Do Animals Have Souls?

[Cris]

Darkthorn,

Do you know for sure that the soul is non existent.

When something has no role to play its existence is the equivalent to its non-existence. What does a soul do?

I believe it is an energy but not an energy that dies as soon as the brain dies.

And what good is that? When the brain dies then all our memories and our ability to feel, think, and experience emotions, also die. What then is the value of a mystical soul if it has none of these attributes?

It is an energy connected to every other energy around us.

Why? What is its purpose? What is your evidence? Isn’t this just mystical gibberish?

Right now i do believe everything has a soul.

Because?

 

[KennyJC]

Have you ever died? Do you know for sure that the soul is non existent.

No, but I once never existed. Why didn't my soul exist before birth if it can exist after death?

If a theist is willing to jump through hoops and twist this around I bet many will say the soul exists before birth too. But if I am not aware of it before birth or after death, and it's 'energy' can not be detected transferring to the dimension of heaven/hell then what importance does this place?

Why is it hard to accept that the brain is what it is? Is it not romantic enough for you?

 

[DarkThorn]

haha.

What does romanticism have to do with anything. I am as capable of proving my ideas as you are yours. No one here wins. What if the soul has nothing to do with the brain. Like i said what if it is energy. Did i ever say the energy had to feel or think? It could just be like the force that is nature is..

You do not know of its existence before you are born because no energy has gone into your existence until you are created by the two energies that are your mother and father. I didn't think that would be so hard to figure out.

Again i cannot even prove nature is a force but you cannot tell me exactly how our brains work either or disprove souls exist. So we are on an equal footing here.

I believe in the soul and you do not.
Have a nice day.

 

[Cris]

Darkthorn,

No one here wins.

Except those with the stronger arguments whether it is admitted or not.

What if the soul has nothing to do with the brain.

Ok but why even suggest that? One of the original ideas for a soul was to explain thinking and emotions, now that idea has no merit. So why continue with a redundant idea?

Like i said what if it is energy.

To do what and why would we care?

Did i ever say the energy had to feel or think?

If it can’t then it will be useless in any type of afterlife, the primary reason to claim souls exist.

It could just be like the force that is nature is..

Nature isn’t a force.

.. i cannot even prove nature is a force but you cannot tell me exactly how our brains work

There have been enough clinical trials to establish that the brain controls thoughts and emotions. That pretty much displaces one of the primary antiquated ideas for a soul.

… or disprove souls exist.

Since they don’t appear to have any purpose then their claimed existence seems rather irrelevant.

 

[Tiassa]

I don't know about "souls", but if you've ever seen a monkey dance to the P-Funk, then you know they at least have soul.

 

[davewhite04]

Cris,


The soul was originally considered the source of thoughts and emotions, we now know the brain does all that.


Actually, we know what parts of the brain react when someone is thinking, but where is the evidence that prooves the brain is the source of a thought?(If you know what I mean)


Or one of credibility. That we have in our head the computing power equal to some 20,000 state of the art computers, or that we are driven by an imaginary, invisible, immaterial, undetectable, unobservable, supernatural, something.

Thus no one has the concrete answers, or else alot of real illnesses would be completely understood today, which of course they aren't.


Wake up - it doesn't exist.


Wake up - it might exist!

 

[Godless]

The soul of mysticism is non-existent. The soul-spirit of secularism, is that which I am, what defines me, my thoughts, emotions, rationalizations, in essense my spirit is the life force that defines my psychi. That exists and perishes the day of my death. (hopefully many many years from now )

It is wishfull thinking, the non-acceptance of death as final, that created the idea of soul, first Socrates tought it to Plato, Plato defined the soul as we know of it today, a seperate entity that exists within the body, the idea further developed by Christians. Only to manipulate their agenda, of god, and savior of our soul, from hell and the devil. The ingnorant masses buy in to the bull and have bought into the BS for centuries, manipulated by fear of death, and the promise of an eternal life of bliss if one was to have faith in their god & savior. The soul & guilt two of the best manipulating weapons of the elite church leaders to manipulate the ingnorant masses with their foolishness.

( Plato, drawing on the words of his teacher Socrates, considers the soul as the essence of a person, as that which decides how we act. He considered this essence as an incorporeal occupant of our being. The Platonic soul comprises three parts:

the reason (mind or logos)
the appetite (body or passion)
spirit (emotion or pathos).
Each of these has a function in a balanced and peaceful soul.)Ref.

Physics, philosophy and power

Godless

 

[poliwog]

perhaps the appendix's true purpose is to hold the soul

 

[Cris]

Davewhite,

The idea of the soul, that Godless described so well, was never based on any observations or detection, and with what we know of the brain why continue to speculate that there is anything supernatural within us? It has no basis and no credibility.

 

[ellion]

do this thread actually have a consensus to what the soul is or is not?
could someone tell me please?

 

[duendy]

Duendy,

Not sure what you are saying here. We do not fully understand how the brain operates. That is a problem to be solved.

me)))))well isn't 'how the brain OPERATES' a premise also? it is like talking about amachine. ie., a machine operates, but what IS subjectivity? does it feel mechanical to you? or is it someting unfathomable? i am aware tat it IS a 'hardproblem' of science for the very reason of notleaving it there....what will it mean investigating this in the Scientific age? whatwould happen if it became awared Nature is sentient?....that we go from thinking ourselves as isolated units of consciousness in a sea of 'blind' matter/energy?

Are you suggesting we insert mysticism into a scientific investigation?

i am not for mysticism at all.in fact it was the very mystical wschools which psycholigcally separated the idea of the 'spirit' from Nature...!---for example,te first anceint mystery school in anceint Greece. Orphism believed a 'divine spark' was trapped in the human body, which tey believed was a kind of tomb. there saying was 'soma sema- meaning'the body a tomb'---They sought eventual return to the 'spiritual'

i am not saying that at all. i amsaying that a mindset has identified itself wit its analytical logical 'function', in pally wit its knowledge of 'unchanging' stella world, and then ASSUMES that 'spirit'/MAN's mind is superior to Body, Woman, Nature, emotions feelings......THAT psychological split has been maintained for millennia---its modern 'scientific' modification is the 'mind/brain problem'

but as said, the Hard Problem people are asking: how is it subjective awareness can come from 'dead' matter. THAt would hafe to be a miracle, and science doesn'tDo miracles, as you know. and i am not suggestin it is a miracle either......so, the implication is very much , Nature IS sentient, IS Intelligence~ing

 

[Cris]

Duendy,

OK but I really don't see a problem here. I can certainly visualize a certain threshold level of neural complexity giving rise to an emmergent property that some have called consciousness. Much like if you place enough small bricks together in the right arrangement you end up with a house.

You could call the house just a collection of bricks which would be true, but you cannot doubt that 'house' is something that is greater than the sum of the parts, i.e. an emergent property.

Consciousness is a term I find imprecise when what we really mean is self-awareness. That is the distinction between just a set of mechanical functions and what we understand as human. Some animals, dogs, and other primates exibit some degree of this property and the main difference between them and us is brain complexity.

How we replicate that complexity in the computing lab is the next fascinating task for humanity.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

do this thread actually have a consensus to what the soul is or is not? could someone tell me please?

*************
M*W: It do. The consensus be bioelectric energy. Mines dictionary say it do.

 

[Nisus]

The concept of the soul, is grounded and centered on faith. The purpose is to believe in it, though there is no tangible evidence of it. Believe in the individual worth of a creature, a creation a human etc, that extends beyond a temporal of physical plane.

In demanding evidence you're trying to undermine the whole basis of what believing is about--not having tangible evidence.

Right now there is no means to prove that souls exist, but there is all the room in the world to believe that they do.

The moment you have evidence it is no longer a belief; it turns into knowledge and testimony.

I believe all living creatures have a soul.

 

[Cris]

Nisus,

The concept of the soul, is grounded and centered on faith.

Because it is an imaginary explanation that fits the religious fundamental need to demonstrate how one can cheat death. Remember there is nothing remarkable or useful about believing something on faith – that simply means belief without proof.

The purpose is to believe in it, though there is no tangible evidence of it.

This will sound tiresome, but why feel convinced that something is true without evidence? I remain dumfounded at such an approach.

Believe in the individual worth of a creature, a creation a human etc, that extends beyond a temporal of physical plane.

Why not instead believe in the worth of the individual that clearly exists here and now?

In demanding evidence you're trying to undermine the whole basis of what believing is about--not having tangible evidence.

It is a matter of determining what is true and what is not. Without evidence you cannot know that what you believe has any truth. The absence of evidence already undermines the concept of a soul.

Right now there is no means to prove that souls exist,

Agreed.

but there is all the room in the world to believe that they do.

Quite the contrary – a soul has no obvious need to exist apart from satisfying religious fantasies.

The moment you have evidence it is no longer a belief; it turns into knowledge and testimony.

I.e. becomes knowledge and enters the realm of science where it can be studied and understood.

I believe all living creatures have a soul.

Why?

 

[KennyJC]

Nisus - The best post you have done so far! You are spot on - You don't need evidence for a soul, you can just believe it exists.

 

[KennyJC]

Just a follow up question to the existence of a soul: Why do we want to live forever? Life is ok and all, but I don't want it to last forever. Wether that be digging at rock in a firey pit, or playing tennis with angels, I do not wish the positive feelings or the negative feelings of the brain played out for eternity. And even more so, do not see the point.

 

[Cris]

Kenny,

Ok so then why do you want to die? Since it's permanent you won't be able to change your mind afterwards.

I can understand how some would say this if their lives are constantly stressful and the thought of eternity living with stress is not attractive. But that can change as you become more experienced with life and build reasonable financial conditions.

The future looks like it will be entirely fascinating and I'd like to be a part of that. I cannot concieve otherwise. So I'm curious about your outlook.

 

[Nisus]

I don't believe that many people have a firm enough understanding of Eternity to really judge wether they would like to be there forever or not. People spend a majority of their life, eating, sleeping and for the most part just doing average-meaningless things.

Everyone has just enough time to witness what it's like to live before it is whisked away from before them.

Life is a short sweet taste. And a bitter one too.

If we were to spend more time testing out what is possible, and impossible, what can and what can't be--having a greater influence--rather than just taking what we get--perhaps then we could have a greater appreciation for what it is, under firmer judgement.

As for now we just kind of comment as it passes us by and we pass through it, till the train comes and sweeps us off the tracks.

 

[KennyJC]

Kenny,

Ok so then why do you want to die? Since it's permanent you won't be able to change your mind afterwards.

I can understand how some would say this if their lives are constantly stressful and the thought of eternity living with stress is not attractive. But that can change as you become more experienced with life and build reasonable financial conditions.

The future looks like it will be entirely fascinating and I'd like to be a part of that. I cannot concieve otherwise. So I'm curious about your outlook.

Being trapped. Regardless of the quality of an eternal life, just conciously always existing and you have no say in it...

Mortality is great.