Did Jesus exist?

[nova900]

I think the better question is, Can you prove there isnt a God?

Can you prove Jesus didnt exsist?

Can you prove that he didnt do miracles and wonders?

Can you prove that he will not return?

If you believe he wont, can you afford to be wrong?

Notice i said can YOU prove. Not can you mimick what some scientist came up with, or a philosipher figured out, or even what you just believe. But can you prove it?

I have my exsperiences with miracles myself. Can you tell me they were false? And prove it? If i eat an orange, can you tell me if it was sour or sweet? No. And niether have you tasted of my God. So untill you have a true experiance of healing power of God, then who are you to be a critic?

And if you ever do have one, then there will be no argument if God is real, Jesus exsisted, or if the bible is false or not.

So i chalenge you to become an expert. Try with an earnest heart to experience Jesus, and I will pray for you all. If you do try, and really want to learn his ways and feel his presence, then he will reveal himself to you in a way that will clear up all doubdt. I challenge you all who do not believe, or who are skeptical to do so, then and only then can you truly argue the point about Jesus.

If you have any questions, i would be more than happy to answer them to the best of my abilities, or find the answer for you.

God bless you all, wether you believe in him or not.

As someone who believes in God (but not the concept of God as in the bible) I would say give up your attempt to use counter -logic to prove the existence of the christian God to athiests and others. You cannot provide irrefutable proof that your concept of God is correct and all else false. If you could , there would be no debate and no disputing it.

I believe in God or the supreme being but in no way can I prove this to a athiest and I won't even try. Reason being that I feel God can only be detected on a personal intuitional level and not in the ramblings of contradictory texts that claim to know the mind and personality of God.


Many people from around the world have had visions or experiences with mythological figures from their faith system ( such as the muslim man who survived the world trade center attacks and claims a vision of Mohammed led him to safety). So, christians can not truely claim that only they have had religous/spiritual experiences such as this.

Unfortunately, christianity does a lot of damage by falsely claiming to be the only path to God, and has probably done more to turn people off of pursuing a spiritual life.
The arrogance never ceases to amaze me!

 

[spidergoat]

I'm in no position to say what happened to Jesus' body, if it did in fact exist.

It is my understanding that only a few of Jesus' disciples has some experience of Jesus after he died. Mary Magdelene was the first, and she interpreted it as more of a spiritual transcendental revelation than a literal sighting of a dead person.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

The prophecies of the Bible show that it must have been supernaturally inspired. The odds that Jesus' incarnation would fulfill those Old Testament prophecies are mindboggling: He would ride into town on a donkey, He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver which would be returned to buy grave plots for the poor, He would be wounded in His hands and feet, He would not defend Himself at trial, He would be from the tribe of Judah, He would be born in Bethlehem, the soldiers would gamble for his garment, He would come 483 years after the Persian king commanded to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9), on and on. And the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that those prophecies were widely known and not changed through the centuries around Jesus' time, so you have to sneeze at these odds to not see that the Bible is supernaturally inspired.

 

[spidergoat]

Oh, that's an easy one, stories about Jesus were altered to make it seem like he fufilled OT prophecies, and so lend legitimacy to the Christians. His mom was not a virgin for one thing, that legend was the result of a mis-translation of alma meaning only "young girl", rather than virgin.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Dead Sea Scrolls? Jews never heard about the "rewriting," did they?

 

[spidergoat]

Dead Sea Scrolls were Old Testament, and yes, even they were the result of several re-writings, perhaps 7 or 8, by different authors with different intentions.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Who, when, where? Tell us more.

 

[Ragnarok]

Yes, i in myself can never fully explain the true meaning of what i feel, all i know is I have had many experiences with a higher power, even those of healing. I was healed of lung disease literally overnight. I had severely damaged lungs, and doctors gave me only a few years to live. I turned to God when all else failed, and asked for healing. I returned the next week for a in-house nebulizer treatment and x-rays, and the doctor said that all of the scarring in my lungs were gone. How else does one explain it? I asked for a healing from a higher power,Jesus, and recieved a healing. I was 17 years old. Now im 27 with no signs of lung trouble. How does one 'explain' God anyway? Im not trying to anger anyone, or use this "counter logic" but what happened to me is real. Can anyone tell me otherwise? i think not.

 

[spidergoat]

This isn't about the power of Religion, but wether Jesus existed.

 

[spidergoat]

In Israel, the recent publication of the book The Bible Unearthed by Tel Aviv University professor of archeology Israel Finkelstein and journalist Neil Asher Silberman, has triggered a brawl for the last word about the region's history. The Bible Unearthed cites new research that desecrates the Old Testament as `fanciful priestly literature.' Anachronisms and absence of corroborating evidence show, among other things, that the Kingdom of David and Solomon was a cowtown (not a vast kingdom), that the Exodus never happened, that the Battle of Jericho and the drama of its walls tumbling down is legend (Jericho did not exist at the time), and that patriarchs such as Abraham and Isaac and Joseph are fictional characters. The Bible Unearthed also suggests that the Old Testament was concocted as an instrument of political and religious spin. They allege that King Josiah, descendant of David, commissioned the Old Testament to set the stage for cementing his strictly monotheistic religion and forge a national identity.
http://www.victorborg.com/html/rewriting_history.html



During the tenth decade of the nineteenth century C.E. a scholarly consensus was reached regarding the canon of the Hebrew scriptures, the Old Testament of Protestant Christianity. It was agreed that the formation of that canon was an historical process which took place over the centuries in three steps that came to form the tripartite Hebrew (or Palestinian) canon1 of Law, Prophets and Writings. The first collection to be canonized consisted of the first five books of the Bible and was variously called: the Law (Hebrew, Torah), the Pentateuch, the Books of Moses. This collection was canonized about 400 B.C.E. The second collection canonized was the Prophets (Hebrew, Nabim), which was canonized about 200 B.C.E. Writings (Keth珖im, Greek, Hagiographa) were canonized about 90 C.E. This last canonization was understood as ratifying a commonly used, complete collection since the second or first century B.C.E.
http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

 

[audible]

but what happened to me is real. Can anyone tell me otherwise? i think not.

nobody is disputing, that what happened to you, is real to you, nobody would.
but if you try to convince us the your fantasies are true, then we will take issue.

you are quite welcome to believe whatever you want, but you should not be allowed to false that belief on other, this is what religious adults, do to there children, which is child abuse.

which brings me back to this aledged existence of a jesus person, children dont need the lies of religion thrown into the faces from the moment they take a breath, let them decide what they wish to believe when their old enough to discern, whats true and false for themselves.

the fear for the religious here is, children would see the religious BS for what it really is.

the bbc did a poll today stating british children did not know that dec 25 was jesus birthday, I say why should they, the media and the church should not be allowed to enforce this lie, especially in such a secular and multicultural country now.

 

[spidergoat]

People experience all sorts of strange things, like UFO's. Personal anecdote isn't concrete proof.

 

[KennyJC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snc5AOYt1Ak

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Audible, how do you supposedly know the Christianity is a lie?

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

Mark is believed to be Mark the Evangelist.

Yes,
this FAITHFUL BELIEF
is FAITHFULLY BELIEVED
by many FAITHFUL BELIEVERS.

But,
modern historians and NT scholars do not agree.

G.Mark was not written by ANYONE who met any historical Jesus.

Indeed,
NOT ONE of the NT books was written by anyone who met any historical Jesus.

It is widely believed that it is a source for the other Gospels Mathew and Luke

Scholars agree - G.Luke and G.Matthew are largely copied from G.Mark.

and has been dated to between 60 and 70 ad.

Scholars do NOT agree.

G.Mark is usually dated 65-80 :
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

Furthwemore,
no Christian writer shows any clear knowledge of the Gospels or their stories, until early-mid 2nd century.

Readers would be advised to check ANYTHING someone claims is "widely believed".


Iasion

 

[SnakeLord]

I think the better question is, Can you prove there isnt a God?

Can you prove Jesus didnt exsist?

Can you prove that he didnt do miracles and wonders?

Can you prove that he will not return?

If you believe he wont, can you afford to be wrong?

How in any way is that a "better question"? By your reasoning I can now go around asking people to prove that the invisible flying banana doesn't exist and then believe that their failure somehow lends credence to the existence of the imagined thing, (in this instance an invisible flying banana). It's lunacy, nothing more.

The onus is always on the one making the claims - and it is that way for a very logical and simple reason.

So i chalenge you to become an expert. Try with an earnest heart to experience Jesus, and I will pray for you all. If you do try, and really want to learn his ways and feel his presence, then he will reveal himself to you in a way that will clear up all doubdt. I challenge you all who do not believe, or who are skeptical to do so, then and only then can you truly argue the point about Jesus.

I have taken your challenge and it failed. Here is where you religious types start with the "you didn't try hard enough", and no matter what the circumstances of that attempt, you will continue with your "you didn't try hard enough", until such stage whereby you have shown beyond reasonable doubt that you have to undergo the universes most difficult test, (and still fail), just to apparently hear from this being that you would claim is all loving.

It should be a matter of simplicity if this god is there and all loving. The only reason you guys can come up with as to why it is the hardest possible task in existence is because "well, if you knew god was there you wouldn't need faith and faith is what it's all about". What this means is that basically even you have absolutely no knowledge of whether this god exists or not, you're just guessing. As a result of that your challenge is pointless. The minute you know god is there faith bites the dust, and faith is the very core of christianity.

Which is true, but you have to ask one logical question: Why would the enemies of Christianity mention Jesus by name in their writings?

Stories often take from other stories - whether they're enemies or not. In fact it's even better when you take the hero of your enemy and kill him or make him look like a pleb.

Although written 300 years after the event

Nothing more need be said.

And do you think that over 500 witnesses of the resurrected Christ were all hallucinating, and why didn't they squeal foul when the Gospels were circulating?

What 500 witnesses? Surely you're taking the word of one man that says there were 500 witnesses and not getting the accounts of 500 witnesses. If I wrote a book saying 50,000,000 people witnessed the arrival of a UFO in London last weekend would you state that there were 50,000,000 witnesses or one person claiming that there was? Work it out.

The prophecies of the Bible show that it must have been supernaturally inspired.

They show no such thing.

The odds that Jesus' incarnation would fulfill those Old Testament prophecies are mindboggling

Gibberish. If the writer is aware of old prophecies all he needs to is create a character that fulfils those prophecies. Duh.

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

SVRP,
good post. So evidence points to the existence of a physical man whom the people of that time called Jesus Christ.

Pardon?
WHAT evidence?

The Straight Dope article is mostly nonsense.
I suggest readers find better sources.

e.g. the idea that legends cannot arise in 40 years.
What a load of old dingoes kidneys.

Legends can, and HAVE, arisen in DAYS.

Anyway,
the Jesus myth could have been growing for centuries before Paul and Mark fleshed it out.

Which is exactly what we DO see - MANY precursors to Jesus can be found in the prior literature :
* the dying and rising son-of-God
* the Tanakh stories
* Iasius the son of Zeus and Electra

True, if years right now are based on Before Christ (BC) and After Christ's Birth (AD) then there had to be some man in existence who had some kind of effect on enough people to base the calender years around his existenece.

How silly.

Our days right now are named after ancient Gods - such as THURSDAY being named after THOR.

According to your argument - Thor existed.

Our months right now are named after ancient Gods - such as JUNE being named after Juno.

According to your argument - Juno existed.

Do you still think it's a good argument?

Our dating system was MADE UP 6 CENTURIES after the alleged time of Jesus.

So what?

There are MANY calendarts in use around the world :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_calendars

But as you stated, even if historians and other primary sources note the physcial existenece,

What primary sources?

There are NO contemporary sources for Jesus.
None.

I would like to see some written first-hand witness accounts (other than the 12 apostles)

We do NOT have ANY accounts from the apostles.

NONE of the NT books was written by anyone who met any historical Jesus. The 12 apostles are essentially myth also (with 1 or 2 being based on real people perhaps.)

There are NO first-hand accounts of Jesus.
None.

Also interesting to note that Jesus never actually wrote anything down himself. The only direct quotes we have of him aren't direct.

There are NO direct quotes of Jesus.

Even his last words on the cross are DIFFERENT in the various Gospels.

How more obvious could it be?
This is a religious MYTH,
(based largely on the Tanakh.)


Iasion

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

There is far more evidence for the historicity of the New Testament than for the existences of Plato and Aristotle.

What evidence?
For what, exactly?

Show us this evidence.

And why did the demarcation of human history end up being the time of Jesus' incarnation?

You mean ONE demarcation for ONE calendar.
What about the OTHER calendars?
Hmm?

What about June proving Juno is real?
Hmm?

What about Thursday proving Thor is real?
Hmm?


Iasion

 

[Bubber]

I think the better question is, Can you prove there isnt a God?

Can you prove Jesus didnt exsist?

Can you prove that he didnt do miracles and wonders?

Can you prove that he will not return?

If you believe he wont, can you afford to be wrong?

I would say any claim to the existence of God or Jesus (as the son of God) falls firmly under the category of "extraordinary claim" and as such, would bear the burden of proof. That would be the purpose of this thread, as far as the figure of Jesus is concerned.

I am certainly not going to structure my belief system on the basis that some dude said a bunch of bad stuff will happen if you don't believe every word I say. Belief enforced through fear would seem to be a poor way to live your life.

Notice i said can YOU prove. Not can you mimick what some scientist came up with, or a philosipher figured out, or even what you just believe. But can you prove it?

I have my exsperiences with miracles myself. Can you tell me they were false? And prove it? If i eat an orange, can you tell me if it was sour or sweet? No. And niether have you tasted of my God. So untill you have a true experiance of healing power of God, then who are you to be a critic?

And if you ever do have one, then there will be no argument if God is real, Jesus exsisted, or if the bible is false or not.

So i chalenge you to become an expert. Try with an earnest heart to experience Jesus, and I will pray for you all. If you do try, and really want to learn his ways and feel his presence, then he will reveal himself to you in a way that will clear up all doubdt. I challenge you all who do not believe, or who are skeptical to do so, then and only then can you truly argue the point about Jesus.

If you have any questions, i would be more than happy to answer them to the best of my abilities, or find the answer for you.

God bless you all, wether you believe in him or not.

Are you saying that the only way to prove the existence of God and Jesus is through blind faith? If that is true, and what you believe, then I would say that you have saved us all a lot of trouble. That tells me that there is no proof, and "you gotta believe me dude" is the best argument you could ever put forward.

 

[Iasion]

Greetings,

The twelve Apostles knew Jesus very well.

What is the evidence for that?
What writings do YOU think are from the 12 apostles?

According to modern NT scholars, NOT ONE SINGLE book of the NT was written by anyone who met any historical Jesus.

Not one.

The 12 apostles are essentially myth - they represent the zodiac most likely (although 1 or 2 real people may be represented therein, such as Peter, probably a real person.)


Iasion