Did Muhammad actually exist?

[S.A.M.]

So you would break up a marriage, hurt someone's feelings and destroy someone's confidence rather than lie? If a lie could save someone's life, what would be of greater importance to you? The truth or someone's life?

 

[(Q)]

So you would break up a marriage, hurt someone's feelings and destroy someone's confidence rather than lie? If a lie could save someone's life, what would be of greater importance to you? The truth or someone's life?

What does all that have to do with a religion that promotes lying? :shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

What does all that have to do with a religion that promotes lying? :shrug:

There's Anne Frank, for instance. If the Nazis asked you where she was hiding and you knew, what would you say?

 

[(Q)]

There's Anne Frank, for instance. If the Nazis asked you where she was hiding and you knew, what would you say?

What does all that have to do with a religion that promotes lying? :shrug:

 

[Myles]

What does all that have to do with a religion that promotes lying? :shrug:

I honestly don't want to set a hare running but there have been cases here in the UK where terrorism has been promoted in at least one mosque. The "faithful" know the people involved because they are part of the community. Nobody speaks out so one can only assume tacit support for one's fellow-muslims or fear of reprisal.

There is no effort made to help the police with their enquires. Those questioned seem to lie or avoid answering direct questions.
A religion of peace, my arse.

 

[S.A.M.]

What does all that have to do with a religion that promotes lying? :shrug:

I'm curious to know if you would promote lying under those circumstances. Surely, you have read under what conditions lying is permitted [not promoted]

I honestly don't want to set a hare running but there have been cases here in the UK where terrorism has been promoted in at least one mosque.
A religion of peace, my arse.

Wow, that sure covers 1.5 billion Muslims, eh?

By promoting such generalisations against Muslims, what is your contribution to the peace process?

 

[(Q)]

I'm curious to know if you would promote lying under those circumstances. Surely, you have read under what conditions lying is permitted [not promoted]

Lying is acceptable. Scriptures. Lying is acceptable. Scriptures. Lying is acceptable.

No, I still don't see the connection. Again, explain it to me, why would a religion that promotes peace consider lying as perfectly acceptable?

what is your contribution to the peace process?

Relegate religions to the category of myth?

 

[S.A.M.]

Lying is acceptable. Scriptures. Lying is acceptable. Scriptures. Lying is acceptable.

No, I still don't see the connection. Again, explain it to me, why would a religion that promotes peace consider lying as perfectly acceptable?

If you go back and look at the examples I gave you, perhaps you'll get it. Then again if you are the kind of person who will sacrifice others on the altar of your truth you may not.

 

[(Q)]

If you go back and look at the examples I gave you, perhaps you'll get it.

You're avoiding the question. Surprise!

 

[S.A.M.]

it's a bullshit question. I don't know any rational person who thinks that lying under the circumstances given in the Hadith, which, btw, are NOT scriptures, is not justified

 

[John99]

Please post the link. Ta.

I dont remember the exact link, it was posted a few days ago, i am sure you know which one i am talking about. So w are you asking?

 

[Michael]

Yeah, the Hadiths, they even tell you the level of credibility, unlike western "scholars" who merely quote rubbish.

Another ad hominem attack? "Western Scholars" heh.. yeah, riiiiight.

So, the Hadiths yea, what happened to "I'm a Qur'an only Muslism"? Remember when I had the question of whether Mohammad had that singing slave girl's head chopped off shoulders, which accordingly he had, then your response was to poo hoo the Hadith - it was tainted by a dirty Christian you see.

Anyway, regarding the letters - where do I find out WHO discovered them, WHEN they were discovered, What CARBON DATE were the measured to, etc...

 

[S.A.M.]

You're the one quoting the Hadith for the Prophets sexual stamina. Hence, I suggested it as a source. No different from the ones Patricia Crone is using, are they?

Lets see what you turn up on the letters.

 

[Michael]

SAM,

What sources? You haven't provided ANY evidence other than an online site that says 5 letters exist. But, it doesn't say anything else. So, considering that these letters were never referred to by historians of Islam, I want to know more about them.

Please, provide a set of citations so we can uncover who discovered them, when, where, how, what the carbon dating shows, why weren't they referred to in Cones work, etc...

YOU posted the letters, now I'm just asking for clarification.

 

[S.A.M.]

I provided you the same sources, or equivalent of, that you provided me. Even the same authors. [Crone, Hadiths].

I fail to see exactly what you are whining about.

 

[Michael]

SAM,

What the hell are you talking about. You have not provided any sources regarding the letters supposedly written by someone on behalf of Mohammad and sent to various people.

So, do you have a peer reviewed scholarly reference concerning these 5 letters? If so post it, if not then retract the statement that these letters are genuine.

So, in short, if you post another time on this thread then include a peer reviewed reference that I can look up in my library or don't bother posting to this thread.

It's that simple.

Michael

 

[DiamondHearts]

SAM, some people just like to hear the sound of their voice and avoid debate as much as possible. One thing I learned which is present in 99% of the members on this forum.

If someone is not going to listen respectfully to an answer to their question, why then ask this question?

Respect of other people on this forum is something which is not present here. I have not yet figured out the reason, but I assume it has something to do with the majority of members on this forum being atheists.

Respect of other human beings is important, and I wonder how an individual can call himself a 'humanist' when he is so violent in his reaction to others who he does not even know.

 

[Michael]

And yet another ad hominem attack?

Simply for asking for a link to peer reviewed academic reference in regards to the letters? One that I can look up who made each letters discovery, their carbon dating, etc.. If the letters have been examined then this should be a snap.



RE: Medicine Woman; Did Muhammad actually exist?

While initially I thought these letters were intriguing, it now seems likely that they are completely fraudulent. Considering Muslims don't even know when the Qur'an was written (nor who wrote which parts of it) I can only assume these mythical letters are part of the mythical packaging Islam is stuffed full of.

In short, it looks like the only contemporary letter may be a Greek description of a desert war lord. Which, while, given Islam's history, does fit snugly, isn't exactly "Proof" per say.

Summary, Mohammad probably existed as a war lord, but, may just as easily be a compilation character or even fictional like Jesus.

Michael


NOTE: It must burn Muslims to acknowledge that early Muslim raiders didn't consider the Qur'an of enough importance to take a brake from pillaging, get off their horse and make a clay copy. At least we can all agree to that much.

 

[(Q)]

it's a bullshit question. I don't know any rational person who thinks that lying under the circumstances given in the Hadith, which, btw, are NOT scriptures, is not justified

Asking the reason for something you consider justified is not bullshit. What IS bullshit is the promotion of lying by your religion and your reluctance to answer the question why. I didn't ask you whether or not you thought the reasons were justified, I asked why a religion of peace promotes lying?

What's so hard about that?

You Muslims seem to make all sorts of demands on everyone else, but fall short of providing anything yourselves other than lies.

 

[(Q)]

SAM, some people just like to hear the sound of their voice and avoid debate as much as possible. One thing I learned which is present in 99% of the members on this forum.

With numbers so predominantly skewed to the majority, you may want to look instead to the 1% that is most likely the crux of the problem; YOU.

If someone is not going to listen respectfully to an answer to their question, why then ask this question?

The answers are boldface lies. How does one respect someone else when that someone always lies?

Respect of other people on this forum is something which is not present here. I have not yet figured out the reason, but I assume it has something to do with the majority of members on this forum being atheists.

Atheists don't respect liars. Simple really.

Respect of other human beings is important, and I wonder how an individual can call himself a 'humanist' when he is so violent in his reaction to others who he does not even know.

See, all you do is lie. There's no violence.