Did Mohammad sin???

Unfortunately Michael, I answered every question you raised and went into quite some detail about it. I also rebutted every single point that was made against Islam in the Islam and Europe thread. But for some reason it was marked as preaching and deleted even though I was just answering the questions you and other people asked. That is why you wont see all my posts but some. I spent quite some time preparing those posts and where I took parts from other sources I made it pretty clear. I dont want to waste all that time again just to be censored.

It was Skinwalker btw and I'm pretty sure he never read any of my long posts. Oh well, c'est la vie. That is why I am saying if anyone wants to a debate on Islam lets go to another forum where there isnt any censorship. I can try and answer these questions again but you have to understand that I do find it pretty annoying and narrowminded when it happens.
 
Since 'sin' is subjective to each religion, we are to surmiss that Muhammad sinned based on Islam. And since Islam itself promotes hatred, racism, bigotry, oppression and murder, we can conclude Muhammad promoted and acted upon the same ideals.

He only did what his god told him to do, evidently.
 
Because it's been established that the Quran never says that Muhammad was sinless, and even somewhat suggests otherwise, and because the Hadith are second, third or even fourth hand accounts of what Muhammad did and not the word of God, there are no good grounds to conclusively say that Muhammad was sinless.
 
Verse 48:2 suggests nowhere that he sinned. Verses 7:158, 33:22, 54:3-4, 68:5 are but some of the verses that speak in glowing terms of the purity and spotlessness of his life. Muslims believe that Prophets are sinless.
 
Arsalan said:
Verse 48:2 suggests nowhere that he sinned. Verses 7:158, 33:22, 54:3-4, 68:5 are but some of the verses that speak in glowing terms of the purity and spotlessness of his life. Muslims believe that Prophets are sinless.
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Arsalan is quite correct. As I pointed out also, Muhammad and other prophets are all considered sinless. The Hadiths are second to the Qu'ran and describe Muhammad's life. Muslims want to emulate his behavior just as Christians want to emulate Christ.

However, in Christianity, Jesus is divine and so Jesus is worshiped (as part of the Trinity). In Islam, Muhammad is not divine, but a messenger. Muslims do not worship Muhammad. That's why Muslims do not like the older term used - Muhammadans.

The Qu'ran is Allah's word direct from Allah. Think of it as Allah dictating to Muhammad. So the writing is in first person for the most part. The Hadiths read more like stories which is more similar to the Bible.
 
048.002
YUSUFALI: That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;
PICKTHAL: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,
SHAKIR: That Allah may forgive your community their past faults and those to follow and complete His favor to you and keep you on a right way,
 
Arsalan said:
Unfortunately Michael, I answered every question you raised and went into quite some detail about it.
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Well, lets just start with C because this can be quickly determined. Bascially I am confused as to what you consider when you used the word "perfect". IMO, outside of a mathematical proof nothing is "perfect".

Do you think that the Qur'an is "perfect"?


Back to question "C" I just want to know which you think is perfect. Of course there is no correct answer (to me) because to use the notion of perfection and society is purely subjective.

(C)
Maybe we have a different opinion of what is perfect.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where all people are taxed equally or
b) a society were some people are taxed based on their belief.
Which is more perfect a or b?

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where Slavery is an acceptable institutional or
b) a society were Slavery is illegal.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Which is more perfect?
a) A society where polygamy is an acceptable practice or
b) a society were polygamy is unacceptable.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Which is more perfect?
a) A society where women are legally equal to men or
b) a society were women are not legally equal to men.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Which is more perfect?
a) A polygamist society where men can legally take more than one wife or
b) a polygamist society were men and women can legally take more than one partner
Which is more perfect a or b?


Michael

NOTE: This shouldn't be a long post. Debates go back and forth right? So just step by step we can figure this notion of perfection out.
 
Michael said:
048.002
YUSUFALI: That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfil His favour to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;
PICKTHAL: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,
SHAKIR: That Allah may forgive your community their past faults and those to follow and complete His favor to you and keep you on a right way,
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Why do you believe this verse says Muhammad sinned?
 
PICKTHAL: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come... :bugeye:

What does this sentence mean to you?
 
Revolvr said:
It means that Allah might forgive my past and future sins.
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So in the context of the surah, since it's being said to Muhammed, it means that "Allah might forgive Muhammad's past and future sins." Why would it say that if he were sinless?
 
Arsalan said:
Verse 48:2 suggests nowhere that he sinned. Verses 7:158, 33:22, 54:3-4, 68:5 are but some of the verses that speak in glowing terms of the purity and spotlessness of his life. Muslims believe that Prophets are sinless.
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I've already given my point about 48:2 in another post. As for the rest of your reading recommendations:

Shakir 7:158 said:
Say: O people! surely I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, of Him Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He; He brings to life and causes to die therefore believe in Allah and His messenger, the Ummi Prophet who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that you may walk in the right way.
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No indications of Muhammed being sinless, only of him being the prophet.

Shakir 33:22 said:
And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Messenger promised us, and Allah and His Messenger spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission.
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Again, no indication of him being sinless.

[Shakir 54:3-4 said:
And they call (it) a lie, and follow their low desires; and every affair has its appointed term.
And certainly some narratives have come to them wherein is prevention--
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I'm starting to see a trend here...

Shakir 68:5 said:
So you shall see, and they (too) shall see,
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Arsalan, are we reading the same Quran? I see no indication in any of these passages of Muhammed's sins, or lack thereof.

I got my quotes from here: http://www.al-islam.org/quran/.
 
ashura said:
So in the context of the surah, since it's being said to Muhammed, it means that "Allah might forgive Muhammad's past and future sins." Why would it say that if he were sinless?
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No, it is not being said to Muhammad. It is written in first Person. When words like Thee, Ye, You, Thy are used they refer to the reader (directing all Muslims) not Muhammad. For example, this Sura uses ye, you, thy a lot:

002.150 So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither: that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

This is where Muslims are directed to pray toward Mecca. Previously, they were directed to pray toward Jerusalem. This marks a turning point in the Qu’ran after the Jews rejected Muhammad and Muhammad has given up trying to convert Jews.
 
Revolvr said:
No, it is not being said to Muhammad. It is written in first Person. When words like Thee, Ye, You, Thy are used they refer to the reader (directing all Muslims) not Muhammad. For example, this Sura uses ye, you, thy a lot:

002.150 So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither: that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

This is where Muslims are directed to pray toward Mecca. Previously, they were directed to pray toward Jerusalem. This marks a turning point in the Qu’ran after the Jews rejected Muhammad and Muhammad has given up trying to convert Jews.
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Doesn't that make this second person?

And what makes you think God's not directing Muhammad in that quote? Yes, it's used by Muslims to validate praying towards Mecca, but why do you think he's not talking to Muhammad? The Quran, after all, is the word of Allah revealed to Muhammad.
 
Yes, sorry - second person.

Muslims interpret the Qu'ran as second person - Allah's revelations to the people. Muhammad was just the person it was dictated to.

Perhaps this is a better example:

002.151 A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.

Here Allah refers to Muhammad separately as the Apostle while using YOU to refer to the reader.
 
To go back to the original Thread.

One big gripe on the News is the lack of Muslims leaders standing up and staying this sort of shit (the teddy bear situation) is wrong. Again, it reminds me of that singing girl thread where few Muslims dare suggest it is immoral and instead try to bend over backwards to find any sort of excuse other than to say flat out it was wrong.
 
Michael said:
Apparently so,

[48:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[48:1] We have bestowed upon you (O Messenger) a great victory.

[48:2] Whereby GOD forgives your past sins, as well as future sins, and perfects His blessings upon you, and guides you in a straight path.


I wonder what sorts of sins did Mohammad commit? Anyone have some examples of any?

Michael
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http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=48&tid=49258


Because the Quran can be interpreted in many different ways, (usually verses are taken and interpreted out of context by amateurs and the biased) the tafsir or explanation can only be done by those who are most well versed in Arabic (as spoken during the period of revelation) and the hadith, amongst the many books of hadith, there are the Sahih which are reliable and do not contradict the teachings of the Quran, also these sayings have to be witnessed by more than one person to validate them. These scholars must also be well studied in fiqh, they are to be unanimously voted upon in order to pass any decisions and explanations.

Ibn Kathirs tafsir or explanation are agreed to be accurate. Thus, I posted the link. Do check it out.
 
Welcome to Sciforums Sleepless and you too Revolvr :)
(I just noticed your post numbers are really low)

Michael


PS: Note to Sleepless, ashura, Revolvr, Arsalan as well as anyone else: This is a science debate forum, I'm agnostic atheist and I debate using my version of the Socratic method which involves you answering your own question :) Try not to get pissed off of if you do get over it!
 
According to Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall

48.1 Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory,

48.2 That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,

Grand Shaykh, Professor Hasan Qaribullah Shaykh

[48.1] Indeed, We have opened for you (Prophet Muhammad) a
clear opening,
[48.2] that Allah forgives your past and future sins, and
completes His Favor to you, and guides you on a Straight
Path,


It seems to me that these versions from each of the Muslim scholars read the verse to be Allah speaking about Mohammad. (Notice that parenthesis in both interpretations signal that the "you" is indeed Mohammad). It seems to me it's about Mohammad.
 
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