You'd be even moer suprised when you realize how many people will point at their own repackaged bullshit and not recognize it.
Heh, thats only an advantage when you're regifting.
Do atheists indocrinate their children into their belief system?
- Thread starter S.A.M.
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Heh, thats only an advantage when you're regifting.
If you think I actually believe it existed, then it's not me seeing through the glass.
Yep - or at least, there was the threat of victimization were I stupid enough to reveal my religious sentiments.
But even more than this! I would have been (or perhaps was, in subtle ways, for all that I know) victimized by people because they were atheists and because I was a theist. And further still, it was no mere suggestion. This shocks you somehow? Why, exactly?That is entirely proper in this situation, or any other. Commendable.
In your opinion.
Best regards,
Geoff
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M*W: This is a coincidence that this little Ava Worthington of Oregon shares her name with Ava Worthington of Truro, MA, whose mother was brutally murdered a couple of years ago. This little Ava was around two when her mother was murdered and she went to live with her biological father and his family of six other kids who just happened to live next door). I followed the trial of Christa Worthington's killer. I doubt if Ava's biological family moved to Oregon, and the timeframe of the ages of the two Avas is off. What a coincidence!
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M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:
"You can pray for someone even if you don't think God exists." ~ Gordon Atkinson
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M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:
"Great lives never go out. They go on." ~ Benjamin Harrison, 1833-1901 President of the United States of America
Ah, but merely being my own non-belief, it doesn't require that kind of control to be falsified - it happens to depend specifically on theexhumed said:
"impossibility" (extreme unlikelihood) of such events, as experienced by me.
And I think quite a few people share that non-belief in the Calvinist Christian monodeity, and would be faced with making some changes in the event of their having equivalent experiences.
But your point brings up an interesting question: can any general, cultural non-belief in a deity be falsified ? And I think that depends on what it is, what it depends on. A general non-belief in a jealous water deity that depended on no humans being able to swim anyway (so it isn't a deity that drowns people who fall in) could be falsified. Whether it were then replaced with a belief in the Drowning God, or a better non-belief, might be an individual matter.
So like certain specific beliefs in deities, certain specific non-beliefs can be falsified. And the range of beliefs, as well as non-beliefs, now vulnerable to falsification is much larger than in the past.
If you think I actually believe it existed, then it's not me seeing through the glass.
Yep - or at least, there was the threat of victimization were I stupid enough to reveal my religious sentiments.
That is entirely proper in this situation, or any other. Commendable.
In your opinion.
Best regards,
Geoff
Because, unless your beliefs impinged on your work, you are as entitled to believe what you want as anyone else is. I would not expect to get a job aa a bible salesman because of my atheism, so I would not apply in the first place. I would not regard myself as being discriminated against.
Was there a conflict of interests in your case ?
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There are other ways to beat it, you don't need to be a hater.
*************M*W:
Thanks
1. Were you raised religious?
2. If you were to have children now
M*W: Thanks for your comment on the other thread (I believe). No. I was not raised in a religion (technically). My grandparents were all religious. My mother was raised in a hard-shell Baptist home in remote Appalachia. Her father was a wannabee JW. There were no churches close to them, so they didn't go (everybody else was a hypocrite, though).
My dad's parents were Methodists, again living in remote Appalachia, and I don't know that they ever attended church either. As a small child, I was raised by my mother's parents (my parents were both in the military). Even though we didn't go to a church, my Granny pounded that hard-shell Baptist in my poor soul and by the seat of my pants.
When I was five, my parents were out of the military and I went to live with them. Mama tried pounding religion into me, but Daddy was agnostic. I was fed up with my Granny's beating her religion into my legs with a hickory switch, so I rebelled as much as I could against my mother's use/abuse of her mother's religion. I went to a Baptist University (my mother wouldn't let me leave home to go to a distant university, even at the age of 18, so I continued to rebel (even to this day, I must say), even though my mother is gone.
My point is that they tried to raise me under the influence of religion, even if they didn't truly believe in it. They just couldn't pull the wool over my eyes.
My stint at a Baptist University gave me even more reason to doubt their crap. My classmates at the university walked around like zombies. I didn't want any part of that.
Got married, had children, went back to school. I thought at that time it would be a good thing to raise my children in a religion. I converted to catholicism at the age of 22 and raised my children accordingly.
The hardest part of my change of heart was to tell my two elder children that I had made a big mistake in my choice of belief. They are no longer catholic, but I suppose there is some emotional guilt (fear) for them to completely give up. Neither of them ever attend any church. My two younger daughters believe as I do now (or disbelieve). I have to say that I may have influenced my children, but I didn't indoctrinate the younger ones as I had done to the older ones with catholicism.
To answer your question "if I had children now" what would I do? I don't regret seeing that they had a religious education. One must start somewhere. It's better to know what one believes in order to change that belief if one chooses. I don't push atheism on any of them. As I've said before, atheism can only be embraced by one's own self. There is no specific conversion process. It took 20+ years for me to make the transition. If they never want to be atheists, that's okay with me. I feel more successful as a parent and mentor with my two younger daughters. They think for themselves. My two older kids never learned to do that. They're still waiting for god to fix all their problems.
A new venture has presented itself to me. My 14-year-old granddaughter told me the other day that she want's to be a catholic. I'm totally fine with that. We must know who the enemy is before we can fight it. When her religion becomes a delusion to her, she knows where to find me. So, to answer your question, if I had children now (thank god I won't), I would encourage them to to pursue whatever religion they have an interest in, even if it is christianity.
Oh, not so. You'd be surprised the kind of unofficial static that the rumour of a little theology can get you in my line of work whether it affects you or not. Of the thirty people in my old department, I knew of one who was openly religious - and the amount of respect he received was nil. Yet, his religious beliefs didn't intrude on his research that I ever knew about. A colleague of mine - not knowing my own sentiments - told me confidently that she'd never hire any kind of religious person. I'm an evolutionary scientist and geneticist, but still religious; and no, there have never been any conflicts about this in my work, since I make a habit of not telling anyone about it.
Best,
Geoff
Well, what can I usefully say. I find the situation you describe disgraceful and those who discriminate against theists despicable.
At one time in my career, I was responsible for about 250 people. One of my senior executives was a Calvanist, a religion I find totally ridiculous, but his beliefs never caused any problems. I promoted him from junior to senior executive because of the quality of his work.
I don't know where you live but here, in the UK, most people don't give a damn about one's religion. It's no big deal, so you might argue that we are liberal by default.
During three business tours of the US, I noticed that some of the big corporations put pressure on senior staff to live in houses befitting their status in the hierarchy and to attend the " right " church. Some companies, as a matter of policy, interviewed married candidates wives to satisfy themselves that they were behind their men.There were even intrusions on leisure time. People were expected to turn up at softball games to build esprit de corps.
I found the situation nightmarish in that people were being moulded to fit the company profile.
Can you not vote with your feet or do you expect to be treated in the same manner elsewhere ?
How did I miss this sweet debate.
In the past I would have raised my children to be holiday-Xians, as that was my upbringing. Now, after the epiphany haaa! sounds religious doesn't I will, if I have children, raise them to be skeptic and meh if they want to be religious then I suppose it depends on their age and the religion they pick. No I'm not letting the kids go off to a Scientology camp but if their friends are into a church camp sure they can go and if they come home talking about Jesus I say fine, when the day comes when Santa, the Easter bunny, tooth fairy and God need to be talked about in a little more depth - then it will be. Until then it's fine for kids to believe in Santa and God.
In the past I would have raised my children to be holiday-Xians, as that was my upbringing. Now, after the epiphany
haaa! sounds religious doesn't I will, if I have children, raise them to be skeptic and meh if they want to be religious then I suppose it depends on their age and the religion they pick. No I'm not letting the kids go off to a Scientology camp but if their friends are into a church camp sure they can go and if they come home talking about Jesus I say fine, when the day comes when Santa, the Easter bunny, tooth fairy and God need to be talked about in a little more depth - then it will be. Until then it's fine for kids to believe in Santa and God.There are three large corporate headquarters within my normal driving range that I know have affiliations with particular local churches.Myles said:
I associate the phenomenon with family businesses that "grew up". But some, like the Air Force in Colorado, seem to have acquired that feature of corporate climate in later life.
The association of laissez faire capitalism and the Third Awakening in the US is damn bizarre - I haven't seen a stained glass window showing a camel squeezing through the eye of a needle yet, but it wouldn't surprise me. Those people have almost no sense of irony.
But in the US there is still a lot of the real religion of the old time Awakenings (not to be confused with "old time religion", a more modern invention), and it can be surprising to those who extrapolate from their encounters with the new evangelical and fundie stuff. Being "born again", for example, was not then a signification of one's having been saved, but a recognition that there was no such certainty given to anyone, that only God had sure knowledge of even one's own soul, and God saved at His pleasure alone.
Here's a quote from the Bible's rock-ribbed Old Testament (Isaiah) , and one from John Calvin, to illustrate why an American atheist might regard children raised in isolation from all religious thought to be neglected and deprived children:
yes actually, myself, my husband and my oldest child do not belive in god, and my daughter does, and i gave her the choice that if she wanted to belive thats fine, i would never knock her for beliveing in somthig that i dont, i hvae never said to my kids, "there is no god, why belive in him" in fact the oposite, that way your kids grow up letting they're kids have opinions!
Horrifying. "Right" church, indeed. Getting people to press legal suits isn't easy, of course.
Of all the places one could be, the spot I'm in now has the incidental advantage of being more tolerant of religion, on the basis of certain organizational peculiarities. But if I were to go to a different sort of institution, it's exceedingly likely that I would see that sort of prejudice before long. I'm sorry I can't say more but I have an anonymity to protect. However, I still publish in the former area and so theism would not be a help to me there.
Best,
Geoff
I think that stuff goes in stages. Your son may agree to please and be more like his parents, whereas your daughter may want to be more hopeful. Then as people get older they become more cynical only to come back around as they get even older and closer to death.
I really think an elderly Atheist, especially one confronted with their own mortality are few and far between. I would go so far as to say being 100% Atheist at that point is not entirely realistic...possibly even non-existent. More likely Agnostic.
For me personally, i think children should have the opportunity to be hopeful and dream. Organized religion does teach discipline or a degree of regimentation which can be very beneficial as long as it is not extreme and forced on every one around them, then they will just become really annoying. Hard to imagine a supreme creator making so many strange demands on his creation. Seems like the opposite would be true.
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As do certain areligious practices, yes.
Name them.
There are standardized atheist practices that abuse children?