Do atheists believe in survival of the fittest?

Survival of the fittest

  • Big fish feed the little fish

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So its safe to say you do not believe in survival of the fittest?

I beleive that certain people who have some fundamental misunderstandings of evolution attempt to apply it as a form of social engineering - or rather use it as an excuse for a 100% Laissez Faire society - but I really don't agree with that practice though I feel its inhumane. Ironically the people that support this kind of viewpoint are invariable theistic (and mostly christians).

Perhaps ironically it works very well in science though - hypothesis and theories that don't meet the stringent requirements of the scientific method and peer review eventually die out to replaced by those that fits the facts more closely.
 
So its safe to say you do not believe in survival of the fittest?

Now that I have answered your question, may I ask you a few questions in return?

Do you beleive in the survival of the fittest?

Why?/why not?

Do YOU think that atheists beleive in the survival of the fittest?

Why?/why not?

Why is it important to you that you know?
 
I didn't want to bring it up since it is off topic, but I don't want to start a thread on it.

How is it that someone that apparently doesn't understand basic evolution is moderator of Biology & Genetics ?

:bugeye:
 
I beleive that certain people who have some fundamental misunderstandings of evolution attempt to apply it as a form of social engineering - or rather use it as an excuse for a 100% Laissez Faire society - but I really don't agree with that practice though I feel its inhumane. Ironically the people that support this kind of viewpoint are invariable theistic (and mostly christians).

Perhaps ironically it works very well in science though - hypothesis and theories that don't meet the stringent requirements of the scientific method and peer review eventually die out to replaced by those that fits the facts more closely.

Do you think so? It was the church that opposed the forced sterilisation of the genetically inferior in the 1930s and it was the rational scientists that endorsed it.

The Stalinists and Nazis who were scientifically creating a Godless and "master race" society respectively, were no Christians either; a cursory look at their pamphlets or a trip to the nearest Holocaust museum will prove that.

What I find incredible is that so many people who defend Darwin (and I am not referring to his Origin of Species) appear to overlook that he said things like:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races will almost certainly exterminate, replace, the savage races throughout the world…the break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian (aborigine) and the gorilla.”-Descent of Man​

The Descent of Man



With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.​

The Descent of Man


The man was clearly a racist himself or a white supremacist at the least and its no coincidence that people like Thomas Huxley (Darwins bulldog) also held similar views:


“It may be quite true that some negroes are better than some white men; but no rational man, cognisant of the facts, believes that the average negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the average white man. And, if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favour, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smallerjawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried on by thoughts and not by bites. The highest places in the hierarchy of civilisation will assuredly not be within the reach of our dusky cousins, though it is by no means necessary that they should be restricted to the lowest.”​

Emancipation-Black and White


I think its dishonest to deny that Darwin and his ilk legitimised racism and eugenics as a scientific paradigm.
 
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I didn't want to bring it up since it is off topic, but I don't want to start a thread on it.

How is it that someone that apparently doesn't understand basic evolution is moderator of Biology & Genetics ?

:bugeye:

I wondered how that has not come up yet. Clearly, all the atheists must unite to save the forum from me. Perhaps a petition to the admin?:shrug:
 
I wondered how that has not come up yet. Clearly, all the atheists must unite to save the forum from me. Perhaps a petition to the admin?:shrug:

You clearly don't get evolution. Either that, or you're faking it.

Should someone that doesn't understand a subforum's topic be moderator of it ?

Analogy: Should someone that sucks at math be moderator of Physics & Math ?

I'm just raising the question.
 
You clearly don't get evolution. Either that, or you're faking it.

Should someone that doesn't understand a subforum's topic be moderator of it ?

Analogy: Should someone that sucks at math be moderator of Physics & Math ?

I'm just raising the question.

Of course. Why don't you petition the admin?
 
Do you think so? It was the church that opposed the forced sterilisation of the genetically inferior in the 1930s and it was the rational scientists that endorsed it.

The Stalinists and Nazis who were scientifically creating a Godless and "master race" society respectively, were no Christians either; a cursory look at their pamphlets or a trip to the nearest Holocaust museum will prove that.

Why are you talking about eugenics? The phrase "The survival of the fittest" relates to ECONOMIC social theories, have a quick look under your desk - you may find the plot there.

What I find incredible is that so many people who defend Darwin (and I am not referring to his Origin of Species) appear to overlook that he said things like: Blah blah blah blahdi blahdi blah same old tired bollcks blah.

You are making a huge leap here from the irrelevant (see previous bit about eugenics) to the stratospherically obtuse - no-one, least of all me has defended Darwin's ideas on race.
What has that got to do with economic social theories common in the far right anyway?
 
Why are you talking about eugenics? The phrase "The survival of the fittest" relates to ECONOMIC social theories, have a quick look under your desk - you may find the plot there.

You are making a huge leap here from the irrelevant (see previous bit about eugenics) to a stratospherically obtuse point - no-one, least of all me has defended Darwin's ideas on race.
What has that got to do with economic social theories common in the far right?

I don't know, since I was responding to your post here:
patel said:
I beleive that certain people who have some fundamental misunderstandings of evolution attempt to apply it as a form of social engineering - or rather use it as an excuse for a 100% Laissez Faire society - but I really don't agree with that practice though I feel its inhumane. Ironically the people that support this kind of viewpoint are invariable theistic (and mostly christians).

Perhaps ironically it works very well in science though - hypothesis and theories that don't meet the stringent requirements of the scientific method and peer review eventually die out to replaced by those that fits the facts more closely.

Are you talking about economic theories?


Like I said, I'm just raising the question.
I'm not questioning your abilities as a moderator.
It just seems unfitting somehow.

Take it to the relevant forum. Start a thread on it. :shrug:
 
SAM, maybe you could explain what you mean by 'survival of the fittest' now ?
 
SAM, maybe you could explain what you mean by 'survival of the fittest' now ?

Sure:


Survival of the fittest
is a phrase which is shorthand for a concept relating to competition for survival or predominance. Originally applied by Herbert Spencer in his Principles of Biology of 1864, Spencer drew parallels to his ideas of economics with Charles Darwin's theories of evolution by what Darwin termed natural selection.​
 
Sure:


Survival of the fittest
is a phrase which is shorthand for a concept relating to competition for survival or predominance. Originally applied by Herbert Spencer in his Principles of Biology of 1864, Spencer drew parallels to his ideas of economics with Charles Darwin's theories of evolution by what Darwin termed natural selection.​

So which one are you referring to ? Economics or biology ?
 
So which one are you referring to ? Economics or biology ?

I'm not. I'm asking how atheists view it and what it means to them, considering that Darwin himself used it as a metaphor for his theory of natural selection.
 
I don't know, since I was responding to your post
Ideed an nowhere in my post or indeed anywhere in this thread have we made the huge and wildly off topic leap to eugenics

like I said - Plot lost sweetie ?

Are you talking about economic theories?

The first point is pretty clear on that - and what my view on it is - the second - a side note really - illustrates an example of where it might usefully be applied
 
Ok. It is a quick and rather incomplete description of how evolution works.

I still don't get of what relevance the poll is.
 
SAM, I apparently misunderstood you earlier. My apologies.

Question: Why do you want to know how atheists view it ?
 
Ideed an nowhere in my post or indeed anywhere in this thread have we made the huge and wildly off topic leap to eugenics
like I said - Plot lost sweetie ?

Maybe you did not, but Darwin most certainly did and I'm referring to survival of the fittest, who's talking about evolution?


The first point is pretty clear on that - and what my view on it is - the second - a side note really - illustrates an example of where it might usefully be applied

Yeah plenty of scientists were usefully applying it to stop the savages from breeding back in the 30s.
 
Maybe you did not, but Darwin most certainly did and I'm referring to survival of the fittest, who's talking about evolution?

Well Darwin isn't posting on this board, so he can neither answer your posts nor defend himself - so you're still irrelevant and off topic.

You should know better than using flimsy ad hominem attacks to apply your own value judgements and predjudices about a dead christian, to living atheists.

It seems that you are not being very open handed with either your questioning or your poll (and I'm being extremely kind and restrained in the way I'm phrasing that)- it seems what you actually want to do is confirm your own predjudice that combining an understanding of evolution with atheism leads to an obligation to defend racism and eugenics.

If you want to know the truth why not simply ask that question straight out instead of trying to hide your motives?
 
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