Did Mohammad sin???

Michael

I'm really not sure what the point of your argument is. I believe we all agree there is a Muslim doctrine that all prophets are sinless. Therefore, if you are a Muslim, you will interpret 48.2 as referring not to Muhammad; and since the Qu'ran is mostly second-person this is a fair argument. If you are not a Muslim, you probably view Muhammad as a bloodthirsty tyrant and false prophet. In which case, whether or not he sinned is moot. Or is there something deeper here you want to get across.
 
Sleepless said:
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=48&tid=49258
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As linked

The Merit of Surah Al-Fath

Imam Ahmad recorded from `Abdullah bin Mughaffal, who said that Allah's Messenger recited Surah Al-Fath on the (day) of the conquest of Makkah, riding on his she-camel. He recited it in a vibrating and pleasant tone. Mu`awiyah (a subnarrator) added: "Were I not afraid that the people would crowd around me, I would surely try to imitate and produce his recitation.'' Both Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded this Hadith through Shu`bah.

[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ ]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

[إِنَّا فَتَحْنَا لَكَ فَتْحاً مُّبِيناً - لِّيَغْفِرَ لَكَ اللَّهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِن ذَنبِكَ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ وَيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكَ وَيَهْدِيَكَ صِرَطاً مُّسْتَقِيماً - وَيَنصُرَكَ اللَّهُ نَصْراً عَزِيزاً ]

(1. Verily, We have given you a manifest victory.) (2. That Allah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favor on you, and guide you on the straight path,) (3. And that Allah may help you with strong help.)
 
Are you actually suggesting that the "doctrine of the isma" of the prophets (sinlessness) does not reconcile with the Qur"an?

Say it ain't so.
 
Revolvr said:
Michael

I'm really not sure what the point of your argument is. I believe we all agree there is a Muslim doctrine that all prophets are sinless.
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That's not true, some Muslims beleive Mohammad sinned and was forgiven.


Anyway, my personal beleif is besides the point. My question was did Mohammad sin and if so what sorts of sins? As for Mohammad being a "false" prophet? I don't believe in prophets so I don't believe in false ones either. There were a lot philosophers that spoke and thought about the Gods but didn't beleive in them. Socrates comes to mind.


Revolvr
Do you think that the Qur'an is "perfect"?


Michael
 
1) If one is forgiven of a sin are they sinless?
2) If one is forgiven of a sin did they sin in the past?
 
Well, lets just start with C because this can be quickly determined. Bascially I am confused as to what you consider when you used the word "perfect". IMO, outside of a mathematical proof nothing is "perfect".

Do you think that the Qur'an is "perfect"?


Does it contradict anything it says? No. Does it propagate hate? No. Violence? No. Does it contradict science? No. Is it perfect? Yes.


Back to question "C" I just want to know which you think is perfect. Of course there is no correct answer (to me) because to use the notion of perfection and society is purely subjective.

(C)
Maybe we have a different opinion of what is perfect.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where all people are taxed equally or
b) a society were some people are taxed based on their belief.
Which is more perfect a or b?

You will just have to learn to accept the world isnt a democratic republic, and whether you dislike/like a system, it wont change things. Anyway getting back to the point, Islam made its duty to protect the non muslim habitants, in return they were taxed.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where Slavery is an acceptable institutional or
b) a society were Slavery is illegal.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Slavery, they were POWs, werent they? The women and children were freed. Islam prescribed utmost care and attention to the slaves. Now you tell me what is a better society, where slaves have been mistreated, degraded, forced into inferiority (as they were in more recent history), or cared for? Infact, the kind of treatment slaves were meted out in Arabia before the advent of Islam was barbarious, was that a better society?



Which is more perfect?
a) A society where polygamy is an acceptable practice or
b) a society were polygamy is unacceptable.
Which is more perfect a or b?

Polygamy is allowed in many religions, but we should look at that justify it. Man is certainly polygamous by nature, but reasons more important than that was why polygamy was legalized. More kids, larger family, more followers of Islam, and guess what, its working lol. There were a few other reasons but I really dont remember Im sure if youre really interested to know, you can either google that or maybe someone here will let you know.




Which is more perfect?
a) A society where women are legally equal to men or
b) a society were women are not legally equal to men.
Which is more perfect a or b?

And where does it say men arent treated equally as women? I am a woman, Ive never felt discriminated, but society is another issue, theres still too much ignorance amongst people here, but that doesnt have anything to do with Islam. Im sure if they actually studied it in greater tafsir, by known scholars there wouldnt be any misunderstanding as such we see today.

Which is more perfect?
a) A polygamist society where men can legally take more than one wife or
b) a polygamist society were men and women can legally take more than one partner
Which is more perfect a or b?

See above.



Michael

NOTE: This shouldn't be a long post. Debates go back and forth right? So just step by step we can figure this notion of perfection out.
 
Michael said:
As linked

The Merit of Surah Al-Fath

Imam Ahmad recorded from `Abdullah bin Mughaffal, who said that Allah's Messenger recited Surah Al-Fath on the (day) of the conquest of Makkah, riding on his she-camel. He recited it in a vibrating and pleasant tone. Mu`awiyah (a subnarrator) added: "Were I not afraid that the people would crowd around me, I would surely try to imitate and produce his recitation.'' Both Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded this Hadith through Shu`bah.

[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ ]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

[إِنَّا فَتَحْنَا لَكَ فَتْحاً مُّبِيناً - لِّيَغْفِرَ لَكَ اللَّهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِن ذَنبِكَ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ وَيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكَ وَيَهْدِيَكَ صِرَطاً مُّسْتَقِيماً - وَيَنصُرَكَ اللَّهُ نَصْراً عَزِيزاً ]

(1. Verily, We have given you a manifest victory.) (2. That Allah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favor on you, and guide you on the straight path,) (3. And that Allah may help you with strong help.)
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And the problem is?:confused:
 
Michael said:
Welcome to Sciforums Sleepless and you too Revolvr :)
(I just noticed your post numbers are really low)

Michael


PS: Note to Sleepless, ashura, Revolvr, Arsalan as well as anyone else: This is a science debate forum, I'm agnostic atheist and I debate using my version of the Socratic method which involves you answering your own question :) Try not to get pissed off of if you do get over it!
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Thanks. Um, how can you be agnostic and atheist at the same time? And if youre answering your own questions, that would mean you already have your mind made up thus nulling the purpose of this discussion forum. Consequently, I would assume you INTEND to piss us all off :p Am I rite, or am I rite?
 
I agree, what is an agnostic atheist? Not sure of your own atheism? It is relevant because sin is usually defined in some sort of theological context therefore it is impossible to answer the question without knowing what sin is. What is sin to you?

As this is a science forum, perhaps it is the ratio of the opposite side to the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle? I doubt Muhammad had any right triangles, therefore he would be sin less.
 
Agnostic = It is not possible to logically prove a negative.
Atheist = I lack a beleif in Gods and Goddesses.

You Sleepless, are probably an agnostic theistic Muslim.

As for pissing you off no, I just find that even when asking direct questions people are still so vague in their answers that it becomes moot to even have a discussion. It starts as a direct question and then devolves into defining every single word and in the end it often becomes a waste of time.

Is the following correct?

1) Society functions better when people are taxed based on their personal beleif.
2) Society functions better when POWs are enslaved.
3) Polygamous societies function better than monogamous societies.


* I'm unsure as to the legally of men and women? Should men and women be legal equals or not legal equals?
 
Revolvr said:
As this is a science forum, perhaps it is the ratio of the opposite side to the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle? I doubt Muhammad had any right triangles, therefore he would be sin less.
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Do you agree with Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall and Grand Shaykh Professor Hasan Qaribullah Shaykh translations that the verse is directly speaking to Mohammad and that Allah intends to forgive Mohammad of sin that which is past and that which is to come.

Or do you disagree?


note 1: What the definition of "sin" is irrelevant.
note 2: [48.1] Indeed, We have opened for you (Prophet Muhammad) a clear opening,
It is perfectly clear who "you" is referring to, as indicated by the (Prophet Muhammad)


Revolvr, you missed three of my questions,

Do you think that the Qur'an is "perfect"?
If one is forgiven of a sin are they sinless?
If one is forgiven of a sin did they sin in the past?
 
YOUR definition of sin is indeed relevant. As you are an atheist I have no idea what you mean. So how could I answer any question about sin?

Does it mean without fault? Perfect? Moral in a religious sense? A pluralistic sense? Help me out here.

Do you think Muhammad was sinless?
 
Firstly my opinion.
I do not believe in "sin" but I understand the theistic concept. For example, it is an unforgivable "sin" in some Xian religions to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit it's also a sin to murder.

Now in my personal moral code I do not think there is anything morally wrong with blaspheme against the Holy Spirit because I lack a beleif in the Holy Spirit. But yes I agree it is morally wrong to murder.

Just because I don't share the beleif in the Holy Spirit doesn't mean I can not think about what the Book of Mark is trying to say in verse 3:28-29.

Secondly, it seems IMO that the two Muslim scholars have taken Qur'an verse 48.1-2 to mean that Mohammad has sinned in one form or another and will in the future commit more sins.
 
Michael said:
Agnostic = It is not possible to logically prove a negative.
Atheist = I lack a beleif in Gods and Goddesses.

You Sleepless, are probably an agnostic theistic Muslim.

As for pissing you off no, I just find that even when asking direct questions people are still so vague in their answers that it becomes moot to even have a discussion. It starts as a direct question and then devolves into defining every single word and in the end it often becomes a waste of time.

Is the following correct?

1) Society functions better when people are taxed based on their personal beleif.
2) Society functions better when POWs are enslaved.
3) Polygamous societies function better than monogamous societies.


* I'm unsure as to the legally of men and women? Should men and women be legal equals or not legal equals?
Click to expand...

LOL on this forum alone Ive come across more definations for agnostic than a dozen dictionaries. Please! I seldom get pissed off.

1. Like I said, they were given protection by the Muslims, also, they were not required to join armies. They could freely trade, they had equal rights/opportunities, so jizyah wasnt unreasonable. The reasons behind the taxing was not based on prejudice as much as you would like to think so. Ofcourse Muslims believe they are better than the rest, theyll go to heaven, but then dont all others too? Dont you believe youre rite too? You probably think we re hopeless, stupid, brainwashed people, wouldnt that be a form of prejudice too? Anyway getting back to the point, can you give me a reason why those taxes were unreasonable (in context with the reasons I gave you).

2. No it is obviously more humane to free them, but if these POWs (one time enemy) were let loose, wouldnt they destruct the same society? Personally, it would depend on what the society chooses. You wage war, you bear the consequences. Before you go on about how Islam was a violent religion that converted people under the sword, let me mention, Pre emptive strikes were against the nature of Islam, the Quran specifically orders not to attack until youre attacked first.

3. Disagree, in todays society it doesnt. The Quran permits polygamy, and in the next verse, discourages it too, if a man can not be sure he will be able to treat his wives equally, he should marry once only.

Anything else? :)
 
Michael said:
Firstly my opinion.
I do not believe in "sin" but I understand the theistic concept. For example, it is an unforgivable "sin" in some Xian religions to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit it's also a sin to murder.

Now in my personal moral code I do not think there is anything morally wrong with blaspheme against the Holy Spirit because I lack a beleif in the Holy Spirit. But yes I agree it is morally wrong to murder.

Just because I don't share the beleif in the Holy Spirit doesn't mean I can not think about what the Book of Mark is trying to say in verse 3:28-29.

Secondly, it seems IMO that the two Muslim scholars have taken Qur'an verse 48.1-2 to mean that Mohammad has sinned in one form or another and will in the future commit more sins.
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Where does it say that? Post.
 
Michael said:
Do you think that the Qur'an is "perfect"?
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Yes, it presents the perfect way to live in harmony and to maintain that harmony in society and also tells us how to get closer to God and attaing high morals.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where all people are taxed equally or
b) a society were some people are taxed based on their belief.
Which is more perfect a or b?
Click to expand...

Most governments tax their subjects. In a Muslim country therefore the tax that is levied on the Muslims by Islam is called Zakat. To make sure that the non-Muslim subjects of that government dont accuse the government of subtly trying to force Islam on them, they are exempted from paying the Zakat. But becaus tax is a must for the government, the tax that is levied on non-Muslims in a muslim country is called Jizya, which is not as heavy as Zakat and exempts them from having to join the army for example. Mind you, the Jizya is tax is not meant to last forever.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where Slavery is an acceptable institutional or
b) a society were Slavery is illegal.
Which is more perfect a or b?
Click to expand...

On the contrary, slavery as you understand it to be is not allowed in Islam. Even Manji has admitted that the Holy Quran freed the slaves. I also suggest you read this: http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000217.html

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where polygamy is an acceptable practice or
b) a society were polygamy is unacceptable.
Which is more perfect a or b?
Click to expand...

Polygamy is permissible in Islam, but strongly discouraged. The reason that polygamy is permitted is because Islam is a universal religion it encompasses teachings that can unite everyone. There are certain countries and areas where polygamy with dozens of wives has long been the norm. Instead of promoting that, Islam has put a limit on it and stronlgy advised against it. If someone does wish to have more than 1 wife, it will only be possible if the first wife agrees and they can both be treated equally.

In the end this is a way to keep society safe from vices which we see a lot nowadays where men are seen as some kind of heroes if they have intercourse with as many women as possible. We have divorces where the husband had numerous mistresses. Also because of the wars women outnumber men which leads to all kinds of shenanigans outside of marriage.

Instead of allowing actions which are harmful for the peace in a society Islam has presented a way to keep safe from this.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where women are legally equal to men or
b) a society were women are not legally equal to men.
Which is more perfect a or b?
Click to expand...

Legally equal ofcourse. As the Quran states.

Which is more perfect?
a) A polygamist society where men can legally take more than one wife or
b) a polygamist society were men and women can legally take more than one partner
Which is more perfect a or b?
Click to expand...

A society where polygamy is permitted in the case of having more than 1 wife, although strongly discouraged. There are numerous advantages of that.
 
Where does what say what?

48.2. That Allah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favor on you, and guide you on the straight path,

What does "sins of the past and the future" mean to you?


Do you think that there are other religous books that are "perfect" as in they do not contradict themselves, do not propagate hate nor violence and do not contradict science? If I were to write a small book that met those criteria would you consider it perfect?


If the Qur'an is "perfect" how can some people recite verses found in it to justify murdering other people?
 
ashura said:
I believe his former worship of idols counts as one.

EDIT: This site has an interested anaysis that reduces what the sins could've been to one or more of the following: "To sum up, those who possess or commit dh—n—b do the following: disbelieve, sexually seduce, rebel, murder, defy Allah, refuse his messengers, disobey clear warnings, doubt holy men, or mock sacred truths and messengers or patriarchs."

I'm no Quran expert so I can't verify it for you. Take it as you like.
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Ye it shows your not a Quran expert because that article is hardly from an ojbective source. They also lack knowledge of Arabic idiom with regard to dhanaba
 
kaneda said:
He was married to five girls aged from 9-15 years old and boasted that he could satisfy them all in one night. However, this was not judged a sin in those days.

As Mohammad died a slow and lingering death and Allah did nothing to ease his suffering, I assume he managed to really upset Allah in some way.
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And where is your proof of this?
 
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