Do Animals Have Souls?

[KennyJC]

i suggest you hold this view as you have yet to understand the freedom that is born of immortality.

That does not sound like freedom to me. Unless I am shown in great detail what it will be like and given a choice... a bit like he blue pill or the red pill.

i suggest that you have never fully achieved the perspective of a theist who knows where their death will lead, at best you have acheived the perspective of an atheist trying to justify his lack of understanding of the theist perspective.

Well their ramblings on this issue are always vague. So I suggest they don't know what they are in for and are just being naive.

what makes you apprehensive when you think of your death? for me it will be like going home. what apprehension is there in that? none.

I'm not apprehensive on death, I am saying if I knew for certain death lead to some sort of eternal afterlife which I had no knowledge or choice over, then I would be apprehensive

what is it that you fear? my geuss is your own existence scares the hell out of you.

My own existence doesn't scare me at all. I am comfortable with it. If the average life expectancy for a man is 74, then I have a 51 years left and that is enough. Eternal nothingness is the kind of afterlife I want.

 

[ellion]

fair enough!

 

[Cris]

Duendy,

but how can you even measure consciousness you cant...? so how then an yo 'make' it.

It’s called reverse engineering. How we measure it is a matter for developing science and experimentation. You seem to imply it can never be measured. Not sure how you can justify that perspective.

you seem t adhere to te 'mergence teory' of consciousness, but it still fal to explain how rthe sense of subkectivity/meaning can emerge from 'dead' matter no matter how complex

What do you mean by dead matter? Even an apparently lifeless rock has tremendous activity within its atomic structure. There is no clear boundary between life and non-life. Everything is a matter of attractive and repulsive forces.

can you rather not understand tat brains are knd of like transformers of consciousness.

No. There is no reason to conclude that consciousness is something independent of the brain.

meaning consciousness is te I N S I D E if realiy, or manifested reality.

Gibberish.

not 'inside' as te brain is inside a skull, but te inner feeling of mainfest reality....thus stones inner feels, water, leaves, air............

More gibberish.

 

[duendy]

Did I leave you "Speachless" Duendy?

i actually replied to you Godless......?

 

[Godless]

))))))))))))))))&((((((((((((((((

That's not an answer!.

 

[duendy]

That's not an answer!.

are you takin the piss?...in the main body of yourposti answer in various point....my paragraphs begin with 'me))))"......?

 

[Cyperium]

No, but I once never existed. Why didn't my soul exist before birth if it can exist after death?

If a theist is willing to jump through hoops and twist this around I bet many will say the soul exists before birth too. But if I am not aware of it before birth or after death, and it's 'energy' can not be detected transferring to the dimension of heaven/hell then what importance does this place?

Why is it hard to accept that the brain is what it is? Is it not romantic enough for you?

Actually, we christians believe that when we die we die, the body will rotten and be meat for worms, when we die we cannot think. God is God for the living, not for the dead.

Then we will get a new body free from this worlds flaws and which will live forever.

We don't believe you 'existed' before you were born, but since you once have started to exist, why is it so hard to believe it might happen again?

 

[KennyJC]

Actually, we christians believe that when we die we die, the body will rotten and be meat for worms, when we die we cannot think. God is God for the living, not for the dead.

Then we will get a new body free from this worlds flaws and which will live forever.

We don't believe you 'existed' before you were born, but since you once have started to exist, why is it so hard to believe it might happen again?

You are wrong. Everybody knows that when we die (or at least the loyal followers of the FSM), we will get to slide up and down his noodley appendages in the form of small meatballs. Although we would be meatballs, our neuron network remains perfectly intact with the same energy which functioned our personality.

Then we will get a new body free from this worlds flaws

How dare you say this world has flaws. The FSM will cast you down as a morsel of parmesan cheese in the afterlife.

No sliding up and down his noodley appendages for you, pal.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Duendy,

The hard problem is a matter of reverse engineering, there is no need to introduce the fantasies of the supernatural into what is simply a difficult problem. Like so much in the past, if it is not understood then it is assigned a mystical cause - surely we have learnt this lesson by now. In all that time nothing supernatural has ever been detected.

How can the "supernatural" be detected by merely "natural"?

Jan.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

How can the "supernatural" be detected by merely "natural"?

More importantly how can something supernatural interact with something natural for you to claim to know it exists?

 

[duendy]

Jan,

More importantly how can something supernatural interact with something natural for you to claim to know it exist?

so is 'natural' = matter/energy and 'supernatural' = subjective consciusness ?

if so, why call latter 'SUPERnatural'?...IF Nature IS sentient, meanigthat all FEELs, why is that 'supernatural'? and divorced from 'natural' that is just keeping to dualism. separating whats beliefed to be above 'matter'. but i am suggesting consciousness is always WITH matter/energy....tis would mean the air around you right now is aware doesn't it?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan,

More importantly how can something supernatural interact with something natural for you to claim to know it exists?

I wouldn't say that was more important Cris, it stands to reason that if the supernatural is to be detected, then something must be able to detect it. I am not arguing for or against the supernatural, I merely wish to know how it could be detected, in your view.
What would convince you of the supernatural?

Jan .

 

[Jan Ardena]

duendy,

so is 'natural' = matter/energy and 'supernatural' = subjective consciusness ?

if so, why call latter 'SUPERnatural'?...IF Nature IS sentient, meanigthat all FEELs, why is that 'supernatural'? and divorced from 'natural' that is just keeping to dualism. separating whats beliefed to be above 'matter'. but i am suggesting consciousness is always WITH matter/energy....tis would mean the air around you right now is aware doesn't it?

I believe Cris and others understand the term supernatural to include God, gods, pixies, elves, ghosts, etc, and events that contradict, and/or overide, the known laws of physics. In other words everything has a natural explanation.

JAN .

 

[Cris]

jan,

What would convince you of the supernatural?

I don't know. I'd leave that to those who claim it exists to show how.

 

[Cris]

Duendy,

so is 'natural' = matter/energy and 'supernatural' = subjective consciusness ?

Not quite. Natural is everything that can be derived from our physical environment and that includes what you call subjective consciousness.

Supernatural is anything that does not have a physical basis.

 

[duendy]

Duendy,

Not quite. Natural is everything that can be derived from our physical environment and that includes what you call subjective consciousness.

Supernatural is anything that does not have a physical basis.

this is a question that just pooped up. i am not trying to trip you up....yes. hehe

what is space?

 

[Cris]

LOL. Space is physical. It is the operational medium for physical phenomenon. While space between planets and stars might appear empty it neverless is the medium through which the forces of ellectromagnetism and gravity operate. At the subatomic level there are vast tracts of space between the relatively tiny particles of electrons, neutrons and protons and through which the strong and weak nuclear forces operate.

 

[duendy]

Duendy,

It’s called reverse engineering. How we measure it is a matter for developing science and experimentation. You seem to imply it can never be measured. Not sure how you can justify that perspective.

me_______you men about measuring consciousness? if you look at about te current 'Hard Problem' in cognitive science, you will understand whay it is called the hard problem--ttho you seem to imagine yo got it worked out.........it means that we can never actuakly know how another being, animal or human feels subjectively. yes we can study 'objectively' consciousness--sch as electrical activity, chemicals, behaviour etc, bt NOT the others ACTUAL unique inner experience. thus tis implies we cannot know consciouness in its enitireity

What do you mean by dead matter? Even an apparently lifeless rock has tremendous activity within its atomic structure. There is no clear boundary between life and non-life. Everything is a matter of attractive and repulsive forces.

me)))yes, but i know you are presuming that rock activity is blind forces aren't you. whati am saying is, no it's not. that that activity is sentient. Matter/energy is sentient--is conscious

No. There is no reason to conclude that consciousness is something independent of the brain.

me_____well that is what sentience means, tat consciousness does NOT just rely on human brains. i mean, the idea that human brins are like isands of consciousness in a vast sea of dead blind forces is really preposterous. an invention of materialism.

Gibberish.

More gibberish.

you are saying 'gibberish' in reponse to me saying matter/energy is alive, and can feel.
well explain to me tis...to mut have asked it before. how des subjective consciousness come about from so-called blind mechanical forces?.....suely it makes more sense to see te constituents that make up te brainbody as being already consciusness and then brain is a form of transformer......thi would also help t explain experiences where consciousness seems outside the body as with OBEs and NDEs.....!

 

[Cris]

Duendy,

how des subjective consciousness come about from so-called blind mechanical forces?.....

Why do you see this as a problem? How does the wonderful symmetrical beauty of a snowflake come about from so-called blind mechanical forces? How does liquid water form from two gasses due to so-called blind mechanical forces?

Just examine the periodic table and do some basic chemistry. These so-called blind mechanical forces are amazing. Choose any column and go down the list to see how just adding atomic weight can result in incredible differences to how these elements behave.

suely it makes more sense to see te constituents that make up te brainbody as being already consciusness and then brain is a form of transformer......

There are several problems with that. The first is that there is no precedent for anything being external to any human organ for it to function correctly, and secondly why assume the brain cannot perform this function? It is after all some 20,000 times more powerful than the best computers currently available.

thi would also help t explain experiences where consciousness seems outside the body as with OBEs and NDEs.....!

NDEs can be dismissed because the brain is always under severe trauma at those times, and no OBE claim has ever been recorded under scientifically independently controlled conditions. I.e. there is nothing to indicate that consciousness has a “separateness” from the brain.

 

[duendy]

Duendy,

Why do you see this as a problem? How does the wonderful symmetrical beauty of a snowflake come about from so-called blind mechanical forces? How does liquid water form from two gasses due to so-called blind mechanical forces?

mez------the snowflake, liquid water are sentient

Just examine the periodic table and do some basic chemistry. These so-called blind mechanical forces are amazing. Choose any column and go down the list to see how just adding atomic weight can result in incredible differences to how these elements behave.

mez_______drink some wine and lie back...?

There are several problems with that. The first is that there is no precedent for anything being external to any human organ for it to function correctly, and secondly why assume the brain cannot perform this function? It is after all some 20,000 times more powerful than the best computers currently available.

mez_____why would an organ wnt to work outside the human oganism, yet withOUT the environmet--which is intelligence also--it couldn't work at all. couldn't LIVEat all. neither could we!

NDEs can be dismissed because the brain is always under severe trauma at those times, and no OBE claim has ever been recorded under scientifically independently controlled conditions. I.e. there is nothing to indicate that consciousness has a “separateness” from the brain.

whay 'dismissed'..if say the brain flatlines and persons awareness sems to see body, room etc. why do you just brush this reported event off?...what is your actual explanation for NDE's and OBE's then?