Does God implicitly consent to everything that happens?
- Thread starter Nasor
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Nasor said:
If you believe that God is really all-powerful, this means that he is no more somebody else's god as there would be no "less-powerful" aside from his "all-powerful" being. If all-powerful, then, all-powerful alone exists, all-powerful alone does everything...
Nasor said:
See, it is an "imagination of god" that we have been conditioned to believe or consider, who thinks and acts like a human being and gives consent(!) to whatever...
Nasor said:
Avoid identifying the causes of your feelings --emotions-- as outside of yourself!
This and similar questions are all based on the imagination of a god(!) and a separate people(!) beside, to execute his power over them???
We can see here how the god preconceptions blind our mind from seeing the facts as they are!!
Our lives in this world is our only chances to know what is referred to as "Allah" as our true reality... I believe, after we can destroy all the preconceptions of god in our minds, we will have really enlightening discussions.
Time to read 'Religious Misunderstandings' at www.ahmedbaki.com
How can god allow evil for a greater goodness? Evil is evil. And god hates evil. That means evil is necessary for goodness to exist. Actually the real evil is free choice...because from free choice evil arises. And remember this is only how god "sees" it must be like. There are other options. Other possibilities. Another god can create things in a different way and still be right. If I was god I would make it impossible for evil period. People can still have free choice but it would be between being "neutral" (not good or evil...just a bored state like I am in now) and goodness. That's all that's necessary for free choice. It would save a lot of heartache and pain. And nobody wants evil either. The "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" commandment is just common sense. So why is evil even there? I would personally get rid of it. Does that make me ungodly to get rid of something that nobody wants anyway? Especially if it was done to them?
Also if freedom is so precious and god wants us to be free in mind and choice then why was it ok for believers to have slaves (in the old testament)? Didn't god know that slavery goes against freedom? Physical freedom is just as important as mental freedom. Actually the two are quite connected. If a slave didn't want to obey his master but was forced to then his free choice is being affected.
Also if freedom is so precious and god wants us to be free in mind and choice then why was it ok for believers to have slaves (in the old testament)? Didn't god know that slavery goes against freedom? Physical freedom is just as important as mental freedom. Actually the two are quite connected. If a slave didn't want to obey his master but was forced to then his free choice is being affected.
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Imagine a world where when you had mind to do evil, God would stop you with force. Would you call such behavior on the part of God good? Would this lead you into God's love or to hate God?
No, but some virtues such as mercy do not seem to be applicable or revealed unless if sin occurs.
Creating the potential for evil is not in itself creating evil.
You would not be able to do that because it would limit the amount of goodness that someone could receive. There really is no middle state when all is done.
It's not possible for you to remove sin alone. You might be able to swap anger for lust, lust for pride, but it's not possible for you alone to remove sin.
Nasor,
That I believe is the real sentiment behind the Christian mythology and why I became a Christian many many years ago. Of course very few Christians have found it possible to turn the other cheek when faced with real confrontation. Even fundamentalist Christians like Bush prefer to bomb and kill innocent Iraqis rather than let God deal with the issue. And it is very difficult to turn the other cheek when your child is about to be raped and murdered before your very eyes. How does one stay focused on Jesus and trust him in times like that, and do nothing? If the teaching of always turning the other cheek is what is needed then self-defense can never be justified. And if the world is overrun with corruption and evil then it does not matter providing we stay true to God and do no harm and love others with all our energy. Our reward is eternal bliss in heaven.
The greater the conflict on Earth then the better the test for us.
Of course there is one big fundamental problem with all of that – there is absolutely no shred of evidence that any of that is true. Shame.
Kat
Apparently so. The reasoning seems to be that the physical world is simply a testing ground and that any pain and suffering we experience is a test of our true character, of how we deal with it personally and how we help others. In the grand scheme of things where we each have the potential of eternal lives then our apprenticeship on Earth is an insignificant drop in the ocean. But the real test is in how we deal with confrontations with others and how much we have faith in God. His promise to us is eternal life through Jesus Christ and Jesus said love your neighbors, and most importantly love your enemies and turn the other cheek if struck. It is not our task to seek revenge, to harm others in any way, but to love only. If evil is done to us and we die then we will be rewarded in heaven and it will be God who takes revenge on the wrong doers in his own time. Our duty is to be faithful to the teachings and direction of Jesus, God will do the rest. We should not be sidetracked by the trivia of Earthly life but focus only on loving others.
That I believe is the real sentiment behind the Christian mythology and why I became a Christian many many years ago. Of course very few Christians have found it possible to turn the other cheek when faced with real confrontation. Even fundamentalist Christians like Bush prefer to bomb and kill innocent Iraqis rather than let God deal with the issue. And it is very difficult to turn the other cheek when your child is about to be raped and murdered before your very eyes. How does one stay focused on Jesus and trust him in times like that, and do nothing? If the teaching of always turning the other cheek is what is needed then self-defense can never be justified. And if the world is overrun with corruption and evil then it does not matter providing we stay true to God and do no harm and love others with all our energy. Our reward is eternal bliss in heaven.
The greater the conflict on Earth then the better the test for us.
Of course there is one big fundamental problem with all of that – there is absolutely no shred of evidence that any of that is true. Shame.
Kat
Yes, if you had the power to snap your fingers and save me from the danger but chose not to, then that would mean you implicitly consented to me being hit by the car. Choosing to not intervene when you have the ability to easily do so is obviously tacit approval of whatever is happening.§outh§tar said:
If I walked into a police station full of armed cops and started randomly shooting people, and the cops made no effort to stop me, then we would have to assume that the cops didn't have a problem with what I was doing. Similarly, if I do anything and God doesn't stop me, it must mean that God doesn't have a problem with what I'm doing – otherwise he would prevent me from doing it, right?
If a tornado destroys a house, then God must have approved of that, since he could have stopped it from happening with a trivially small effort and chose not to.
If a tornado destroys a house, then God must have approved of that, since he could have stopped it from happening with a trivially small effort and chose not to.
Not murder, but in the United States there is a crime called 'depraved indifference to human life' that pretty accurately covers the situation of someone allowing someone else to die when they could easily have prevented it.§outh§tar said:
For example if you're standing in a boat with a large pile of life jackets and there's a man drowning in the water in front of you, yelling for help, and you don't make any effort to help him into the boat or throw him a life jacket, you would probably be charged with depraved indifference.
Also, of course, there is a difference between what someone can be charged with in court and what someone is morally culpable for. I could behave like an insensitive jerk and that wouldn't be against the law, but that doesn't mean that it's the morally correct thing for me to do.
True, sometimes there's a down side to helping people – and you have to consider that when deciding whether or not to take action. No one would argue that you're obligated to rush in and rescue a person in a burning building that's about to collapse, for example. Or perhaps you just don't want to get your new life jackets wet.§outh§tar said:What if you don't want to get the life jackets wet because they're brand new?
But for an omnipotent being that can literally do anything, it's hard to imagine how there would ever be a down side to helping people.
Nasor said:
Yes, but you are implying that God has a responsibility. I don't see how the relationships between human beings, as you have even pointed out in your example about the law, should be applied to God.
Are you saying because it feels like the right thing to do at the moment of peril, that makes it the right thing to do for someone who sees things from a grander perspective?