does evolution exsist

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Evolution sound like another religion.
I agree. It sounds exactly like a religion. If you work very hard at remaining ignorant about it.

BOth are based in Faith. Just Faith...
Wrong again. You're at least keeping up your average (which, in fact, is decidedly below average). Evolution has evidence for it, and will change to accommodate more evidence as it comes along. Religion has neither evidence nor the ability/ willingness to change to accommodate facts.
 
Evolution sound like another religion. we are coming from nothing, we change into different beings with millions and millions of years, and we keep changing and changing until what? nobody knows.
Not to much difference than God Created us in 7 days and give life to a formed being made of clay.
BOth are based in Faith. Just Faith...

It's hard to think how you could display more ignorance if you tried. :rolleyes:
 
Evolution sound like another religion. we are coming from nothing, we change into different beings with millions and millions of years, and we keep changing and changing until what? nobody knows.
Not to much difference than God Created us in 7 days and give life to a formed being made of clay.
BOth are based in Faith. Just Faith...

No, I see very little evidence for deity. I choose to believe in multiple deities because it pleases my brain wrinkles to do so.

I see a lot of evidence for evolution, bith living and fossil record-a lot more than for the existence of any particular deity.

I've got to have a good look at a chimp skull, a gorilla skull, and a human skull side-by-side...ook. Actually, we look most like a baby chimp.

As far as that goes, we've domesticated ourselves, so where we go is really up to us; unless our civilization collapses and we get exposed to selective pressure again.
 
Evolution sound like another religion. we are coming from nothing, we change into different beings with millions and millions of years, and we keep changing and changing until what? nobody knows.
Not to much difference than God Created us in 7 days and give life to a formed being made of clay.
BOth are based in Faith. Just Faith...

Did you read and refute my post a few posts back?

You can even see evolution going through its stages upon an embryo in the womb. Look it up. Billions of years compressed into 9 months.
 
What I don't understand is the motivation behind wanting evolution to be wrong, myself. But there seems to be a very deep-seated need on some people's part to find ways to discount it.

More often than not it's simply because it threatens their already established world view. I'm sure you already realize this and that you are posing the question as a largely rhetorical one, but let's extend upon it so it might serve it's purpose more effectively.

For our purposes here let's say that there are just two kinds of people in the world. Those who continually revise their world view as new information comes to light and those who have already accepted a world view, at least for the most part, as taught by others. One of the fundamental differences between the two is that it is not tragic if people in the first category find out that they are wrong. They simply assimilate the new information and revise their understanding. But people in the second category typically have so much more to lose because they've embraced the legitimacy and permanence of their world view to the extent that they've built everything else around it. In the case of creationists, even though evolution doesn't serve to disprove the existence of God, it still threatens one of the cornerstones of their faith. To them, a literal interpretation of the creation story is inseparable from God. The Christian science overlay can no longer be removed.

The most unfortunate part of all this is of course, as has been pointed out previously, that it's an unnecessary conflict. There are many Christians and Muslims (most Muslims in fact) who interpret scriptural teachings with our current scientific understanding in mind, realizing that the two should be complimentary instead of contradictory. It's a much more enlightened perspective that I wish more people would embrace.
 
BOth are based in Faith. Just Faith...

thats a very preculiar viewpoint - particularly as you have had a great deal of evidence for evolution presented to you in your short stay on these forums - very little faith at all - its almost as if you are either just making that statement up or you havent even read the replies to your posts.

lets go for a practical statement about evolution from an organisation that you will no doubt have some familiarity with, The Botanical Society of America.

Not only does it outline ways in which evolutionary theory has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt and why creationism has been falsified, but also describes in great detail (without any application of faith) a practical example of both the need to follow an understand evolutionary theory in order to make sense of, and apply the botanical sciences to real world problems, and contrasts this with the utter uselessness of creationism when attempting the same task.



Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution


The Botanical Society of America exists to promote botany, the field of basic science dealing with the study and inquiry into the form, function, diversity, reproduction, evolution, and uses of plants and their interactions within the biosphere. Our membership largely consist of professional scientists, scholars, and educators from across the United States and Canada, and from over 50 other countries. Most of us call ourselves botanists, plant biologists, or plant scientists, and members of our profession teach and learn about botanical organisms using well established principles and practices of science. As such, we were asked by the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) if we could provide a statement outlining our view on evolution. On July 27, 2003 at the 2003 Annual General Meeting the BSA Council approved the statement to follow for use by the NCSE.
Evolution

The Botanical Society of America has as its members professional scientists, scholars, and educators from across the United States and Canada, and from over 50 other countries. Most of us call ourselves botanists, plant biologists, or plant scientists, and members of our profession teach and learn about botanical organisms using well established principles and practices of science.

Evolution represents one of the broadest, most inclusive theories used in pursuit of and in teaching this knowledge, but it is by no means the only theory involved. Scientific theories are used in two ways: to explain what we know, and to pursue new knowledge. Evolution explains observations of shared characteristics (the result of common ancestry and descent with modification) and adaptations (the result of natural selection acting to maximize reproductive success), as well as explaining pollen:eek:vule ratios, weeds, deceptive pollination strategies, differences in sexual expression, dioecy, and a myriad of other biological phenomena. Far from being merely a speculative notion, as implied when someone says, “evolution is just a theory,” the core concepts of evolution are well documented and well confirmed. Natural selection has been repeatedly demonstrated in both field and laboratory, and descent with modification is so well documented that scientists are justified in saying that evolution is true.

Some people contend that creationism and its surrogate, “intelligent design,” offers an alternative explanation: that organisms are well adapted and have common characteristics because they were created just so, and they exhibit the hallmarks of intelligent design. As such, creationism is an all inclusive explanation for every biological phenomenon. So why do we support and teach evolution and not creationism/“intelligent design” if both explain the same phenomena? Are botanists just dogmatic, atheistic materialists, as some critics of science imply? Hardly, although scientists are routinely portrayed by creationists as dogmatic. We are asked, “Why, in all fairness, don’t we teach both explanations and let students decide?”

The fairness argument implies that creationism is a scientifically valid alternative to evolution, and that is not true. Science is not about fairness, and all explanations are not equal. Some scientific explanations are highly speculative with little in the way of supporting evidence, and they will stand or fall based upon rigorous testing. The history of science is littered with discarded explanations, e.g., inheritance of acquired characters, but these weren’t discarded because of public opinion or general popularity; each one earned that distinction by being scientifically falsified. Scientists may jump on a “band wagon” for some new explanation, particularly if it has tremendous explanatory power, something that makes sense out of previously unexplained phenomena. But for an explanation to become a mainstream component of a theory, it must be tested and found useful in doing science.

To make progress, to learn more about botanical organisms, hypotheses, the subcomponents of theories, are tested by attempting to falsify logically derived predictions. This is why scientists use and teach evolution; evolution offers testable explanations of observed biological phenomena. Evolution continues to be of paramount usefulness, and so, based on simple pragmatism, scientists use this theory to improve our understanding of the biology of organisms. Over and over again, evolutionary theory has generated predictions that have proven to be true. Any hypothesis that doesn’t prove true is discarded in favor of a new one, and so the component hypotheses of evolutionary theory change as knowledge and understanding grow. Phylogenetic hypotheses, patterns of ancestral relatedness, based on one set of data, for example, base sequences in DNA, are generated, and when the results make logical sense out of formerly disparate observations, confidence in the truth of the hypothesis increases. The theory of evolution so permeates botany that frequently it is not mentioned explicitly, but the overwhelming majority of published studies are based upon evolutionary hypotheses, each of which constitutes a test of an hypothesis. Evolution has been very successful as a scientific explanation because it has been useful in advancing our understanding of organisms and applying that knowledge to the solution of many human problems, e.g., host-pathogen interactions, origin of crop plants, herbicide resistance, disease susceptibility of crops, and invasive plants.

For example, plant biologists have long been interested in the origins of crop plants. Wheat is an ancient crop of the Middle East. Three species exist both as wild and domesticated wheats, einkorn, emmer, and breadwheat. Archeological studies have demonstrated that einkorn is the most ancient and breadwheat appeared most recently. To plant biologists this suggested that somehow einkorn gave rise to emmer, and emmer gave rise to breadwheat (an hypothesis). Further evidence was obtained from chromosome numbers that showed einkorn with 14, emmer with 28, and breadwheat with 42. Further, the chromosomes in einkorn consisted of two sets of 7 chromosomes, designated AA. Emmer had 14 chromosomes similar in shape and size, but 14 more, so they were designated AABB. Breadwheat had chromosomes similar to emmer, but 14 more, so they were designated AABBCC. To plant biologists familiar with mechanisms of speciation, these data, the chromosome numbers and sets, suggested that the emmer and breadwheat species arose via hybridization and polyploidy (an hypothesis). The Middle Eastern flora was studied to find native grasses with a chromosome number of 14, and several goatgrasses were discovered that could be the predicted parents, the sources of the BB and CC chromosomes. To test these hypotheses, plant biologists crossed einkorn and emmer wheats with goatgrasses, which produced sterile hybrids. These were treated to produce a spontaneous doubling of the chromosome number, and as predicted, the correct crosses artificially produced both the emmer and breadwheat species. No one saw the evolution of these wheat species, but logical predictions about what happened were tested by recreating likely circumstances. Grasses are wind-pollinated, so cross-pollination between wild and cultivated grasses happens all the time. Frosts and other natural events are known to cause a doubling of chromosomes. And the hypothesized sequence of speciation matches their observed appearance in the archeological record. Farmers would notice and keep new wheats, and the chromosome doubling and hybrid vigor made both emmer and breadwheat larger, more vigorous wheats. Lastly, a genetic change in breadwheat from the wild goatgrass chromosomes allowed for the chaff to be removed from the grain without heating, so glutin was not denatured, and a sourdough (yeast infected) culture of the sticky breadwheat flour would inflate (rise) from the trapped carbon dioxide.

The actual work was done by many plant biologists over many years, little by little, gathering data and testing ideas, until these evolutionary events were understood as generally described above. The hypothesized speciation events were actually recreated, an accomplishment that allows plant biologists to breed new varieties of emmer and bread wheats. Using this speciation mechanism, plant biologists hybridized wheat and rye, producing a new, vigorous, high protein cereal grain, Triticale.

What would the creationist paradigm have done? No telling. Perhaps nothing, because observing three wheat species specially created to feed humans would not have generated any questions that needed answering. No predictions are made, so there is no reason or direction for seeking further knowledge. This demonstrates the scientific uselessness of creationism. While creationism explains everything, it offers no understanding beyond, “that’s the way it was created.” No testable predictions can be derived from the creationist explanation. Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. In those few instances where predictions can be inferred from Biblical passages (e.g., groups of related organisms, migration of all animals from the resting place of the ark on Mt. Ararat to their present locations, genetic diversity derived from small founder populations, dispersal ability of organisms in direct proportion to their distance from eastern Turkey), creationism has been scientifically falsified.

Is it fair or good science education to teach about an unsuccessful, scientifically useless explanation just because it pleases people with a particular religious belief? Is it unfair to ignore scientifically useless explanations, particularly if they have played no role in the development of modern scientific concepts? Science education is about teaching valid concepts and those that led to the development of new explanations.

Creationism is the modern manifestation of a long-standing conflict between science and religion in Western Civilization. Prior to science, and in all non-scientific cultures, myths were the only viable explanations for a myriad of natural phenomena, and these myths became incorporated into diverse religious beliefs. Following the rise and spread of science, where ideas are tested against nature rather than being decided by religious authority and sacred texts, many phenomena previously attributed to the supernatural (disease, genetic defects, lightning, blights and plagues, epilepsy, eclipses, comets, mental illness, etc.) became known to have natural causes and explanations. Recognizing this, the Catholic Church finally admitted, after 451 years, that Galileo was correct; the Earth was not the unmoving center of the Universe. Mental illness, birth defects, and disease are no longer considered the mark of evil or of God’s displeasure or punishment. Epileptics and people intoxicated by ergot-infected rye are no longer burned at the stake as witches. As natural causes were discovered and understood, religious authorities were forced to alter long-held positions in the face of growing scientific knowledge. This does not mean science has disproved the existence of the supernatural. The methodology of science only deals with the material world.

Science as a way of knowing has been extremely successful, although people may not like all the changes science and its handmaiden, technology, have wrought. But people who oppose evolution, and seek to have creationism or intelligent design included in science curricula, seek to dismiss and change the most successful way of knowing ever discovered. They wish to substitute opinion and belief for evidence and testing. The proponents of creationism/intelligent design promote scientific ignorance in the guise of learning. As professional scientists and educators, we strongly assert that such efforts are both misguided and flawed, presenting an incorrect view of science, its understandings, and its processes.
 
The fossils of animals, including us, match the turned off, unused, so-called junk DNA of their modern day descendants, so evolution is true. The only debate is about the method, such as if there are more methods than natural selection (in which death 'chooses').
 
well as usual and true to form it looks like the fundies abandoned the thread the moment they were in danger of learning something or were caught out lying
 
Creationist make no logical predictions and never can test anything, but Evolutionist can and do:

The quote in post 166 is long. here is one paragraph of it, an example, that shows how evolution was, understood from historical evidence, and then reproduced as an experiment:

For example, plant biologists have long been interested in the origins of crop plants. Wheat is an ancient crop of the Middle East. Three species exist both as wild and domesticated wheats, einkorn, emmer, and breadwheat. Archeological studies have demonstrated that einkorn is the most ancient and breadwheat appeared most recently. To plant biologists this suggested that somehow einkorn gave rise to emmer, and emmer gave rise to breadwheat (an hypothesis). Further evidence was obtained from chromosome numbers that showed einkorn with 14, emmer with 28, and breadwheat with 42. Further, the chromosomes in einkorn consisted of two sets of 7 chromosomes, designated AA. Emmer had 14 chromosomes similar in shape and size, but 14 more, so they were designated AABB. Breadwheat had chromosomes similar to emmer, but 14 more, so they were designated AABBCC. To plant biologists familiar with mechanisms of speciation, these data, the chromosome numbers and sets, suggested that the emmer and breadwheat species arose via hybridization and polyploidy (an hypothesis). The Middle Eastern flora was studied to find native grasses with a chromosome number of 14, and several goatgrasses were discovered that could be the predicted parents, the sources of the BB and CC chromosomes. To test these hypotheses, plant biologists crossed einkorn and emmer wheats with goatgrasses, which produced sterile hybrids. These were treated to produce a spontaneous doubling of the chromosome number, and as predicted, the correct crosses artificially produced both the emmer and breadwheat species. No one saw the evolution of these wheat species, but logical predictions about what happened were tested by recreating likely circumstances. Grasses are wind-pollinated, so cross-pollination between wild and cultivated grasses happens all the time. Frosts and other natural events are known to cause a doubling of chromosomes. And the hypothesized sequence of speciation matches their observed appearance in the archeological record. Farmers would notice and keep new wheats, and the chromosome doubling and hybrid vigor made both emmer and breadwheat larger, more vigorous wheats. Lastly, a genetic change in breadwheat from the wild goatgrass chromosomes allowed for the chaff to be removed from the grain without heating, so glutin was not denatured, and a sourdough (yeast infected) culture of the sticky breadwheat flour would inflate (rise) from the trapped carbon dioxide.

Unfortunately, most creationist are too dumb to be able to understand the paragraph above.
Fortunately, intelligence increases one's chance of reproduction, so they are being selected against.
 
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i ask everyone here,
doesn't it bother you at all that science has never demonstrated macro evolution?
i would be extremley leery of a data set that fits but cannot be proved despite our best efforts.

now i ask, who are the real scientists around here?

RAV,
aren't you going to denigrate iceaura for their inclusion of lifes origins in evolution?
aren't you going to accuse them of knowing nothing?
no, you won't. you seen what appears to be a creationist you got your panties all up the crack of your ass over it.

my last words on this topic:
science has never demonstrated that macro evolution has or even can happen.
i also believe science has made a discovery which proves could not have arisen naturally which why evolutionist are distancing themselves from it.
 
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my last words on this topic:

Do you promise? Please do us all a favour and live up to your words.


science has never demonstrated that macro evolution has or even can happen.

Maybe if you keep saying that, it might become true. Maybe. :shrug:


i also believe science has made a discovery which proves could not have arisen naturally which why evolutionist are distancing themselves from it.

Your belief demonstrates your level of understanding. :rolleyes:
 
science has never demonstrated that macro evolution has or even can happen.

Then why the pesky fact that every major institution of higher learning on planet earth, not least of which all those in the USA, teach evolution as a fact? Are all those PhD's from every major nation on earth duped into believing in it while creationists (with NO history of being brainwashed) somehow seeing the truth?

Side note: Um. Yeah it has. See: the fossil records.

~String
 
There isn't any credible explanation other than evolution. Religious people believe that god created people. Evolution does away with that. That is a major blow to their belief system. Given that the idea of evolution is 150 years old and almost half of the American population still doesn't accept it despite overwhelming evidence, chances are it's never going to be fully accepted.

Wrong beaver breath. God started every thing with the big bang and evolution is a mechanism of creation . Evolution don't do away with that. Future anchors in time cause the evolution and how did those anchors get there bucko. Owl Magic . No ? By the same way the big bang started Dingus Muggy . You could think of our space -time as a luugy spit out of the mouth of god . Wa La our universe. You are a bag of water beaver tail. It is in the water
 
i ask everyone here,
doesn't it bother you at all that science has never demonstrated macro evolution?
i would be extremley leery of a data set that fits but cannot be proved despite our best efforts.

now i ask, who are the real scientists around here?

RAV,
aren't you going to denigrate iceaura for their inclusion of lifes origins in evolution?
aren't you going to accuse them of knowing nothing?
no, you won't. you seen what appears to be a creationist you got your panties all up the crack of your ass over it.

my last words on this topic:
science has never demonstrated that macro evolution has or even can happen.
i also believe science has made a discovery which proves could not have arisen naturally which why evolutionist are distancing themselves from it.
So, even though they can demonstrate change, and know of no barriers that would prevent changes from accumulating as we do see all over, you can't accept it until they change something to a degree that by any measure would take millions of years? There just isn't time, and it isn't necessary. So-called macroevolution is just a word for the accumulation of genetic changes over longer periods of time.
 
All you Xians : Evolution is real macro and micro. Get a grip and join the modern world. We will find heaven on earth as soon as you wake up to reality. You can still have your God . We won't take that from you. You can still love Jesus , after all he was a pretty good guy in the scheme of things .
 
i ask everyone here,
doesn't it bother you at all that science has never demonstrated macro evolution?
i would be extremley leery of a data set that fits but cannot be proved despite our best efforts.

now i ask, who are the real scientists around here?

RAV,
aren't you going to denigrate iceaura for their inclusion of lifes origins in evolution?
aren't you going to accuse them of knowing nothing?
no, you won't. you seen what appears to be a creationist you got your panties all up the crack of your ass over it.

my last words on this topic:
science has never demonstrated that macro evolution has or even can happen.
i also believe science has made a discovery which proves could not have arisen naturally which why evolutionist are distancing themselves from it.

Me!! I am the real Scientist. The Mad Scientist . Lots of little micros added together = Big Face Macro Man
The Earth is not 6000 years old. That is ridiculous to think. That thought is left over from Humans thinking they are the center of the universe. Do you still believe that too. O.K. we where all just pulling your leg. The world is flat and there is an edge to fall off of. Man staged the moon landing and has never been there. O.K. we came clean now you can go back to sleep and sacrifice your self in the name of your ancient religion
 
you seen what appears to be a creationist you got your panties all up the crack of your ass over it.

Kinky :)

Seriously though, if you'd like to avoid being lumped in with the creationists it might be a good idea to stop regurgitating their 30+ year old material and actually bother to learn something about evolution.

The thing is that I'm actually pretty reasonable. If someone clearly demonstrates that they understand what evolutionary theory actually teaches then I'll engage them in civil and respectful debate assuming that there's some good faith between us. But if someone jumps in with a flawed understanding and an agenda, I consider that to be disrespectful. Rude even. It sets the tone for the discussion.
 
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