Did Nothing Create Everything?

[SetiAlpha6]

We're not even talking about scientists here. We're talking about historians and Biblical scholars.


I said it isn't in the Bible. Your idea of multi-ethnic slaves escaping from Egypt is not in the Bible - or in history or in archaeology either.

OK, thanks.

There might be hints of multi-ethnic slaves in the Exodus from Egypt, in the Bible, and that is certainly possible, but may not be provable.

In the Exodus Account some of the people worshipped other Gods and had a difficult time worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This could indicate that some of them were from other ethnic backgrounds.

Probably not the strongest case ever, but nothing would have stopped them from joining the group to escape the slavery they were all living under.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

A possible date, I will throw out there, for the Exodus is 1446 B.C.

According to 1 Kings 6:1, the exodus occurred 480 years prior to the laying of the foundations of Solomon’s temple. Solomon undertook this in his fourth year, 966 B.C.

966 B.C. + 480 yrs. = 1446 B.C.

 

[(Q)]

Here are some of the parallel points of agreement between the Ipuwer Papyrus and the Exodus...

Ipuwer Papyrus: Behold, Egypt is fallen to pouring of water, and he who poured water on the ground has carried off the strong man in misery.
Exodus Account: (Moses poured water on the ground which turned all of the drinking water to blood, including the river. Moses defeated Pharaoh in misery with the 10 Plagues.)

Ipuwer Papyrus: Indeed, the children of princes are dashed against walls, and the children of the neck are laid out on the high ground.
Exodus Account: (In the story of the Exodus, the Angel of Death visited all the first born of the land.)

Ipuwer Papyrus: Indeed, public offices are opened and their inventories are taken away;
Exodus Account: (Pharaoh gave everything to the departing Israelites that they needed or wanted.)

Ipuwer Papyrus: Indeed, the river is blood, yet men drink of it.
Exodus Account: (Moses turned the river to blood and men thirst, but have nothing else to drink.)

Ipuwer Papyrus: Behold, men tread [the water] like fishes, and the frightened man cannot distinguish it because of terror.
Exodus Account: (The Egyptian Army followed the Israelites into the great depths of the sea and were drowned by the water.)

Ipuwer Papyrus: the tribes of the desert have become Egyptians everywhere.
Exodus Account: (The initial immigration of the Israelites and others into Egypt.)

Ipuwer Papyrus: I have separated him and his household slaves
Exodus Account: (The slaves of Pharaoh left the households of their Egyptian Masters.)

There are a few more...
You can certainly research it more if you wish to and decide for yourself.

Sorry, but when I read the Ipuwer account and then the Exodus account, I can't really see a connection, perhaps maybe a very vague connection, but certainly not a direct one. It would seem that it would have been so much easier to write the Ipuwer so that it does connect directly with the Exodus account, which is most likely why scholars believe it has nothing to do with the Exodus account.

 

[(Q)]

Here are some of the parallel points of agreement between the Ipuwer Papyrus and the Exodus...

There are a few more...
You can certainly research it more if you wish to and decide for yourself.

Here is the full account of the Ipuwer, one can read through it to see the entire account does not sound like the Exodus account at all.

"One can only accept The Admonitions of Ipuwer as history if one has little or no knowledge of Egyptian history and literature."

https://www.ancient.eu/article/981/the-admonitions-of-ipuwer/

 

[paddoboy]

Ok, so far it looks like anyone who believes that Nothing created Everything has only a faith position and little more. Glad we all admit that!

Nonsense! Some points...We have no evidence at all for any supposed creator or designer, and actually no need for one at least as far back as t+ 10-43 seconds. The universe from that point can be reasonably, scientifically and adequately explained, so much so that the Catholic church recognise the BB and theory of evolution, which if you care to think about it invalidates the bible, remembering that the bible you put so much trust in, is an obscure book, with obscure ideas, written in an obscure age by some obscure individuals.
The time before t=10-43 seconds is unknown although some speculative scientific ideas do exist. The point for you to ponder is that our definition of "nothing" may need modifying. The quantum foam at this time may be the closest to nothing we can get...it may effectively be nothing. If that is the case then scientists such as Krauss has shown how this nothingness [the quantum foam] is unstable and part of that instability was where the BB emerged.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Theoretical Egyptian Pharaoh Chronology of the Exodus (Hypothesis)

By Bruce Gore

The New Kingdom (1570-1070)

The Eighteenth Dynasty (1570-1293)

Ahmose (1570-1546)

Amenhotep I (1551-1524)

Thutmose I (1524-1518)

Thutmose II & Hatshepsut (1518-1504)

Thutmose III & Hatshepsut (1504-1498)

Hatshepsut (1498-1483)
Preferred trading to raiding
Built extravagant mortuary temple – to legitimize herself as a rightful Pharaoh
A propaganda piece – showing she was a rightful Pharaoh according to the Gods.
Moses would have been about 30 years of age at the beginning of her reign in 1498.
Hatshepsut was likely grooming Moses to be her successor.
Thutmose III returned with vengeance in the 1480s.
Hatshepsut disappears from record (dies) in the mid 1480’s.
Leaves Moses unprotected by his stepmother Hatshepsut.
Moses investigates his heritage and ethnic tie to the Hebrew slaves.
Moses kills an Egyptian who was beating a Hebrew slave.
Thutmose III uses this opportunity to try and kill Moses, to remove his rival for power.
He issues a death penalty order against Moses.

Moses flees from Egypt and settles in Midian (current day Saudi Arabia) to avoid capture and the death penalty. Midian is outside of the Borders of Egypt proper and beyond Egyptian controlled mines and lands in the Sinai Peninsula.

Thutmose III (1483-1450)
With Moses out of the way, Thutmose III acquires the throne.
Became one of the greatest military geniuses in Egyptian history.
During this time Moses is living in Midian tending Jethro’s sheep.
Worked to rid Egypt of some of the memory of Hatshepsut, his stepmother.
Did not succeed in removing her completely.
Became one of Egypt’s most celebrated military Pharaohs.
Extends Egyptian borders to the South into Nubia (Ethiopia),
and pushes North in a major campaign into Caenen,
all the way to the South border of the Hittite empire.
The border city of conflict between the two empires was Kadesh.

Amenhotep II (1450-1419) - The Pharaoh of the Exodus (Theoretical)
Young, proud, arrogant, athletic, and ambitious. Full of himself.
A granite stele shows Amenhotep II shooting arrows from horseback, probably an accurate representation.
First years of reign engaged in aggressive campaigns of expansion and control.
1447-1446 At the age of 80 Moses comes into his courtroom and says,

“Let My People Go”

There were 10 Plagues. They represented a calculated sequential attack on the Gods of Egypt. In the Plagues the Egyptian Gods are even shown to be attacking the Egyptians themselves. With the last Plague directed as a focused attack on Pharaoh himself who claimed to be the very Presence of God on Earth. The Plagues may have lasted up to a year until Amenhotep II relented in 1446 B.C.

Moses leads the Israelites “out of Egypt” to worship God at the Mountain of God (Mt Sinai, Mt Horeb) in His very Presence.

 

[paddoboy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

The Exodus is the charter myth of the Israelites.[1][a] Spread over the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, it tells the story of the enslavement of the Israelites in ancient Egypt, their liberation through the hand of their tutelary deityYahweh, the revelations at biblical Mount Sinai, and their wanderings in the wilderness up to the borders of Canaan, the land their god has given them.

extract:
The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel, which formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[6][7][8] Most scholars nevertheless believe that the story has some historical basis, even if this little resembles the story told in the Bible.[9][10] There is a widespread agreement that the composition of the Torah or Pentateuch, the biblical books which contain the Exodus narrative, took place in the Middle Persian Period (5th century BCE),[11] although the traditions behind it are older and can be found in the writings of the 8th-century BCE prophets.[12][13]

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Here is the full account of the Ipuwer, one can read through it to see the entire account does not sound like the Exodus account at all.

"One can only accept The Admonitions of Ipuwer as history if one has little or no knowledge of Egyptian history and literature."

https://www.ancient.eu/article/981/the-admonitions-of-ipuwer/

I disagree, but thanks for considering the information carefully and for reaching your own conclusion!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

The Exodus is the charter myth of the Israelites.[1][a] Spread over the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, it tells the story of the enslavement of the Israelites in ancient Egypt, their liberation through the hand of their tutelary deityYahweh, the revelations at biblical Mount Sinai, and their wanderings in the wilderness up to the borders of Canaan, the land their god has given them.

extract:
The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel, which formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[6][7][8] Most scholars nevertheless believe that the story has some historical basis, even if this little resembles the story told in the Bible.[9][10] There is a widespread agreement that the composition of the Torah or Pentateuch, the biblical books which contain the Exodus narrative, took place in the Middle Persian Period (5th century BCE),[11] although the traditions behind it are older and can be found in the writings of the 8th-century BCE prophets.[12][13]

Yes, I quote that in my presentations as the current view. Thanks for posting it!

 

[paddoboy]

Yes, I quote that in my presentations as the current view. Thanks for posting it!

Current view? It says plainly based on myth. Hey Seti, nothing wrong in someone needing a god or whatever to give them some warm inner glow, but gee, don't you believe you should stick to facts and not pretend?

 

[(Q)]

Theoretical Egyptian Pharaoh Chronology of the Exodus (Hypothesis)

By Bruce Gore

Amenhotep II (1450-1419) - The Pharaoh of the Exodus (Theoretical)
Young, proud, arrogant, athletic, and ambitious. Full of himself.
A granite stele shows Amenhotep II shooting arrows from horseback, probably an accurate representation.
First years of reign engaged in aggressive campaigns of expansion and control.
1447-1446 At the age of 80 Moses comes into his courtroom and says,

“Let My People Go”

There were 10 Plagues. They represented a calculated sequential attack on the Gods of Egypt. In the Plagues the Egyptian Gods are even shown to be attacking the Egyptians themselves. With the last Plague directed as a focused attack on Pharaoh himself who claimed to be the very Presence of God on Earth. The Plagues may have lasted up to a year until Amenhotep II relented in 1446 B.C.

Interesting that no such information was available on Amenhotep II regarding Moses, slaves or an exodus. Where does Bruce get his information?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Current view? It says plainly based on myth. Hey Seti, nothing wrong in someone needing a god or whatever to give them some warm inner glow, but gee, don't you believe you should stick to facts and not pretend?

Myths usually do not have extensive evidence on the ground to back them up.
The Exodus Account does.

Yes, I know, they keep saying there is no evidence.

 

[(Q)]

I disagree, but thanks for considering the information carefully and for reaching your own conclusion!

How could anyone possibly disagree. Oh wait, scholars don't disagree, it is only those who know nothing of Egyptian history and literature that do.

Btw, the conclusion was drawn by scholars, folks far more educated than you or I on the subject.

 

[(Q)]

Myths usually do not have extensive evidence on the ground to back them up.
The Exodus Account does.

Yes, I know, they keep saying there is no evidence.

Because there isn't any evidence on the ground or anywhere else.

 

[paddoboy]

Myths usually do not have extensive evidence on the ground to back them up.
The Exodus Account does.

Yes, I know, they keep saying there is no evidence.

Yes, science is about establishing evidence for a position. The science and the expert accounts doubt the authenticity of this subject

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Interesting that no such information was available on Amenhotep II regarding Moses, slaves or an exodus. Where does Bruce get his information?

He basically has put together a "theoretical" chronology combining the current state of knowledge of the Egyptian Dynasties and the chronology presented in the Bible. He created a hybrid view combining the two.
It is only a hypothesis.

 

[(Q)]

He basically has put together a "theoretical" chronology combining the current state of knowledge of the Egyptian Dynasties and the chronology presented in the Bible. He created a hybrid view combining the two.
It is only a hypothesis.

Unfortunately, the current state of knowledge does not have any such chronology, so he must be just making it up as he goes along. He mentions no sources for his claims, he merely asserts the information without and facts or evidence.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Because there isn't any evidence on the ground or anywhere else.

They have been looking in the wrong place.

As I mentioned before, Saudi Arabia has just opened up their country for Tourism of the Mountain of God, the Split Rock, the Golden Calf Altar Site, the Blackened Peak of the Mountain of God, the Altar of Moses, the Cave of Elijah at the Mountain, the Caves of Jethro in Midian, the Oasis at Elim, the numerous Petroglyphs left by the Hebrews in the area, and the Gravesite from the events that occurred at the Mountain. All of it is just sitting out there.

All of these Sites in Saudi Arabia match the Exodus Account in the Bible perfectly.

Here are a few links on the topic...

https://www.foxnews.com/world/saudi-arabia-christian-tour

https://livingpassages.com/christian-tours/saudi-arabia/

https://doubtingthomasresearch.com/

http://realmountsinai.com/explore

https://splitrockresearch.org/

The Google Earth Coordinates for the Altar of Moses at The Mountain of God are...
Latitude: 28°35'5.22"N
Longitude: 35°22'43.48"E

Just copy and past the following coordinates...
28°35'5.22"N, 35°22'43.48"E
into the Search Bar in Google Earth and hit enter.

In the left hand panel, at the very bottom under "Layers" check the "Terrain" box to turn on 3-D Terrain. If you want, you can also check the "Google Earth Community" box as well. Oh and maybe also check the "Photos" box.

Zoom out and take a look around, if you wish!

The Golden Calf Altar Site is at...
28°34'53.05"N, 35°23'46.42"E

The Blackened Peak from the Presence of God is at...
28°35'0.91"N, 35°20'55.47"E

The Split Rock is at...
28°43'35.75"N, 35°14'10.53"E

A possible location for the Burning Bush is...
28°37'3.22"N, 35°19'41.80"E

The Caves of Jethro in Midian are at...
28°29'17.60"N, 34°59'59.09"E

The Well of Moses is at...
28°29'8.01"N, 35° 1'7.12"E

I have on the ground photos of most of it.

 

[paddoboy]

I have on the ground photos of most of it.

You have photos of doubtful claims, made to support the overall myth of the bible, which the Catholic church has effectively revealed to be a book of parables, myths and story telling written in an obscure age by obscure people with even more obscure double/triple meanings.

 

[paddoboy]

Do you believe that Nothing created Everything?

If you do, please prove it.

Science is not about proof.
The evidence for the evolution of spacetime is supported by much evidence, so much so, that the Catholic church recognises the BB model along with the evolution of life.
The second point that I mentioned previously is how we should define nothing. Perhaps the closest we can get to nothing is the quantum foam the BB arose/evolved from.