Did Mohammad sin???
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
It is as equivalent to the nonsense you are bleating.
Yet, another theist who doesn't understand communism as the ideological institution which replaces god as the ultimate arbiter, as a another god.
What nonsense have I been bleating?
Hehe, You obviously dont understand what I said at all. You say it has the same ideology as religion. Skinwalker said Islam is the most violent religion. Following your argument that Communism has the same ideology as religion, we can count it as another form of religion right?
There are too many posts to quote.
Hehe, You obviously dont understand what I said at all. You say it has the same ideology as religion. Skinwalker said Islam is the most violent religion. Following your argument that Communism has the same ideology as religion, we can count it as another form of religion right?
Right.
And yes, I do understand what you said. It is the same propagandized crap every other Muslim spouts about their cult.
This pretty much sums up Islam to me.
I'm still unclear what exactly does this verse mean to you?
[48:1] We have bestowed upon you (O Messenger) a great victory.
[48:2] Whereby GOD forgives your past sins, as well as future sins, and perfects His blessings upon you, and guides you in a straight path.
[48:1] We have bestowed upon you (O Messenger) a great victory.
[48:2] Whereby GOD forgives your past sins, as well as future sins, and perfects His blessings upon you, and guides you in a straight path.
It's funny, we have a God that can do anything and therefor God must be able to produce a "perfect" book as a guidance for mankind to live in harmony with each other while at the same time condemning violence. If God can do anything then this is a possibility.
Agreed.
Yet Arsalan posts that people can be dealt with by minor punishments or major FOR DISRUPTING HARMONY!?!? Because the Qur'an is considered "perfect" by Muslims this then means that a book that justifies "major punishment" (ex: killing) is more "perfect" than a book that condemns it.
This explains a lot of why the ME and south east Asia is in such a mess.
IMO if there were a God it would be able to come up with something at least as enlightening as Buddha in regards to the human condition other than: Auuuugghhh You Bad You Die Now. What kind of crap is this?
If a book is perfect then people will accept it on it's merit. Why would people need to be coerced by sword or tax or law? They simply read this "perfect" book and say themselves. Ahhhh now I get it.
In reality, other then the people who have been taught to beleive the Qur'an is perfect since they were children the overwhelming responce of non-Muslims towards the Worlds Perfect Book has been there is little to nothing of merit in the book. What does that say? World leading Philosophers have read the book and came away with nothing. Nothing.
I often ask (and am responded to with a resounding silence): What exactly is there in the Qur'an that is so enlightening? Is there anything at all in the Qur'an that is "new" that is "novel" and could be considered "enlightening" on the human condition? If there is please post it - if not then we must conclude the book is a hack.
Michael
Agreed.
Yet Arsalan posts that people can be dealt with by minor punishments or major FOR DISRUPTING HARMONY!?!? Because the Qur'an is considered "perfect" by Muslims this then means that a book that justifies "major punishment" (ex: killing) is more "perfect" than a book that condemns it.
This explains a lot of why the ME and south east Asia is in such a mess.
IMO if there were a God it would be able to come up with something at least as enlightening as Buddha in regards to the human condition other than: Auuuugghhh You Bad You Die Now. What kind of crap is this?
If a book is perfect then people will accept it on it's merit. Why would people need to be coerced by sword or tax or law? They simply read this "perfect" book and say themselves. Ahhhh now I get it.
In reality, other then the people who have been taught to beleive the Qur'an is perfect since they were children the overwhelming responce of non-Muslims towards the Worlds Perfect Book has been there is little to nothing of merit in the book. What does that say? World leading Philosophers have read the book and came away with nothing. Nothing.
I often ask (and am responded to with a resounding silence): What exactly is there in the Qur'an that is so enlightening? Is there anything at all in the Qur'an that is "new" that is "novel" and could be considered "enlightening" on the human condition? If there is please post it - if not then we must conclude the book is a hack.
Michael
Yes, unnecessary violence or violence for the sake of violence or violence against innocents is condemned.
Obviously you dont understand what is meant by harmony. When I say people living in harmony and peace with eachother, I mean what you would see when you look out of the window in your street. People going about their daily lives, respecting eachother, not hurting eachother physically or mentally and people being able to fulfill their ambitions without fear of harassment. Everyday life. So if someone on your street attacks and kills someone else, wouldnt you want the offendor to get some kind of punishment? Or would you rather let him be? The Quran does not go against human nature. Therefore if the harmony of a society is disrupted, the cause must be dealt with and the harmony restored.
Unfortuantely, the ME has problems exactly because they dont live by Sharia.
Give me a verse that says Auuuugghhh You Bad You Die Now and I might believe you. Buddha was a Prophet too btw ^ ^
Which is exactly why Islam spread after its revelation and still continues to spread by merit. It didnt spread by sword or tax. You cannot force people to accept something they dont want to.
What is your source for this claim? I think just because you are on an anti-religious you think that everyone in the world agrees with you. Fortunately thats not the case. A lot of books have been written by great writers and thinkers about the positives of Islam.
First of all, I answered this question, it was part of my deleted posts. Second of all this straw man argument is not going to work here. Third, you might want to read this for starters.
WOW, that's one literary interpretation. It starts with a defintion of the word sin which can have the following meanings - "failings" "sin" "crime" "misdemenour" and "fault" and 3 pages later ends on this note: ... and Islam will shine forth in full glory and it's superiority will be established over all other faiths.
Come on Arsalan, surely you can not think this is an impartial reading and interpretation of the text?!?!?
Firstly, well, its been 1400 years and this has not occurred and is not likely going to occur, that is unless you think it's going to take another 1500 years for humanity to get it??? Secondly, the author denigrates Arabs as being these moralless people and that only through Mohammad did they get some level of civility - I'd take that as an insult. One Arab was the Emperor of Rome for Christ's sake. Lastly, don't you find this sort of "most superior religion in the world" a form of fascism? It's this exact type of thinking that causes war.
"My religion is the best, My God is better then your's you die now" :bugeye:
In my personal opinion I think it's probably the main thing that demonstrates monotheism is inherently unenlightened. If it were really truely an enlightened way then it's respect other peoples ideas as equal but it simply can not. Unless intolerance is a good thing I'd say it's the most negative expression of base humanity.
Thanks for the link and also I will stand that such is your opinion on the passage.
Michael
This is the main problem. Nowhere does it say that superiority of Islam will be established by force. That is what you want to read into it. Superiority of Islam will be established because it is the most rational religion and it doesnt go against human nature.
And when you follow a religion, you follow it because you think it is the best way to get closer to God and attain high morality on Earth. If you think your religion is not the best then why would you even follow that religion?!
And when you follow a religion, you follow it because you think it is the best way to get closer to God and attain high morality on Earth. If you think your religion is not the best then why would you even follow that religion?!
OK Arsalan, lets use your logic. Suppose that a society is very harmonious. Picture Buddhist/Shinto Japan 1800 for example. Then a Muslim comes along and speaks of the Qur'an and converts a few Japanese who then disrupt the societal harmony. Using your own argument Arsalan: You now suggest that if the harmony of a society is disrupted, the disrupting Muslims must be "dealt with" and the harmony restored.
Now, suppose that the World is in Harmony. There are polytheists, Buddhists, new-agers, Shinto, Hindu, Tao, Atheists, etc.. all living side by side and there is no war EXCEPT with Muslim states. According to your own rational if such a thing should happen then in order for the Chinese, Europeans, Americans, Brazilian, Japanese, Indians, Russian etc... they should follow your teaching and deal with the cause and restore the harmony.
If you can still not see why such a notion is unenlightened then simply look at how easily such ideas are twisted to hang gays in Iran, whip gang rape-victims in KSA and by kings and sultans to maintain power for centuries. Even a person speaking out against the Institution of Slavery, if such a thing as Slavery was considered the norm and "harmonious", can be "dealt with" to maintain the harmony.
Something to think about - or not,
Michael
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Arsalan, my point is that teaching such intolerance towards other peoples beliefs is unenlightened.
Say in the last 1000 years has the ME ever lived by Sharia law? If so when? if not then we will have to concede it doesn't work in "reality".
Communism also works very well on paper better then Islam actually as all people and both genders are equal.
Exactly like all religions, Islam spread by both the sword and by teachers.
What my point was is that if the Qu'ran was soooo novel and soooo much of a wonder of nature and soooo perfect --- well then, people would read it and they'd be swayed by it's teaching and become Muslim. But, that simply didn't happen and isn't happening and isn't going to happen. What does that say?
This is a fact of History not an opinion. It's a fact. Take China for example. Muslims have been in China for over 1000 years. Some Chinese Muslims were very high up in the Chinese court. But the "Islamic" way and the "Qur'an" has made almost no head-way into the Chinese people. Sure some close to the Western boarder are Muslim but not the vast majority. Secondly, look at India, it was ruled by Muslims, yet Islam is a minority religion. If the book was "perfect" then it's be self-evident to people who read it. They'd read the book and say WOW THIS IS SOOOOOO WONDROUS - ITS PERFECT.
But that doesn't happen now does it? No, it's not.
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I'm sorry that the post was deleted. You saw my short post on Xianity.
Arsalan, this should be a peace of cake. You should be able to open the Qur'an and as it is the most perfect book ever written by mankind - well actually by GOD and just post 3 "new" and "enlightened" concepts. Not pages long, just the concept. Then I'll ask you about the concept. This is actually more important to me than the OP.
Secondly, asking a question is not a straw man argument unless I am misrepresenting your position. The question does assume that Islam did offer something new and novel and enlightening about the human condition - if it does not then I will withdraw the question. But rest assured it was a real mistake. I just assumed Islam did offer some new insights into humanity.
Thirdly, I went to the link. The first "novel" concept was purported to be this:
NO MONOPOLY OF TRUTH
Islam is the only religion that totally rejects the notion that truth is the monopoly of any single faith, race or people;
This is not a new concept Buddhists teach that no absolute or ultimate truth is taught, including Buddhism.
So what is there? Anything?
I thought I would continue to look at the link you provided;
A UNIVERSAL RELIGION
Thus both the first and the last words of the Holy Quran present the concept of the entire universe, and not merely that of a God of the Arabs or the Muslims.
The exact same concept is in the Bible as well as Buddhism and was written about extensively by many ancient Greek Philosophers.
DIFFERENCES AND CONTRADICTIONS AMONG FAITHS - THEIR REALITY
The Quran tells us that the surest way to distinguish a true religion, despite its subsequent mutilation, is to examine its origin. If the origin reveals the teaching of the unity of God. Worship of none save the One God. And a true and genuine sympathy for all humanity. Then such a religion, despite subsequent changes, must be accepted as true.
This passage appears to be premised on the notion there is one God which (A) is not new the Egyptians first came up with monotheism and (B) is not enlightening and (C) Xianity already encompasses this.
AN ETERNAL RELIGION
Circular reasoning.
SAFEGUARDING OF THE QURAN:bugeye:
???
Safeguarding the Qur'an is new but it isn't enlightening.
A COMPLETE RELIGION
:bugeye:
OK I'm just going to stop here. If you can pick out three of any of what is posted in your link or anything you have felt is enlightening and we discuss it.
Well if you want to anyway. We're already settled the OP but I find this much more interesting, personally.
Michael
A UNIVERSAL RELIGION
Thus both the first and the last words of the Holy Quran present the concept of the entire universe, and not merely that of a God of the Arabs or the Muslims.
The exact same concept is in the Bible as well as Buddhism and was written about extensively by many ancient Greek Philosophers.
DIFFERENCES AND CONTRADICTIONS AMONG FAITHS - THEIR REALITY
The Quran tells us that the surest way to distinguish a true religion, despite its subsequent mutilation, is to examine its origin. If the origin reveals the teaching of the unity of God. Worship of none save the One God. And a true and genuine sympathy for all humanity. Then such a religion, despite subsequent changes, must be accepted as true.
This passage appears to be premised on the notion there is one God which (A) is not new the Egyptians first came up with monotheism and (B) is not enlightening and (C) Xianity already encompasses this.
AN ETERNAL RELIGION
Circular reasoning.
SAFEGUARDING OF THE QURAN:bugeye:
???
Safeguarding the Qur'an is new but it isn't enlightening.
A COMPLETE RELIGION
:bugeye:
OK I'm just going to stop here. If you can pick out three of any of what is posted in your link or anything you have felt is enlightening and we discuss it.
Well if you want to anyway. We're already settled the OP but I find this much more interesting, personally.
Michael
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First of all what kind of disruption are the Muslim converts causing? Second of all, if the only disruption is that they have changed their religion and that is deemed unacceptable then that Buddhist/Shinto society knows no freedom of religion.
First of all, that wont happen. Secondly, if a Muslim state breaks the Sharia law and attacks another state just like that, then it is the duty of every other Muslim country to subdue that Muslim state. That is the Sharia law. So yes, the people who cause disorder and disruption need to be dealt with.
So it is "unenlightened" to deal with the cause of disruption and disorder? Well, lets throw away medicines then. Who needs hospitals anyway. Schools? Meh :shrug:
Something to think about - or not,
Michael[/QUOTE]
Ocen again, when you ascribe to a certain religion or point of view, you do that because you think it is the best. If you dont think it is then you wont stay there for long! Islams superioiryt over other religions has been established. The doctrines on which Christiantity is based have been shown to be false. And etc. etc. etc.
If teaching that a certain point of view is the best, why do we teach that democracy is the best way to run a country? Or that education and healthcare should be for everyone?
The system worked because it was implemented during the life of the Holy Prophet and was well estbalished during the Khalifa a Rashideen. Spain had it for a while and so did every Muslim country that made progress. But, by Prophecy, Muslims lost their faith, the office of Khalifa became nothing but a rich station and Muslim leaders chose worldly things above religion.
Islam is the only one of the 3 major religions in which both genders are equal.
Fortunately this is not true. The sword was never used to spread Islam or force it upon people by the Holy Prophet the Khalifa e Rashideen and in many other countries. This is a lie by Western Orientalists who wrote books on these kinds of topics when asked by the Christian clergy to help spread Christanity in the East.
The story of Umar?
This must be a joke, ive met loads of people who were swayed by the beuaty of the Quran and accepted it.
It is happening, Just not on this forum
How do you think Islam is spreading so fast? By the sword? Dont make me laugh. Even despite the best efforts of Anti-Islamists it continues to spread because it has something they dont: The Quran.The jsut over 300 people that fought against the Meccans that attacked them, I guess they werent swayed by the guidance in the Quran and its beauty. Indonesia, one of the largest Muslim countries, also had many Muslims who spread their religion by the sword right? Oh wait
And you are saying that every single Chinese has read the Quran?
Look at the world, the majority are religious and not atheist. So religion must be the right thing! That argument wont work, im afraid.
But that doesn't happen now does it? No, it's not.[/QUOTE]