Does God and his --- Obey or Die law--- say that Christians are to be slaves forever?

[Mazulu]

Then you should understand how good a job he is doing.

[video=youtube;jbkSRLYSojo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo[/video]


All that plus the other markers for the greater evils, violent death and slavery are all at the best levels that we have ever enjoyed. Sure we have a ways to go but things have never been as good.

As to the punishments you speak of from God. Care to answer a few quick questions?

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.

God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard with hell. Hell used here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because you think God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

Regards
DL

I really enjoyed the video. It was inspiring. Thank you.

 

[cole grey]

... and where Mormons get their polytheism.

I should have been more clear, but in regards to the op, I mean, regarding slaves and relationship to god. Your post illustrates exactly how people can take their axioms and apply them in various ways to achieve something that makes sense to them and not to me. Speaking of Mormons, I just thought that guy franklin must see them as a very good religion.

What's wrong with our "personal ego-self"?
I'm I, and you're you - what's bad about that??

Nothing. Unless it is the attachment to the self is the source of problem. Either way! I am just not entirely hopeful that death won't drastically change me, even if there is an afterlife, it may exist after quite possibly ending this particular experience of consciousness, which I call my "self".

 

[Greatest I am]

I really enjoyed the video. It was inspiring. Thank you.

Things have improved even more since that was done.

In the last 20 years we have pulled a full billion people out of poverty and they estimate that we will pull another billion up in the next 20 years. When we consider that poverty adds a lot of evil to the world, we can know that much evil will disappear in the next 20 years.

Regards
DL

 

[cole grey]

Also, there is certainly not one traditional view of hell. Dante's ideas of levels of hell don't coincide with shorthand fundamentalist definition, but are certainly quite traditional. I think it is peculiar that a person has to disregard not only views that supplant the traditional view, but also a traditional view in order to make the point that hell is a certain way and not some other way. Basically above I read, "disregarding how you may see hell, but going by my definition, how do YOU feel about hell?" Reminds me of that old joke that goes, "...but enough about me... What do YOU think about me?"

 

[cole grey]

Galatians 4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 Now I say, as long as the heir is a [a]child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and [c]managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the [d]elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under [e]the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under [f]the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir [g]through God.

Romans 6:22
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

If you need more then Google.

Regards
DL

You need more google, I already know there are multiple passages that have slave and also many that have son, some say bride, some say friend. I don't know of ANY that specifically say, "you aren't a son, you are a slave", or "you aren't a friend, you are a slave," but there are at least a few few that say, "you aren't a slave, you are something else."

 

[cole grey]

Does a human father punish his grand children for what the father does the way God does (original sin)?
DL

I think they do in a way. Let's say the father is an alcoholic, doesn't support the kid, and the kid doesn't get an education.
Also, a society punishes the members when distant ancestors screw up by not being a decent society. So essentially choices of grandfathers do affect grandchildren.

 

[Greatest I am]

I think they do in a way. Let's say the father is an alcoholic, doesn't support the kid, and the kid doesn't get an education.
Also, a society punishes the members when distant ancestors screw up by not being a decent society. So essentially choices of grandfathers do affect grandchildren.

Not quite up to par with a curse from God.

Yours is quite the hypocritical answer that does not speak to the issue at all.
You must think that people here are stupid and will not recognize your hypocrisy.

Regards
DL

 

[wynn]

And your large mind has decided to believe in real fantasy, miracles and magic instead of the real.

A large mind full of crap IOW.

There goes that fancy of yours again!

 

[wynn]

Nothing. Unless it is the attachment to the self is the source of problem.

How can there be "attachment to the self"?!

There may be attachment to a particular idea about the self.

But to criticize being "attached to oneself" (a logical and grammatical impossibility) is like criticizing your nose for being a nose.

Either way! I am just not entirely hopeful that death won't drastically change me, even if there is an afterlife, it may exist after quite possibly ending this particular experience of consciousness, which I call my "self".

Who or what do you think you are then, that you believe death could change you?

Also, there is certainly not one traditional view of hell. Dante's ideas of levels of hell don't coincide with shorthand fundamentalist definition, but are certainly quite traditional. I think it is peculiar that a person has to disregard not only views that supplant the traditional view, but also a traditional view in order to make the point that hell is a certain way and not some other way. Basically above I read, "disregarding how you may see hell, but going by my definition, how do YOU feel about hell?" Reminds me of that old joke that goes, "...but enough about me... What do YOU think about me?"

It is impossible to do justice to talking about hell without remembering Rimbaud's take on it!

 

[billvon]

As to God's responsibility, be we his or not, he decided to torture us if we do not kowtow. I would agree that he is not responsible for us or to us but the Satanic prick will not stop demanding things from us.

Sounds like you are a very fervent believer in your version of Christianity.

 

[Dazz]

I will try to shorten it. 1 No, 2 No, 3 No, 4 Yes.
Your point is clear and undeniable, yet based on misunderstandment i think.
Of course hell is a moral construct. Would you do something bad if you knew that you would get into Self Human Combustion eternally? Still, hell as we depict comes from the 1321 Divine Comedy (bet it!). And we know that that piece derives from the fundamentalist Bible concept of death, ressurection, judgement and punishment.
The Bible speaks about a pre-ressurection of the people who didn't have the chance to meet Jesus or serve him, and, a second chance of serving him to the ones who didn't do it the first time. Acts 24:15; Genesis 37:35.
Point being, the hell as we know is a human moral construct, another metaphor in the Christian mythology, that we have created to keep our misdeeds at bay. The Bible does not say anything, as far as i know, about hell exactly, just hades or Sheol and gehena.
I have little to no knowledge on the Apocrypha but i bet it doesn't say anything about hell either.

 

[wynn]

I will try to shorten it. 1 No, 2 No, 3 No, 4 Yes.
Your point is clear and undeniable, yet based on misunderstandment i think.
Of course hell is a moral construct. Would you do something bad if you knew that you would get into Self Human Combustion eternally? Still, hell as we depict comes from the 1321 Divine Comedy (bet it!). And we know that that piece derives from the fundamentalist Bible concept of death, ressurection, judgement and punishment.
The Bible speaks about a pre-ressurection of the people who didn't have the chance to meet Jesus or serve him, and, a second chance of serving him to the ones who didn't do it the first time. Acts 24:15; Genesis 37:35.
Point being, the hell as we know is a human moral construct, another metaphor in the Christian mythology, that we have created to keep our misdeeds at bay. The Bible does not say anything, as far as i know, about hell exactly, just hades or Sheol and gehena.
I have little to no knowledge on the Apocrypha but i bet it doesn't say anything about hell either.

Who is "we"?

 

[cole grey]

Not quite up to par with a curse from God.
Yours is quite the hypocritical answer that does not speak to the issue at all.
You must think that people here are stupid and will not recognize your hypocrisy.
Regards
DL

first of all, do you know what "hypocritical" means?
secondly, i see nothing strange at all about calling natural consequence a "curse", although there may have been some examples of a curse of God that were actually supernatural events, which interfered with the normal workings of physics, society, and psychology. Cursing the sons of someone in the bible to be wanderers, or whatever, is of course viewable as the result of some person's choice to disregard their family responsibility, for example. It is extremely difficult to parse pieces of the metaphysical and say exactly what is metaphor and what is not, but your response is understandable since you have already stated you are not interested in including any definitions that do not coincide with your own.

 

[kx000]

If yin has no yang it cannot exist by itself.

If we could all love our neighbour etc. and let hate disappear, then no one would be special to anyone so love would no longer exist.

Regards
DL

Are you kidding? I absolutely would love if hate disappeared in a cohesive manner.

 

[Dazz]

@wynn
"We" as us, the group of people who have an even archaic comprehension of the 'hell' as depicted by the bible or, have no more than the common knowledge of the subject. Pretty much anyone.

 

[wynn]

@wynn
"We" as us, the group of people who have an even archaic comprehension of the 'hell' as depicted by the bible or, have no more than the common knowledge of the subject. Pretty much anyone.

The world doesn't begin and end with people who've grown up with some Christian notions.
Apparently, you aren't aware of, say, Buddhist or Hindu ideas of hell.

 

[Dazz]

@wynn
Umm. Actually no, i am not acquainted with the Hindu or Buddhist notions of hell. My bad, shame to admit. Still, do i have to right now?

" Does God and his --- Obey or Die law--- say that Christians are to be slaves forever?*

If not, when does your slavery to God or Satan end?


In a discussion of God’s murder of Adam and Eve, a Christian said the following.

“My understanding is that they were created innocent with the hope of the reward for life if they obeyed and the consequence of death if they didn't.”

What this Christian said I believe is true Christian dogma and tradition.

I believe that it basically shows Christians with characters or egos that want to be or will settle for perpetual slavery.
As Paul says, be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

My reply was basic and true to his, ---- Obey or die, statement.

“IOW. Be my slave and do as you are told or die.”


If true, then who in their right mind would or should ever want to be a Christian?

Do Christians want to be free men and women or slaves to a God who creates us ill and demands we be well, ----- or suffer his punishment of death?"

Take a guess, i'm not going to bold Christian on this text down for you.
Whenever the subject is the Buddhist or Hindu notion of hell i will not get into discussion.

 

[Greatest I am]

I will try to shorten it. 1 No, 2 No, 3 No, 4 Yes.
Your point is clear and undeniable, yet based on misunderstandment i think.
Of course hell is a moral construct. Would you do something bad if you knew that you would get into Self Human Combustion eternally? Still, hell as we depict comes from the 1321 Divine Comedy (bet it!). And we know that that piece derives from the fundamentalist Bible concept of death, ressurection, judgement and punishment.
The Bible speaks about a pre-ressurection of the people who didn't have the chance to meet Jesus or serve him, and, a second chance of serving him to the ones who didn't do it the first time. Acts 24:15; Genesis 37:35.
Point being, the hell as we know is a human moral construct, another metaphor in the Christian mythology, that we have created to keep our misdeeds at bay. The Bible does not say anything, as far as i know, about hell exactly, just hades or Sheol and gehena.
I have little to no knowledge on the Apocrypha but i bet it doesn't say anything about hell either.

I agree that hell does not exist.

Regards
DL

 

[wynn]

@wynn
Umm. Actually no, i am not acquainted with the Hindu or Buddhist notions of hell. My bad, shame to admit. Still, do i have to right now?

You keep saying "we" and propose to mean the whole of mankind, when, clearly, people of different religions have quite different notions of hell.

 

[Greatest I am]

Are you kidding? I absolutely would love if hate disappeared in a cohesive manner.

You think yin and yang enemies but they are there to complement each other. Lose one and the other stagnates or disappears altogether.
Jus as love is complimented by hate.

Regards
DL