Do not resist an evil person

[water]

Yes, but even a Christian is not forced to have considered each and every question that might arise through the incompatibilities with various parts of scripture.

I'm afraid the example opening this thread is all too much a matter of everyday life.
There is no excuse to be ignorant on this.

If you genuinely wanted to know the Christian viewpoint on protecting yourself against rape for a deep reason - for example you were thinking of taking up Christianity - you wouldn't ask a deep question like this of any ordinary Christian you were acquainted with, you'd go to a priest.

A Catholic priest?
I have a deep distrust for them.

But as you want to just have an argument for arguing's sake

NOT AT ALL.
So much on this forum is about arguments for or against accepting Christianity. The matter ought to be taken seriously, and I am taking it seriously.
If I merely wanted to argue, I'd go to the politics forum. You never see me there.

you are not unlikely to get underinformed views.

In which case, Christians reading this should get themselves informed.

If it's your third language, your written English is remarkably high quality, but I've encountered that from Eastern Europeans before. Ah, for a decent Communist education!

*tsk tsk*
Out on a witch hunt?


* * *

Deut.22:25-27 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

And if the girl is not pledged to be married?

Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death.

But she has to live with the shame, and a possible bastard child.
*She* is *in effect* the bad one.

 

[MarcAC]

38. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

As opposed to striking him back?

40. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

As opposed to suing him back and taking his tunic?

41. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

As opposed to forcing him to go back a mile with you?

42. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

As opposed to saying; "Only if you give me this in return"?

-- you are telling me that if I am to be a Christian, I am to let a man rape me and not defend myself?

No. Just don't repay evil with evil. Like - if you had the strength - preventing him from raping you and then (if he becomes helpless) poking his butt with a lamp post.

19. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20. you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Which includes preventing others from defiling it in any way. I think it all depends on who dominates the situation as implied earlier by Jenyar. Defend yourself. Anything else I would state has already been stated in one paraphrase or the other. I think the Christian position has been defended.

 

[§outh§tar]

IF Jesus this and Jesus that.

I'm not one to speculate, my dear cynic.

If being a Christian means emulating Christ, then you have no right to be outraged at what is a comparably enviable state of affairs. Scourged for your iniquities he was, and yet you wag your fist at divine admonition! Please do answer:

WWJD?

Write that out in full.

See Silas' post.

***

Silas,

water is secretly a militant atheist hellbent on disproving God. Haven't you noticed the insidious trend?

 

[Hapsburg]

god doesnt exist.
if god existed, he would not have allowed hitler and the holocaust to happen.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Hapsburg: god doesnt exist. if god existed, he would not have allowed hitler and the holocaust to happen.
*************
M*W: Oh, but he would have allowed it to happen, because if he existed, he would be the evil creator who created humanity as a sick joke.

 

[scorpius]

fyi WWJD=what would Jebus drive www.highrock.com/personal/WWJD

 

[Hapsburg]

yeah, MW. that's exactly my point.
wouldn't god be kinda evil if he actually allowed hitler to do what he did, and whatnot. And not just hitler, but other mass-murderers, too?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Hapsburg: yeah, MW. that's exactly my point.
wouldn't god be kinda evil if he actually allowed hitler to do what he did, and whatnot. And not just hitler, but other mass-murderers, too?
*************
M*W: You know, Hapsburg, I was raised in an agnostic home then later became a devout Catholic. I went as far as I could go as a Christian, but my questions just weren't being answered. In fact, they were being avoided by the clergy to the point they told me that as a woman, I shouldn't be asking questions, so I went searching on my own. Then I realized that Jesus wasn't crucified and that he was married to Mary Magdalen and they had children who married into French royalty. I came to sciforums in 2001 still, however, believing in God, although I had a different perception of God that humanity is God. Actually, all creation is "god." But after getting bashed time and again by the xians on this forum, I realized that there couldn't possibly be a creator of the universe, and that humanity was the true creator. I also learned that there were no original gods but the sun and moon, planets, etc. I went on to research that aspect, and sure enough, the god perceived by the ancients was the sun. The sun created warmth on the Earth and melted the icecaps, warmed the oceans, and the sea creatures walked upon land, etc. Early humans needed an explanation for things they didn't understand, and the elements were feared and awed as gods. I then became an atheist right here on this forum, but I continued to research for answers. However, the xians are now convincing me that Jesus never existed as he was just another dying demigod savior invented by Paul. There may have been an historical Jesus, but he was not God nor did he die for anyone's sins. The more I read xian posts, the more convinced I become that they are all delusional and loving it. What are your opinions about Jesus's existence?

 

[Hapsburg]

M*W: You know, Hapsburg, I was raised in an agnostic home then later became a devout Catholic. I went as far as I could go as a Christian, but my questions just weren't being answered. In fact, they were being avoided by the clergy to the point they told me that as a woman, I shouldn't be asking questions, so I went searching on my own. Then I realized that Jesus wasn't crucified and that he was married to Mary Magdalen and they had children who married into French royalty. I came to sciforums in 2001 still, however, believing in God, although I had a different perception of God that humanity is God. Actually, all creation is "god." But after getting bashed time and again by the xians on this forum, I realized that there couldn't possibly be a creator of the universe, and that humanity was the true creator. I also learned that there were no original gods but the sun and moon, planets, etc. I went on to research that aspect, and sure enough, the god perceived by the ancients was the sun. The sun created warmth on the Earth and melted the icecaps, warmed the oceans, and the sea creatures walked upon land, etc. Early humans needed an explanation for things they didn't understand, and the elements were feared and awed as gods. I then became an atheist right here on this forum, but I continued to research for answers. However, the xians are now convincing me that Jesus never existed as he was just another dying demigod savior invented by Paul. There may have been an historical Jesus, but he was not God nor did he die for anyone's sins. The more I read xian posts, the more convinced I become that they are all delusional and loving it. What are your opinions about Jesus's existence?

you know, ithink you've made the most sense on this board so far.
Jesus? Huh, well i think that he did exist, and did preach peace and whatnot. After he was punished by the Romans for his beliefs, the 'new cult on the block' used hi mas a martyr, and the rest is history.
I also think that he and mary magdalyn had children, and they tried to set up thier own churches. but they were probably suppressed by the catholic church of the day, who proabably feared losing power.

 

[water]

Then I realized that Jesus wasn't crucified and that he was married to Mary Magdalen and they had children who married into French royalty.

French royalty? In the first century AD?

Thank you, this is the best laugh I had in long.

 

[Silas]

Yes, but even a Christian is not forced to have considered each and every question that might arise through the incompatibilities with various parts of scripture.

I'm afraid the example opening this thread is all too much a matter of everyday life.
There is no excuse to be ignorant on this.

Rapes happen every day, but not to everybody every day. And my point later on was that I don't believe most victims worry about their immortal soul.

If you genuinely wanted to know the Christian viewpoint on protecting yourself against rape for a deep reason - for example you were thinking of taking up Christianity - you wouldn't ask a deep question like this of any ordinary Christian you were acquainted with, you'd go to a priest.

A Catholic priest?
I have a deep distrust for them.

What is the relevance of that? I didn't say Catholic priest, and I didn't say Catholic Christianity. I used the example of a Catholic priest elsewhere because it involves a process of Confession of sins. But if you want to become a Catholic, you'd go to a catholic priest. If you wanted to become a Protestant you'd go to a Lutheran priest and if you wanted to become a Jew you'd go to a rabbi.

But as you want to just have an argument for arguing's sake

NOT AT ALL.
So much on this forum is about arguments for or against accepting Christianity. The matter ought to be taken seriously, and I am taking it seriously.
If I merely wanted to argue, I'd go to the politics forum. You never see me there.

We're talking back and forth on a forum. I admit I'm here not just to argue but hopefully to enlighten and inform. But at the end of the day, water, you are not making a serious enquiry for your own benefit and I am not trying to help you become a Christian (God forbid!). You've raised an issue to provoke debate rather than get an informed answer, and what's wrong with that, say I.

you are not unlikely to get underinformed views.

In which case, Christians reading this should get themselves informed.

Well, I agree of course. And so should atheists like myself.

If it's your third language, your written English is remarkably high quality, but I've encountered that from Eastern Europeans before. Ah, for a decent Communist education!

*tsk tsk*
Out on a witch hunt?

I thought I was praising you! I was not having a go at you for having grown up (I assume, unless you're very young) under Communism. Thus the tongue in the cheek.

 

[Hapsburg]

French royalty? In the first century AD?

Thank you, this is the best laugh I had in long.

you do know, she meant french royalty much later on, married into the decendants of mary mag's kids. like, in the 600s, 700s, 800s, or 900s to the Merovingians or the Carloingians or the Capetians.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

water: French royalty? In the first century AD? Thank you, this is the best laugh I had in long.
*************
M*W: Obviously, you are not well-read in the ancient history of Gaul. France as a sovereign country didn't exist then, but the Frankish Empire did. The children of Jesus and MM married into
the royal houses of Gaul. Get a life.

 

[Hapsburg]

which is what i just explained to him.
the merovingians, carolingians, capetians, etc.
them peoples.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Hapsburg: you do know, she meant french royalty much later on, married into the decendants of mary mag's kids. like, in the 600s, 700s, 800s, or 900s to the Merovingians or the Carloingians or the Capetians.
*************
M*W: Thanks, Hapsburg. Melted ice is borderline illiterate. She has no point of her own but argues everyone else's points. She's just a lonely old broad who doesn't have anything better to do. Melted ice will evaporate soon enough.

And you're right. I was specifically talking about the Merovingians who arose in the 300s AD, the Fisher Kings who were believed to have been sired by a "sea creature" with the wife of Clodio. However, it wasn't actually a "sea creature" that brought about the Merovingians (the "vine of Mary Magdalen"), it was about their progenitor who "came over the sea" to Gaul.

 

[water]

And my point later on was that I don't believe most victims worry about their immortal soul.

They may not worry about their immortal soul, but they surely worry about this life, and the consequences being raped brings along.

What is the relevance of that? I didn't say Catholic priest, and I didn't say Catholic Christianity. I used the example of a Catholic priest elsewhere because it involves a process of Confession of sins. But if you want to become a Catholic, you'd go to a catholic priest. If you wanted to become a Protestant you'd go to a Lutheran priest and if you wanted to become a Jew you'd go to a rabbi.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. But my country (Slovenia) is officially 95% Catholic, the Catholic Church says 99%, the statistics vary. It is very hard to find a non-Catholic priest.

But at the end of the day, water, you are not making a serious enquiry for your own benefit

Then you don't know me well enough.

and I am not trying to help you become a Christian

I have no intention to become a Christian.
This doesn't mean that I have something against them, or that I secretly sympathize with them, or whatever else might be inferred from my words.

(God forbid!).

Oh, that you should say this.

You've raised an issue to provoke debate rather than get an informed answer

That's not true. In case you haven't noticed, I have been quite outraged. And to see whether rightfully, I asked.

And one can get an informed answer here; the medium is perfect for this -- written communication with immediate access to resources. And some people here *are* knowledgeable.

It seems you are assuming that only a priest can give an informed answer. In which case, religion is in effect no different than science where only someone with a PhD is entitled to answer questions. Is religion really such? Something that only the few "elect" know? Or is religion something that is lived, on a daily basis, and thus any adult believer should be able to answer my questions, or direct me to another source?

I thought I was praising you! I was not having a go at you for having grown up (I assume, unless you're very young) under Communism. Thus the tongue in the cheek.

Some things aren't funny, or to be made fun of.


* * *

you do know, she meant french royalty much later on, married into the decendants of mary mag's kids. like, in the 600s, 700s, 800s, or 900s to the Merovingians or the Carloingians or the Capetians.

Yes, and we can all be traced back to Adam, right?

 

[Silas]

M*W: Obviously, you are not well-read in the ancient history of Gaul. France as a sovereign country didn't exist then, but the Frankish Empire did. The children of Jesus and MM married into
the royal houses of Gaul. Get a life.

No, M*W, seriously. You get a life. I'm fully on board with the idea that Jesus and Magdalen were married. But the idea that the bloodline of this peasant couple from Judaea was somehow maintained in secret even as long as Constantine's recognition of Christianity (which was when Christianity first achieved any kind of genuine authority) 250 years after the death of Jesus, let alone the two hundred more years before the Frankish Empire and the Merovingians were established in Gaul, is evident nonsense. In the 1st Century, Gaul was a semi-barbarian land entirely a fiefdom of the pagan Roman Empire. And Judaea had its own problems, what with the revolt in 66 and the destruction of the Temple in 70. The Franks were Germanic tribes who invaded in the 5th Century.

In addition to the inconceivably low probability of the bloodline of the most famous person in the world to have been maintained without break for 2,000 years in secret, that whole Priory of Sion thing was just a hoax anyway! The Priory of Sion was established in 1956 by some anti-semitic extreme right wingers who happened to take the name of a monastic order which never had any influence and ceased to exist in 1617. All the supposed documentation making Leonardo and Isaac Newton members, was forged by them.

 

[Silas]

They may not worry about their immortal soul, but they surely worry about this life, and the consequences being raped brings along.

Same thing. Has any raped woman Christian wondered about whether Jesus would have disapproved of her fighting back? Maybe. Is it really likely to be the kind of question the majority of Christians would have considered? I don't think so.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. But my country (Slovenia) is officially 95% Catholic, the Catholic Church says 99%, the statistics vary. It is very hard to find a non-Catholic priest.

Again, the religion is not relevant to my point.

But at the end of the day, water, you are not making a serious enquiry for your own benefit

Then you don't know me well enough.

I don't know you at all, water, but what I meant was you are not a Christian woman who has been raped, fought back against her attacker, and is now concerned as to whether she was supposed to fight back or not. Neither are you a Christian woman who is wondering how she is supposed to respond to a future rapist in light of Jesus's "turn the other cheek". That is what I meant by a "serious enquiry for your own benefit."

and I am not trying to help you become a Christian

I have no intention to become a Christian.
This doesn't mean that I have something against them, or that I secretly sympathize with them, or whatever else might be inferred from my words.

No, no..... read what I wrote in context - I said that you weren't doing something, and that I wasn't doing something. The thing that I wasn't doing, really didn't have anything to do with you. I'm not trying to make you a Christian, because I'm an atheist, trying to give a better Christian answer to your original question than other Chrstians may have. Whether you want to become Christian or not is irrelevant.

God forbid!

Oh, that you should say this.

Was that offensive to you? I say, "I'm an atheist, thank God". It's a little atheist joke. Sorry if I offended.

That's not true. In case you haven't noticed, I have been quite outraged. And to see whether rightfully, I asked.

You've been "outraged" in the rape sense, or you've heard something about Christianity that has outraged you? If the former, then I can do nothing but offer you my sympathy and sorrow.

And one can get an informed answer here; the medium is perfect for this -- written communication with immediate access to resources. And some people here *are* knowledgeable.

It seems you are assuming that only a priest can give an informed answer. In which case, religion is in effect no different than science where only someone with a PhD is entitled to answer questions. Is religion really such? Something that only the few "elect" know? Or is religion something that is lived, on a daily basis, and thus any adult believer should be able to answer my questions, or direct me to another source?

I was trying to contrast the answer of a typical Christian contributor on this site with what you might get from someone who was well versed in theology, of which of course a priest would only be one example.

Some things aren't funny, or to be made fun of.

I apologise with all my heart if I offended you, particularly if you just don't find Communism a laughable subject.

 

[Hapsburg]

Hapsburg: you do know, she meant french royalty much later on, married into the decendants of mary mag's kids. like, in the 600s, 700s, 800s, or 900s to the Merovingians or the Carloingians or the Capetians.
*************
M*W: Thanks, Hapsburg. Melted ice is borderline illiterate. She has no point of her own but argues everyone else's points. She's just a lonely old broad who doesn't have anything better to do. Melted ice will evaporate soon enough.

And you're right. I was specifically talking about the Merovingians who arose in the 300s AD, the Fisher Kings who were believed to have been sired by a "sea creature" with the wife of Clodio. However, it wasn't actually a "sea creature" that brought about the Merovingians (the "vine of Mary Magdalen"), it was about their progenitor who "came over the sea" to Gaul.

Actually, the word "merovinger" and "merovingians" came from thier progenator, the gallic warrior Merovech, who supposedly fought at Chalons against Attila, and subsequntly laid the foundations for the Merovingian Dynasty.

 

[Cyperium]

Do not resist an evil person


So I am told here:





Now, let's cut the theoretical BS, talking about religious principles is talking about YOU AND ME, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW.


So if I find myself attacked, and the man is trying to rape me, and I can't run away, I should just give in and not defend myself?

And, as it is in the nature of violent men, if they could get something once, they will come back for more.

According to you, Christians, I should let this man go on raping me whenever he pleases -- for I am not to resist an evil person?


YOU, Christians, ADSTAR, OKINRUS, JENYAR, LORI 7, CYPERIUM, BEYONDTIMEANDSPACE, MARC AC AND OTHERS, I don't know you all by name -- you are telling me that if I am to be a Christian, I am to let a man rape me and not defend myself?

You should try to run for it, but hitting him might just make it worse. Sadistical rapers might actually WANT you to resist! This is also, I believe, a characteristic of evil.

The first chance you see, then flee, but don't tire yourself fighting with one that has advantage - the strength is needed for fleeing.

Fire gets stronger with fire, this is not theoretical, If someone try to rob you, then it's in your best interest to give the money, even if it is unjust. If someone hits you, then you could be in more trouble if you hit back.

I've been in threatning situations, though I can't talk for everyone, I can say that it's safer not to fight against it! If someone hit you, run! Or if there isn't any way out, then TURN THE OTHER CHEEK! Be weak, don't let your pride ruin it! If you hit him (and are weaker than him) then it will only get worse!