Did Muhammad actually exist?
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
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M*W: If she's hiding (which she did), then no one would know. I would suffer the consequences. I would not betray a friend nor anyone.
I've actually been to Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam. You cannot visit it without crying. You can feel the emotions of a young Jewish girl. Betrayal is the worst thing a person could do. Bless her heart.
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M*W: I'm glad I asked the question. I am a fair-minded person who has been unbiased where Islam is concerned. I must say that I have learned a lot from my question. Lying serves no one, not even the liar. A religion that advocates lying is a lie itself.
Thank you for your insight.
MW said:
So now all Muslims must needs be labeled as liars, because their religious scholars accept that under some certain circumstances, a lie is more righteous than truth. Congratulations on your enlightenment. (Q) will be thrilled. I shall now consider all atheists as unworthy of a confidence. Clearly, they would sacrifice anyone and anything to their false ideologies and cannot be trusted.
Michael:
I did give you references. Unless you are claiming that only white men in western society are to be considered valid references. In that case, perhaps you'd be better off asking a white man in a western society rather than a "coloured woman" from a Third world country.
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I don't think the majority of civilizations thought 1000 years in advance. I also don't believe that it was at all common practice to translate things to clay copies. This is especially true if they were following the laws of valid documentation at the time. These laws implied that things had to be written on an object which wax could be layered on top of it smoothly, that way if the wax was altered doctoring could be detected.
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M*W: S.A.M., why are you so defensive? It has clearly been established that Muslims are liars. That's what their religion alludes to. How can you deny this factor? You are the one who stated it first... that it's okay for Muslims to lie, but not to each other! That pretty well sums it up. You are an adherent to a religion that propagates lying. That's as bad as christianity! Please tell me what you believe and when lying is a favorable condition. As long as you don't lie to each other, it's kosher.
I have always been fair in my opinion about religion, but this really takes the cake for Muslims. What is it that you feel the need to lie about? I am shocked and appalled that your religion advocates lying.
The Arabic culture was based on oral transmission and in the lifetime of Mohammed, Umar started the practice of qiraat, enrolling 400 students at a time. I don't know any good scholar of Islam [from the west] who questions that the Quran is anything other than what was dictated by Mohammed. There are some arguments about its collection, but these are based on what most western people see based on what other western people did at the time [e.g. Michael and his clay tablets]
Please show where I said this.
Also, as lying by omission is also lying, I suggest you inform all your Muslim friends of this epiphany immediately and save yourself from their lies. As a non-promoter of lies [being a truthful atheist under all circumstances] you would not want to be counted among those that feel a need to lie about anything.
Please show where I said this.
Also, as lying by omission is also lying, I suggest you inform all your Muslim friends of this epiphany immediately and save yourself from their lies. As a non-promoter of lies [being a truthful atheist under all circumstances] you would not want to be counted among those that feel a need to lie about anything.
Lying by omission is lying. If you pretend to be the friend of someone when you think they are liars and their religion is a lie, it makes you a liar.
According to me, MW is a liar:
So I can't have Muslim or Christian friends? I think the lying they do is unintentional...so is it still lying by ommission? Even in my own people there are some opinions that are arrived about by ommission...is it intentional or not? It's not possible to know.
Your absolutism in the situation really argues your own forthgoing. Shall I cite every truth in the world to make any evidence of a truth? If that's the case, there would be no disagreements and not enough paper in the world for even one argument. For example, I just ommited the true definiton of "absolutism" but I didn't specify what form of absolutism. Is such an ommision potentially a lie if we have disagreements on the definition of absolutism?
Closer to the topic, is such an ommission of clear evidence for Muhammed a lie if you claim he existed? There's much evidence ommited when proving he DID or DID NOT exist. If you look at my stance, I have said he did. Therefore, do I need to be called a liar for my INTENTIONAL ommision of opposing sources?
I agree with them. The attempt SHOULD be of any man who claims to be a prophet, to persuade the people to the position that is correct. Why should truth be compromised for peace? Isn't this discussed in Jeremiah as being a foolish thing? Isn't it also described in Numbers numerous times?
Doesn't crying "PEACE" actually prolong the diagreements into a nearly epic disagreement? Isn't avoiding answering fundamental questions what's really driving us to war?
SAM, why do you continue to belittle me and my people? When will you begin to realize the disagreement isn't held in blood? When will you discuss the topic at hand and NOT bring up hateful unrelated statements?
I try to be reasonable to you, and often support your claims and logic. When I do it turns into you arguing with me...and then insulting me.
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M*W: S.A.M., who are you to call me a liar? Your religion promotes lying. It is you who is the liar. You've dug yourself in to deepm and you can't get out of the pit. Even knowing what I do about you, I am still fair to other religions. You are a dedicated liar lying in a forum of your peers. When do you think you will fess up to your religious lying? I don't think you will ever be able to do that. Is that what Muslims do? I never knew that! I have many Muslim friends (from India), and I would never accuse them of lying. I think you are different, S.A.M.; I think you are the exception. You will never express the truth on this forum. It really disgusts me that you are a mod. How you came to be a mod, I guess only the higher brass will know. You are a fake and a liar. You are an abomination to other Muslims I know. Anything you may say from here on in will be considered a lie. You are not a representative of other Muslims. There are some Muslims who earn respect and live a good life even through their religion. You, OTOH, are an abomination to your religion. I only hope the other mods are aware of your silly game.
How can you even say you are a scientist? You can't. You let your fakey religion get in the way. I will never compare you to my Muslim friends. They are honorable, but you, my friend, are a farce.
Given that lying can be good if the intended outcome is good, how can you be sure your scholars are truthful ?
The Hadith?
You mean statements like this?
"In 1848, Gustav Weil, noted that Muhammad al-Bukhari deemed only 4,000 of his original 600,000 hadiths to be authentic and argued that a European critic was required to reject without hesitation at least half of these 4,000. He was soon followed by Aloys Sprenger, who also suggests that many of the hadiths cannot be considered authentic [12]."
Gee, how do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith
You mean statements like this?
"In 1848, Gustav Weil, noted that Muhammad al-Bukhari deemed only 4,000 of his original 600,000 hadiths to be authentic and argued that a European critic was required to reject without hesitation at least half of these 4,000. He was soon followed by Aloys Sprenger, who also suggests that many of the hadiths cannot be considered authentic [12]."
Gee, how do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith