Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

[Lori_7]

The Bible does not say something about intentions. It says proper and modest clothes.

ok then, established...proper and modest are relative.

No. See. If I mention that a certain group disagrees with you and you respond
they are evil and stupid
you may be paraphasing scripture
but you are explaining why they disagree with you. they disagree with you because they are stupid and evil.

If you think everyone is stupid and evil, then your response makes no sense.

If I point out that someone likes a Tv show you dislike and I ask why there is this difference and you answer

they are evil and stupid

no. i think all of us are evil and stupid, and being lustful is one of the many ways we express that.

how can this NOT be judging them as somehow different from you in these ways.

they are different from me in that they are lustful, and either justifying it, or compensating for it, and i am not.

And yes, I know you said we are all sinners, blah, blah. And despite this you judge them.

only because of what i know about myself. so is that really judging? the bible is very clear about discernment, and about sin. can't it simply be a recognition? it isn't that i think i'm a better person, i just think i'm right about this. what do you think? do you think i'm right about this?

So you split him into two. There is the physically attractive man, but that does not affect you sexually, its the love feelings you have that do. How strange and unlikely. I can see saying it is not ALL of why you want to have sex with him, but how can how he looks to you not be a part of your attraction?

I will bet his reasons for wanting to have sex with you include how you look.

It seems to me you still have judgments about sex being bad and love being good like the old Christians you think are evil and stupid.

no, i actually think that sex is the greatest gift god gave us next to jesus, and that we undervalue it.

you can ask my husband if you want. he's a member here. rjr6. he doesn't post on here very much anymore. i can't promise a response but i'll mention it to him.

honestly, the first time i had sex with my husband was within several hours of me meeting him in person for the first time. and while we had been speaking on the phone for several weeks, i didn't choose to have sex with him due to any physical or emotional attraction. at that point, i had been celibate for 8 years, and so that kind of attraction had been a mute point for quite some time. i had sex with him as an act of faith, and at that moment, i considered myself to be his wife, because of what i believe about sex, and because of what i believed about him. since then i have grown to be very physically and emotionally attached to my husband, but it still isn't why i have sex with him. i'm physically and emotionally appreciative of a lot of people, but those people aren't my husband, and i am not their wife. i have a responsibility towards that man, and i am very grateful to have the opportunity.

 

[Lori_7]

i just posted this in my "religious music" thread, but i thought it was extremely relevant here in regards to my perspective...

ok, my song of the day is from one of my, and many others, all time favorite bands...metallica.

this song expresses exactly how i feel about living in the flesh and about my savior jesus christ.

"the day that never comes"...

Born to push you around,
Better just stay down.
You pull away,
He hits the flesh,
You hit the ground.

Mouth so full of lies,
Tend to black your eyes.
Just keep them closed,
Keep praying,
Just keep waiting.

Waiting for the one!
The day that never comes!
When you stand up and feel the warmth!
But the sunshine never comes!

No the sun shine never comes.

Push you cross that line,
Just stay down this time.
Hide in yourself,
Crawl in yourself,
You'll have your time.

God I'll make them pay,


Take it back one day.
I'll end this day,
I'll splatter color on this gray.

Waiting for the one!
The day that never comes!
When you stand up and feel the warmth!
But the sunshine never comes!

Love is a four letter word!
And never spoken here!

Love is a four letter word!
Here in this prison!
I suffer this no longer!
I'll put an end to,
This I swear!
This I swear!
The sun will shine!
This I swear!
This I swear!
This I SWEAR!!!

i don't like the video that much, probably because i'm a girl, but for the guys, and those who want to listen to the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRitfbhITLM&ob=av2e

 

[Lori_7]

doreen,

if you're looking to try and understand my perspective, and not just looking to argue with me, i invite you to watch this video and listen to this song. i am the girl in this video. no, i'm not an actress, but this video could be about me. i'm not looking to fit in; i'm looking to tell the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoPlkmYaEQs&ob=av2e

Bat your eyes girl
Be other-worldly
Count your blessings
Seduce a stranger

What's so wrong with being happy?
Kudos to those who see through sickness, yeah
Over and over
And over and over

She woke in the morning
She knew that her life had passed her by
And she called out a warning
"Don't ever let life pass you by"

I suggest we learn to love ourselves
Before it's made illegal
When will we learn?
(When will we learn?)
When will we change?
(When will we change?)
Just in time to see it all come down

Those left standing
Will make millions
Writing books on the way
It should have been

She woke in the morning
She knew that her life had passed her by
And she called out a warning, warning
"Don't ever let life pass you by"

Floating in this cosmic jaccuzi
We are like frogs oblivious
To the water starting to boil
No one flinches, we all float face down

When she woke in the morning
She knew that her life had passed her by
And she called out a warning, warning
"Don't ever let life pass you by, pass you by"

 

[Skeptical]

My big problem with Lori, apart from the fact that she is a religico and I am non believer, is her strange view of sin.

"I am a man" is not an excuse. It is a reason. Actually, there are a lot of women for whom this reason applies equally well, but women are all different from each other, and it apparently does not apply to Lori.

That is not an excuse for her being judgemental. It is like a person with a B.S. degree like me saying to a person with Down's Syndrome : " You are obviously lazy since you do not have a degree."

Lori fails to understand the power of lust. For red blooded heterosexual guys it is not a choice. It is automatic. For a lot of women, it is the same. To feel lust is not a sin, even if that lust is 'inappropriate'. It is wrongful acting on that lust that is wrong. The fact that Lori thinks a feeling is sinful is pretty damn weird.

 

[NMSquirrel]

M
Lori fails to understand the power of lust. For red blooded heterosexual guys it is not a choice. It is automatic. For a lot of women, it is the same. To feel lust is not a sin, even if that lust is 'inappropriate'. It is wrongful acting on that lust that is wrong. The fact that Lori thinks a feeling is sinful is pretty damn weird.

this is the verse that causes that attitude..
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

it says even if you think about it, you have sinned..
i struggle with this one..as i am male and agree with you that acting on it is the sin..but...

 

[Lori_7]

My big problem with Lori, apart from the fact that she is a religico and I am non believer, is her strange view of sin.

"I am a man" is not an excuse. It is a reason. Actually, there are a lot of women for whom this reason applies equally well, but women are all different from each other, and it apparently does not apply to Lori.

That is not an excuse for her being judgemental. It is like a person with a B.S. degree like me saying to a person with Down's Syndrome : " You are obviously lazy since you do not have a degree."

Lori fails to understand the power of lust. For red blooded heterosexual guys it is not a choice. It is automatic. For a lot of women, it is the same. To feel lust is not a sin, even if that lust is 'inappropriate'. It is wrongful acting on that lust that is wrong. The fact that Lori thinks a feeling is sinful is pretty damn weird.

it's not the feeling that is sinful, it's the thought behind the feeling. an incorrect perception that leads to an inappropriate arousal. it doesn't make any sense imo to entertain thoughts that if acted upon, would be incorrect or harmful. if the act is incorrect and harmful, then the thought is as well. why would you perpetuate, or even tolerate, that kind of conflict going on inside of you? it makes no sense.

 

[Skeptical]

Lori

Humans can, and do, think all kinds of things that are wrong. It is quite harmless. It is not the thought, but the doing that causes harm.

Re Matthew 5:28
OK. Not a problem to me as a non believer. But for you guys who take these things seriously, let me comment. As it stands, this verse is just ridiculous. Feeling lust when a sexy lady appears is not wrong. It is just normal. However, if you take the words "looks at a woman lustfully" to mean "with lustful intent" - a minor and I think justifiable, re-interpretation, - then it makes a lot more sense. To feel something is one thing. To plan to act upon it is something else.

I find the bodies of men, children, and older people totally non-erotic. However, the bodies of females old enough to have curves and young enough not to have wrinkles - that is quite different! However, when I look at a woman like that, and feel desire, that is not wrong. It is just a natural response. Looked at from your religious viewpoint, if it is sinful, then God is at fault, since he/she/it created me to react that way totally automatically.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

this is the verse that causes that attitude..
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

it says even if you think about it, you have sinned..
i struggle with this one..as i am male and agree with you that acting on it is the sin..but...

"...but"

No need to struggle... i thank its oK to inurpet the Holey Bible however necesary to suite you'r personal needs :shrug:

 

[NMSquirrel]

"...but"

No need to struggle... i thank its oK to inurpet the Holey Bible however necesary to suite you'r personal needs :shrug:

that response had nothing to do with what i said...

 

[cluelusshusbund]

that response had nothing to do with what i said...

So do you agree wit Matthew 5:28 or not.???

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

 

[Mind Over Matter]

*************
M*W: I read this commentary on Austin's Atheist Blog: Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/05/10/did-jesus-really-suffer-enough.htm


I would like to know what your comments, feelings and opinions are.

Both the suffering of Jesus and the suffering of his followers are described as necessary steps in God's plan for humanity.

Stopped reading there. This person is obviously not educated in Theology.

The Anselmian view of Salvation is neither the most popular; nor the only Theory of Atonement; the other major two are the Thomistic and Acceptance Theories (too name but two more); which (respecivally) show that Jesus Sacrifice was the wisest; or the accepted act - neither of these claim necessity.

I believe in the Acceptance Theory of Atonement; which stipulates that the sacrifice of Jesus was not necessarily necessary; nor was it necessarily the wisest method; but it was the method chosen by; and accepted by God. It is through this acceptance that we can see that Jesus; who is both fully human and fully God; gave himself freely for the sake of humanity; a sacrifice that both Father and Son accept as cause (not necessary cause) for the forgiveness of our sins.

 

[Yosef]

So do you agree wit Matthew 5:28 or not.???

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I don't believe that God orders us to look away for no reason. It is not only due to the fear of acting on the desire. It is much healthier for the soul not to gaze at random women. All the dopamine rush associated with looking at minimally dressed women would be avoided and this means that a greater feeling of well-being will be sustained. There is a pleasure and satisfaction that can be achieved only by obeying God fully. Not getting those intense dopamine rushes (caused by looking at women) means that you are going to enjoy more reading the Bible, Quran and you are going to enjoy more the talk to your mom etc..

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I don't believe that God orders us to look away for no reason. It is not only due to the fear of acting on the desire. It is much healthier for the soul not to gaze at random women. All the dopamine rush associated with looking at minimally dressed women would be avoided and this means that a greater feeling of well-being will be sustained.
There is a pleasure and satisfaction that can be achieved only by obeying God fully. Not getting those intense dopamine rushes (caused by looking at women) means that you are going to enjoy more reading the Bible, Quran and you are going to enjoy more the talk to your mom etc..

What about masterbation... do you consider that healthy for young boys or single men.???

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I believe in the Acceptance Theory of Atonement; which stipulates that the sacrifice of Jesus was not necessarily necessary; nor was it necessarily the wisest method; but it was the method chosen by; and accepted by God.

If it was chosen by God... how can you juge it to not necesssarly be the wisest method.???

 

[Mind Over Matter]

think he suffered enough for a few reasons.

1st, though some people in life might suffer more, Jesus was totally innocent. No sin was on him, and there was no reason for him to "deserve" suffering.

2nd, he also suffered mentally. Being God, he knew what was to happen to him. This would be extremely distressing every single day. He went through with it anyways.

3rd, he is God. Why should God, all that is good, suffer physically in this way? It's absurd. He suffered way more than necessary (well, maybe just enough).

4th, he was the hope for mankind. He healed the lame and sick, and taught us how to live and save our souls. He completely changed the world in just 3 years. Imagine if he had been teaching around for 20 years...or 100? This sacrifice...sacrificing thof e hope humanity...is enough to cover all the sins of all time. Can you think of a sacrifice greater than this?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

think he suffered enough for a few reasons.

1st, though some people in life might suffer more, Jesus was totally innocent. No sin was on him, and there was no reason for him to "deserve" suffering.

2nd, he also suffered mentally. Being God, he knew what was to happen to him. This would be extremely distressing every single day. He went through with it anyways.

3rd, he is God. Why should God, all that is good, suffer physically in this way? It's absurd. He suffered way more than necessary (well, maybe just enough).

4th, he was the hope for mankind. He healed the lame and sick, and taught us how to live and save our souls. He completely changed the world in just 3 years. Imagine if he had been teaching around for 20 years...or 100? This sacrifice...sacrificing thof e hope humanity...is enough to cover all the sins of all time. Can you think of a sacrifice greater than this?

So God didnt deserve to suffer... an the amount he suffered was mor than necesary... but prolly the corect amount... oK... lol.!!!

Yes i can thank a grater sacrifice... how bout Jesus have stayed dead forever (insted of jus 3 days)... an in return for that grater sacrifice... God heal the minds of all siners an then everbody goes to heaven... insted of mos people windin up in hell dew to Gods horrible plan of creation.???

 

[NMSquirrel]

Medicine Woman..

you started this thread..clueless has taken it over..take it back!

 

[Lori_7]

Medicine Woman..

you started this thread..clueless has taken it over..take it back!

MW's been kinda MIA lately. i hope she's feeling better.

Lori

Humans can, and do, think all kinds of things that are wrong. It is quite harmless. It is not the thought, but the doing that causes harm.

Re Matthew 5:28
OK. Not a problem to me as a non believer. But for you guys who take these things seriously, let me comment. As it stands, this verse is just ridiculous. Feeling lust when a sexy lady appears is not wrong. It is just normal. However, if you take the words "looks at a woman lustfully" to mean "with lustful intent" - a minor and I think justifiable, re-interpretation, - then it makes a lot more sense. To feel something is one thing. To plan to act upon it is something else.

I find the bodies of men, children, and older people totally non-erotic. However, the bodies of females old enough to have curves and young enough not to have wrinkles - that is quite different! However, when I look at a woman like that, and feel desire, that is not wrong. It is just a natural response. Looked at from your religious viewpoint, if it is sinful, then God is at fault, since he/she/it created me to react that way totally automatically.

but since she's not here...

skeptical,

by "totally automatically", do you mean like "magically"? :bugeye:

 

[Medicine*Woman]

MW's been kinda MIA lately. i hope she's feeling better.

but since she's not here...

skeptical,

by "totally automatically", do you mean like "magically"? :bugeye:

*************
M*W: I haven't gone very far... I'm always here, mostly just reading, but too lazy to comment.

Believers believe that Jesus suffered and died because of the sins of the world. Some non-believers, like myself, don't believe Jesus existed at all. The condition the world is in today proves to me that there is no such thing as mythical gods, therefore, no salvation of any kind has been magically bestowed on us. So it's really not a matter of Jesus "suffering enough." That's just part of the myth.

 

[Skeptical]

Lori

By totally automatically I mean biologically. If someone sticks a hot poker against your flesh you will totally automatically feel pain. I mean it in that sense. A guy has no choice. It happens.

MW
Welcome back. Nice to see a fellow non believer. Perhaps you can assist in spiking nonsense.