? I hear that a million years is like a second to you." And God says, Yes, my child. It is true. So the guy says, "And a million dollars, is that like a penny to you?" And God says, More or less. So the guy asks, "Hey, Dad, can I have a penny?" So God responds, Sure, son, just a second ....

Combine that with a classic Far Side frame in which God, as a child, unsuccessfully attempts to create a chicken, and it occurs to me that since Crucifixion, God's been on a five-minute coffee break.

Of course, there's always the possibility that God just isn't there and never was.

Or there is the fairly evolved (yet forsaken in Abramism and other "modern" religions) idea that God simply is, and does nothing. An unmoved mover, or unnamed namer. And that idea is the relevant point of the tree falling in the forest. If the tree falls in the forest, and there's somebody there to hear it, and that somebody is too busy to pay attention or care, what difference does it make?

I had been thinking of a note on Lovecraft, but it's convoluted and I will have to do some reading to get back to it.

But yes ... God is responsible for whatever results from Its will.
 
That would be paradoxical and illogical as that would imply He knew the man would not be hit.
how so? god knows the man will be hit. if anything, it would imply god willed that the man be hit.
If I started randomly murdering people and God didn't stop me, well, it must be for the greater good otherwise he wouldn't let me do it, right?
right. according to southstar, his god sees the whole picture. i, for one, am willing to accept that argument. well played southstar. :cool:
 
Simply beautiful tiassa.

Brings tears to my eyes but Biblically, a day is also like unto a thousand years to God. ;)

Could you explain this part, however:
Combine that with a classic Far Side frame in which God, as a child, unsuccessfully attempts to create a chicken, and it occurs to me that since Crucifixion, God's been on a five-minute coffee break.
 
antifreeze said:
how so? god knows the man will be hit. if anything, it would imply god willed that the man be hit.

No I was talking about you saying God knew the man would be hit beforehand, but didn't do anything to stop it. Well, if he did stop it, that would contradict his omniscience because then He didn't really know that the man would be hit.

I already agreed with your second statement anyway.. see one of the above posts.

right. according to southstar, his god sees the whole picture. i, for one, am willing to accept that argument. well played southstar. :cool:

You are the one who started the whole thing on omniscience and now you're leaving me to take the credit? :rolleyes:
 
Well, if he did stop it, that would contradict his omniscience because then He didn't really know that the man would be hit.
i disagree, but i see your argument. okay, so suppose god can see the future. does that mean the future is set? that not even god is able to change it? and though god might design the frisby to explode, it could reach out, darth-vader-like, and stop the frisby from detonating. that is omnipotence, afterall. this is, however, a moot point. :rolleyes:
 
antifreeze said:
i disagree, but i see your argument. okay, so suppose god can see the future. does that mean the future is set? that not even god is able to change it? and though god might design the frisby to explode, it could reach out, darth-vader-like, and stop the frisby from detonating. that is omnipotence, afterall. this is, however, a moot point. :rolleyes:

Well since He does set the future, of course He knows about it. It's not like He doesn't know what He's going to do, as that would again contradict His omniscience. "Designing" the frisbee to explode is different from willing the frisbee to explode.

In your scenario, His omnipotence would contradict His omniscience which is illogical, even to us.

And yes, the future is set. Do I smell another free will discussion around the corner? ;)
 
tiassa said:
It's not so much that God "wants" little Billy to die specifically, but rather that the earthquake is a necessary part of the plan, and therefore little Billy's being crushed by falling debris and then suffering for two days under the pile while he slowly dies is inconsequential to the intended outcome of God's "plan."
The problem, of course, is that if God is omnipotent then he should be able to accomplish anything without having to injure people in the process. If God can literally do anything, then there is nothing that the earthquake could have accomplished that God could not have caused to happen anyway, in a manner that didn't involve little Billy being crushed.

That's the fundamental problem with the 'it's all for the greater good' argument. It's true that we puny humans often have to implement imperfect plans that can't accomplish everything we would like in exactly the way we would like, but an omnipotent God would never be limited in that way. An omnipotent God should never have to resort to using a natural disaster, debilitating disease, or any other event that causes suffering as a means to accomplish his ends. He could simply accomplish his ends (whatever those may be) in a manner that didn't involve hurting people. If God's earthquake results in little Billy being crushed, then God must have wanted Billy crushed, since as an omnipotent being he could have easily saved Billy without endangering his 'grand plan' in any way, yet chose not to.
 
mario said:
I still have a hard time trying to separate everything that is man from the oneness that you speak of.

No need to separate!

all our unique qualities come from... the creator?

Think of the reality that this metaphor signifies :)
 
That is what I'm saying Nasor. God wanted Billy crushed. No one is denying that, for to do so would imply God doesn't do what He wants to do.
 
Do I smell another free will discussion around the corner?
i think that dead horse has been beaten to an unrecognizable pulp. but the gist of my argument is, once god has set things in motion, can it "change its mind?" :confused:
 
antifreeze said:
i think that dead horse has been beaten to an unrecognizable pulp. but the gist of my argument is, once god has set things in motion, can it "change its mind?" :confused:

As I was saying in the post before yours, that would be impossible. God doesn't do something He doesn't want to do (did you catch that? :D)

God doesn't do "trial-and-error" like humans.

If He knows He isn't going to like it the first time around, I don't see why He should do it anyway just because He can rectify it later.

I will try to answer tomorrow. It's late right now and I can't seem to put my thoughts into words... zzzzzzzzz :m:

EDIT: That unrecognized pulp continues to be stepped on and beaten down some more in threads all around this forum. It's a wonder..
 
§outh§tar said:
That is what I'm saying Nasor. God wanted Billy crushed. No one is denying that, for to do so would imply God doesn't do what He wants to do.
What about if I go out and start murdering people? Would you also assume that God wants that, since he doesn't stop it? Not that I have any plans, but you can see why I think there's a problem with that line of reasoning?

This also raises some problems for people who believe that God is loving...since why would a loving God create a plan that involves suffering of people when he doesn't have to?
 
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Nasor said:
What about if I go out and start murdering people? Would you also assume that God wants that, since he doesn't stop it? Not that I have any plans, but you can see why I think there's a problem with that line of reasoning?

This also raises some problems for people who believe that God is loving...since why would a loving God create a plan that involves suffering of people when he doesn't have to?

Try to understand this statement:

You can't save people who aren't lost.
 
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