Denial of Evolution VI.

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Randwolf,

Again, am I correct that you are trying to make a distinction with a difference among varying rates or degrees of "evolution"?

I'm more interested in what point of evolution do you say ''there's the thing that makes ''macroevolution'' a fact. I guess it must be really obvious because anyone who disagrees with it tend recieves a barrage of abuse and insults for not agreeing it.

jan.
 
Randwolf, I'm more interested in what point of evolution do you say ''there's the thing that makes ''macroevolution'' a fact. I guess it must be really obvious because anyone who disagrees with it tend recieves a barrage of abuse and insults for not agreeing it.
Jan, I'm more interested in what point of evolution do you say "that's now macroevoltuion". Let's establish a working definition before we start using terms in sentences, eh? So, again:

Randwolf said:
I would ask for your personal take on the differentiation between "micro" and "macro" evolution. How do you (jan) differentiate between the two? Where is the boundary, exactly?
Stop evading and answer the direct question. I will be happy to answer yours once I know the context of your meaning.
 
Jan, I'm more interested in what point of evolution do you say "that's now macroevoltuion". Let's establish a working definition before we start using terms in sentences, eh? So, again:

Stop evading and answer the direct question. I will be happy to answer yours once I know the context of your meaning.

Micro - change occurs but animals still look like their parents
Macro - change occurs to the point where animals change into other animals looking nothing like like their parents.

Crude, I know, but you get the drift?

jan.
 
Micro - change occurs but animals still look like their parents
Macro - change occurs to the point where animals change into other animals looking nothing like like their parents.

Crude, I know, but you get the drift?

jan.
Very crude. And totally baseless.

Aside from some horrific mutation there is no case where animals are going to be born "looking nothing like like their parents". You have proven your case. By your definition macroevolution is a preposterous idea and does not exist. Period. I'll even go out on a limb and say that the entire scientific community would be in total agreement with this post. See how easy it is to prove your point when we have simple definitions in place? Kudos, jan.
 
then how do you explain the "creature" that jumped on board "kon-tiki" on its voyage?
this fish was thought to have went extinct millions of years ago.
yet it showed almost no sign of "evolution".

You could just as well pick any primitive creature that still exists - cyanobacteria, the simplest umbrellas (hydra/jellies), the simplest sponges, the flatworm - just to name a few. To the extent they may not have changed much at all from forms that existed over a billion years ago (sponges and cyanobacteria), i would note the following: throughout all of that time, there was no modification to their traits that ever offered them any advantage for survival other than the traits they now possess.

Evolution does not require that a species undergo change. Genetic drift does predict that it's unlikely for a species to remain perfectly stable for extensive periods of time, but natural selection holds on to the best adapted traits indefinitely.
 
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Jan Ardena

The answer to your question would be no as the are bth dogs.

You are now admitting that man and apes are both apes? There are actually fewer morphological differences between man and Bonobos than there are between a chihuahua and a wolf. So if the process chihuahuas went through was not evolution, neither was the process we went through and we are still monkeys. Make up your mind.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Evolution isn't only about superficial appearance. Creatures evolve disease resistance, hunting and feeding behaviors, reproductive strategies, all kinds of things. Even the modern Coelacanth is different from it's ancestors in many ways including habitat.
 
The Kon-Tiki expedition of 1947 is not famous because it discovered new fish, although some will find Thor Heyerdahl's description of flying fish and encounters with phosphorescent creatures (none of which leaped, to the best of my knowledge) enchanting.
they spoke of it often in the book.
fish would jump right onto the raft.
apparently one of them was this creature i mentioned.
i say "creature" for lack of a better definition.
Thus, neither morphology nor genetics supports the claim that the coelacanths are unchanged over millions of years. Just that they haven't changed very much.
yes, i said that.

why is this sample seemingly immune from macroevolution?
 
I can't post links because I am a new user, but check out my post in the "Is the neo-Darwinian view of evolution dead and outdated?" if you google search the paper I cited by Denis Noble he gives evidence for the inheritance of acquired characters.
 
I can't post links because I am a new user, but check out my post in the "Is the neo-Darwinian view of evolution dead and outdated?" if you google search the paper I cited by Denis Noble he gives evidence for the inheritance of acquired characters.

i put a link to the thread in post # 1098, p 55.
Here:
But, as I said before -- that's a stupid way to link to a post. What you wanted to do is to single out a post by it's Unique ID: [POST=3086755]James Hogan adds Post #56 to contribute denialism to a thread that has been filled with dishonesty and died over 6 months ago.[/POST]

That way in the event the post is split from the different garbage on the thread, the link will still work. Similar mechanisms back the blue arrows at the top of each of my quoted sections.

Denis Noble's self-promotional site for his book The Music of Life: Biology Beyond the Genome and the revised review article pre-print Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology is not top-notch science publishing. Epigenetics is a small bit of heredity and mutations are random -- quote-mining doesn't change this. Denis Noble is fighting a strawman in that the Central Dogma is just a organizing motif for understanding the vast majority of cell biochemistry. Likewise, this 76-year-old emeritus seems to be railing around Gould's 40-year-old ideas and is not actually breaking new ground.

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/bbc-4-tonight-a-revolution-in-evolution-not/
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extended_evolutionary_synthesis

// Edit:
Added -- a review of Jim Shapiro's book which Noble relies on demonstrates that large parts of the claims are not convincingly argued from the evidence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3342868/

And, if Shapiro has gone around the bend then Nobel is on the wrong track.
 
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leopold said:
why is this sample seemingly immune from macroevolution?
Why do you think it is? Why isn't it possible that it's a species that hasn't changed because it hasn't been through the same "pressures"?

Why have bivalve molluscs retained the same form for like, 400 million years? What about sharks? They haven't changed much since the Cretaceous.
You seem to think that because "macroevolution" is something real, it must happen at the same rate for all species. That's a misconception.

Evolution of a species means it diverges into new 'unique' species, remember? And this happens only if there are environmental pressures--equivalently, changes in the environment so that new niches appear (as existing niches disappear). Evolution is pretty much driven by changes in a species' environment, anything that can't adapt to change goes extinct.
And note that an environment includes all the other species in it which might compete for, or provide, a source of food; it's complex, you might think (and, you'd be right).
 
Things which deny evolution deny God.

Things which deny God deny evolution.

Things which prove God deny evolution.

Things which prove evolution deny God.

Flirting with another woman while drunk in front of your woman causes you to get a drink thrown at you. Sometimes even the cup itself.

Staying with the first woman after show you are smart.

Going with the other proves you are dumb or drunk.

A woman flirting with you in front of your girlfriend is testing truth in love with curiosity.

Truth causes more assumptions.

Lies cause humor.

Sarcasm is a process of humility.

Humility makes you look bad to one and good to another.

Atheists don't evolve.

Individuals who conclude God logically may.

Intelligence is the basis for love.

Both love and intelligence are blind.

The previous mainly applies to atheists, those without love, and blind people.

Blind people use more imagination.

Things which use more imagination often believe in god.

God is not alive.

God is alive.

God is both.

When making one truth we often are bound to realize the alternatives.

Alternatives and opinions suck.

Atheists are more logical.

Logic sucks.

Opinions suck.

Both evolution and God sucks.

Life sucks.

Life is great.

Anything great is immaterial.

Anything true is material.

All things are conscious.

All things are not conscious.

Conscious things always contain iron.

Not all living things do.

All materials are connected.

All materials therefore contain iron.

All materials are conscious.

Consciousness is the basis of evolution.

Material things do not evolve.

Material things transform.

Language sucks.

Alcoholic beverages reveal truth... Even if you don't drink them.
 
I'm more interested in what point of evolution do you say ''there's the thing that makes ''macroevolution'' a fact.

What is critically important, in my opinion, for the person who seeks to make a determination, is for that person to see for themselves how the many disciplines related to evolutionary theory feed into and compliment each other, not just as part of collaborative efforts, but independently and across time. This is precisely why evolution is referred to as the most well-evidenced theory science has ever produced. There is literally nothing like it.

So what you need to do is both of the following:

1) free yourself from any obligation to strictly adhere to a theology that demands an a priori rejection and
2) read relatively extensively on the topic

An excellent book to start with, in my opinion, is Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True. In fact reading just this one book will equip you to engage in the sort of meaningful, progressive and ultimately productive discussion that's needed here, because among other things it provides a good overview of the content of the main categories of evidence along with plenty of nice juicy details.

The problem is, however, that I recommended this book to you 2 years ago and you show no signs of having bothered to read it (or anything like it, for that matter). If you had, you would have an understanding of the scope of the topic that would preclude you from doing silly things like asking for mere summaries in threads like this one.

I guess it must be really obvious because anyone who disagrees with it tend receives a barrage of abuse and insults for not agreeing it.

The barrage of insults is likely to continue, not so much because you reject evolution, but because you show a disdain for the reasonable requirement of learning about it. But it doesn't stop there. You go on to attempt to justify that disdain by pointing to all the ID proponents who have done some learning, as if their adherence to a theology that demands an a priori rejection of evolution somehow magically leaves their objectivity intact.

This is, unfortunately, you in a nutshell, at least with respect to the topic at hand anyway. Nothing has changed, and it's likely that nothing will ever change (although I certainly hope otherwise, if you are indeed interested in the truth about human origins).
 
Why do you think it is? Why isn't it possible that it's a species that hasn't changed because it hasn't been through the same "pressures"?
these specimens were subjected to the same pressures as their brothers that DID evolve.
the ONLY thing that can explain this is evolution IS NOT environment driven OR certain molecular structures negate environmental causes.
 
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