Denial of Evolution VI.

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Contrary to leopolds allegations, it is not my contention that Lewin lied about anything, nor is that the contention, I believe, of anybody else.
i NEVER said he lied about anything.
as a matter of fact i took his piece as factual.
i think those that question whether i did or not should read the thread.
EVERYONE ELSE EXCEPT ME ACCUSED HIM OF THAT.
i'm sorry, they said he (lewin) was wrong
The only contention is that Lewin was overly enthusiastic in his reporting and he had good reason to be. Science had no good reason to print a retraction because Lewin did not lie.
nor did anyone else at the conference.
According to the Sciforums Model™ I have two options availble to me:
1. I can put on my big boy pants, provide the justification for having used the wrong figure, research a new figure, redo the calculations, and re-write the affected parts of my report.
2. Rant and rave until I turn red in the face and accuse my director of taking part in a global conspiracy with big pharma to cover up the true extent of pollution due to septic tanks as part of a plot to subdue the populace by introducing drugs to drinking water and the food chain.
3. accuse it of being an ignorant dumbass creationist that is unable to learn anything.
 
Leopold. The first rule of holes is that if you find yourself in one, stop digging. You have just demonstrated everything that is wrong with this thread, including your reading comprehension.

Consider the following:
Trippy said:
Contrary to Leopolds allegations, it is not my contention that Lewin lied about anything, nor is that the contention, I believe, of anybody else.
i NEVER said he lied about anything.
as a matter of fact i took his piece as factual.
Let's analyze that sentence shall we?
"Contrary to Leopolds allegations..."
Here I am saying you have made an accusation (allegation).

"...It is not my contention... ...nor is it that... ...of anybody else..."
I am stating out right that nobody is giving an opinion or making a statement that something is true. There is a caveat in this part of the statement:
"...I believe..."
So it's only my opinion that others are not making some statement.

"...Lewin lied..."
And here we have the statement in question.

So what happens when we combine these?
I have stated that you have made an allegation.
I have stated that the allegation you have made is that I (and others) think Lewin must have lied.
I have stated that I believe this allegation to be false.
I have, at no time, accused you of accusing Lewin of lying. I would be within my rights to demand an apology at this point, and probably should. I will instead simply request that either you brush up on your readinmg comprehension, your critical reading skills, or take a step back from the conversation to calm down.

nor did anyone else at the conference.
Nor did anybody else at the conference what? You've already been pointed to five "letters to the editor" which point out Lewins errors in his news editorial.

3. accuse it of being an ignorant dumbass creationist that is unable to learn anything.
If the shirt fits...
 
Why start with the eiffel tower?
It's tall, steel, and easily recognizable. I also think it may be one of the few architectural landmarks that Emmerich hasn't demolished on film yet. (After research this turns out to not be true. But he hasn't yet blown it up.)
I'm sure I could do some research linking it to the destruction of the world trade center, which would also explain the governments desire to link its destruction to islamic extremists.
If by research you mean the malarky scientists in Emmerich movies do, I'm sure you (or rather Channing Tatum) could.
I think I'd rather be played by Hugh Jackman, he's closer to my height than Channing Tatum is. Channing Tatum would still be an acceptable choice though.
Hugh Jackman has been offered the role of "Mr. Big" -- the Australian (ala Hollywood, Paul Hogan and Kevin Kline) in 80's executive wear (lapels as wide as the sky) who controls the 100-year-old conspiracy. Roight!
 
if you haven't got a peer reviewed source to back it up then this is only your opinion.
ah, i now see the connection between invert and xev . . .
1. This doesn't make any sense.
2. This really doesn't make any sense.
3. This still doesn't make any sense, even in the context of the snippet it pretends to be a reply to.
4. Lewins news editorial was not peer reviewed.
5. The saying is "If the shirt fits, wear it" a related saying is "If the cap fits, wear it."
 
It's tall, steel, and easily recognizable. I also think it may be one of the few architectural landmarks that Emmerich hasn't demolished on film yet. (After research this turns out to not be true. But he hasn't yet blown it up.)
Fair enough.

If by research you mean the malarky scientists in Emmerich movies do, I'm sure you (or rather Channing Tatum) could.
Of course, you didn't think I meant real research did you? :D

Hugh Jackman has been offered the role of "Mr. Big" -- the Australian (ala Hollywood, Paul Hogan and Kevin Kline) in 80's executive wear (lapels as wide as the sky) who controls the 100-year-old conspiracy. Roight!
Sir, I like your style.
 
the thing is, i never questioned evolution to begin with.

The geological record [is] extremely imperfect, and will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory.

C. Darwin, Origin of Species, 1859.​

i wanted answers to the article.

The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record.

Ibid., p. 280.​

they aren't goiung to find the transitional fossils because they must have 3 or more.
one fossil alone can easily be seen as it's own line but 3 or more would clearly show the transition.

I have found it difficult, when looking at any two species, to avoid picturing to myself, forms directly intermediate between them. But this is a wholly false view; we should always look for forms intermediate between each species and a common but unknown progenitor; and the progenitor will generally have differed in some respects from all its modified descendants. To give a simple illustration: the fantail and pouter pigeons have both descended from the rock-pigeon; if we possessed all the intermediate varieties which have ever existed, we should have an extremely close series between both and the rock-pigeon; but we should have no varieties directly intermediate between the fantail and pouter; none, for instance, combining a tail somewhat expanded with a crop somewhat enlarged, the characteristic features of these two breeds. These two breeds, moreover, have become so much modified, that if we had no historical or indirect evidence regarding their origin, it would not have been possible to have determined from a mere comparison of their structure with that of the rock-pigeon, whether they had descended from this species or from some other allied species, such as C. oenas.

Ibid. Chapter IX.


No_Transitional_Fossils_by_Domain_of_Darwin.jpg


 
I have found it difficult, when looking at any two species, to avoid picturing to myself, forms directly intermediate between them. But this is a wholly false view; we should always look for forms intermediate between each species and a common but unknown progenitor; and the progenitor will generally have differed in some respects from all its modified descendants. To give a simple illustration: the fantail and pouter pigeons have both descended from the rock-pigeon; if we possessed all the intermediate varieties which have ever existed, we should have an extremely close series between both and the rock-pigeon; but we should have no varieties directly intermediate between the fantail and pouter; none, for instance, combining a tail somewhat expanded with a crop somewhat enlarged, the characteristic features of these two breeds. These two breeds, moreover, have become so much modified, that if we had no historical or indirect evidence regarding their origin, it would not have been possible to have determined from a mere comparison of their structure with that of the rock-pigeon, whether they had descended from this species or from some other allied species, such as C. oenas.

Ibid. Chapter IX.​
this was how piltdown man was able to fool science for 40 years.
science isn't going to be fooled again like that.

the duckbilled platypus, if fossiled, could be seen as a cross between anything

even 2 or 3 samples that fit my definition would be enough to elevate evolution to a law.
 
even 2 or 3 samples that fit my definition would be enough to elevate evolution to a law.

You write some of the dumbest things.

1. You have been given numerous examples of transitional fossiles that meet your definition
2. No matter how many are found the theory of evolution will not become the law of evolution
3. Evolution is taught as fact because, guess what, it is.
 
I've done more research than I would care to admit over the last few days, and I have come to some conclusions regarding some matters that have yet to be raised in this thread. I don't really have time to go into them at the moment as the explanations are approaching essay like proportions.

So, here's the thing.

At the time the new synthesis came into being, it came about, basically, because of Mendels genetics. All of a sudden, population genetics and similar studies were the new kids on the block and the kings of the table, meanwhile, Geology, and paleontology were the poor kids feeding off the scraps at the table. Nobody was interested in what stratigraphy, and specifically fossilized marine invertebrates had to say.

In those fields, basically, we had assemblages that extended tens of millions of years and were global in distribution. This evidence, they felt, was being largely ignored by the others, because it was widely regarded that the fossil record was too incomplete to be of any use. The paleontologists, more or less, wandered off and developed their own field, paleo biology. One of the things they noted, was that in their assemblages of marine bivalves, things would happen like... You would have Inoceramus labiatus, and you would have Inoceramus dungveganensis. It was clear, especially when compared with (for example) Inoceramus steenstrupi that there was a progression. There were certain morphological features relating to things like the morphology of the growth rings, and the shape of the shell, that showed a clear progression, with an equally clear stratigraphic progression.

All without intermediate forms.

To put it another way.
Morphologically and stratigraphically there is no intermediate between Inoceramus dunveganensis and Inocermaus labiatus.

They found this problematic, I gather, because they took from the new synthesis that there should be an intermediate form between these two that overlapped stratigraphically and shared morphological features with both. So they developed the field of paleobiology.

It was in this context, from what I have been able to gather, that the hypothesis of punctuated equilbrium was first formulated. The argument then became one of reductionism versus holism. Some (for example Gould) argued that macroevolution and microevolution were seperate processes, some argued that macroevolution was reducible to microevolution. At the time there were 4 dimensions recognized to evolution 1:Genetics; 2:Development; 3: All possible Phenotypes; 4:The adaptive filter. The debate that was had was whether macroevolution was, like microevolution, a manifestation of these four dimension, or a fifth dimension in its own right.

These days, as I understand it, things have changed. After a 'bit of a to-do' in the eighties, that started with the conference and was aggravated by some papers published by Gould at the same time, the people at the big-boys table started paying more attention to paleobiology and paleontology. It wasn't easy, it wasn't pretty, at times it was even ugly, but now paleontology and paleobiology are equal partners at the bigboys table instead of feeding on crumbs at the kiddies table.

That, however, is the context that Lewins news editorial must be considered in. It is an overly enthuesiastic report written by a supporter of puntuated equilibrium at a time when paleobiology and paleontology were regarded as the poor country cousins with nothing serious to offer because everybody knows the fossil record is incomplete and therefore virtually useless, right?
 
It is an overly enthuesiastic report written by a supporter of puntuated equilibrium at a time when paleobiology and paleontology were regarded as the poor country cousins with nothing serious to offer because everybody knows the fossil record is incomplete and therefore virtually useless, right?
i also feel it wasn't truly written for the layman.
 
I'll take that bet Leopold. A law, in science, is something which is universally observed while a theory seeks to explain what is observed. The "theory of evolution" explains the diversity of life on this planet while a law(such as the "law of gravity") would be something which is not restricted to our planet(or any other planet on which we might find life). It should also be noted that we have theories which explain the laws we observe.
 
this was how piltdown man was able to fool science for 40 years.
science isn't going to be fooled again like that.
That was a case of evidence tampering, completely unrelated to the question Darwin addressed in the excerpt from Chap IX. This is primarily an answer to the question you are asking concerning the proper way to interpret fossils. Among the many insights Darwin gives - including his scholarship in paleontology - is that transitional forms may not blend traits on a linear continuum as you might be assuming they do. He asserts the importance of the genotype continuum (without even knowledge of DNA, and probably not aware of Mendel's work in genetics) as a matter of observation in living forms. But, as he said, we should not assume there is an intermediate form that blends traits we arbitrarily choose to single out. That, leo, is how I think science can not be fooled again. There's always more than meets the eye.

Darwin gives a surprisingly in-depth treatment of geology for someone who started his career as a sort of buccaneer. He elaborates on processes only recently coming into view in the fledgling field, largely by his following of Sir Charles Lyell (who brought geology into mainstream science). Darwin goes into a number of processes being overlooked here, from subsidence to flooding and deposition, to the wide variation in bed depth at different locales. He talks about migration of fossilized animals, and the reason the tapir on one continent may emerge as a horse on another, although horses in primitive forms are good examples of the fossils you are saying don't exist. In any case Darwin is noting that we have to be careful about discerning how mobile many animals were, and the discontinuity of their co-location in the same way, say, snails or bivalves are laid down, since their ranges of habitat are not constrained. At one point he says:

Thus the geological record will almost necessarily be rendered intermittent. I feel much confidence in the truth of these views, for they are in strict accordance with the general principles inculcated by Sir C. Lyell; and E. Forbes independently arrived at a similar conclusion.

But you would need to read it for yourself to discover the full flavor of Darwin's explanation.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/on-the-origin/chapter09.html

the duckbilled platypus, if fossiled, could be seen as a cross between anything
The platypus may seem to you like a "cross", but that's because you are imposing your subjective opinions of how some anatomical features look like they were assembled in a wetland chop shop. For purposes of this discussion it's better treated as a divergent form, belonging to a clade of Cretaceous monotremes (egg laying mammals) that are all but extinct. More than likely it (and its extant relatives) provide some insight into how/when mammals diverged from their egg-laying tetrapod ancestors. Since its genome has been recently sequenced, we may soon see even more information springing from this that updates the number of transitional forms from that era.

Since you seem to be focusing on a certain kind of aggregation of morphologies, I think you would do better picking a few standard examples like the ones given - Archaeopteryx and tiklaatik were given on several occasions. There are plenty of science sites with info on them and numerous other examples.

even 2 or 3 samples that fit my definition would be enough to elevate evolution to a law.
Since that's essentially a creationist argument, it's only necessary is to blow the pseudoscience out of the water. In the meantime you can pick as many examples of transitional forms as you choose - you would just have to be careful defining what it is you are looking for, and to be mindful of not making the error Darwin spoke about. Keeping this on a pop-science level, Google gives you a veritable plethora of examples.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/lines/IAtransitional.shtml

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/photogalleries/darwin-birthday-evolution/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/fossil-evidence.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
 
you know, i'm posing questions and offering my opinions as any layman would.

And here I thought it was the duty of the layman to secure at least a basic understanding of the subject they want to discuss. If you're going to come into a discussion without even basic knowledge then it's pretty foolish to get defensive when people call you on it.
 
you know, i'm posing questions and offering my opinions as any layman would.

No, you are not. A layman, without an agenda, might ask if there are any transition fossil and when prestented with the evience would then move on, but you haven't. You said there are no transition fossils and no matter how many examples your are given you ignore them. You are a creationist with an agenda - it is painfully obvious. Your arguments have been thoroughly blownout of the water. Anyone (assuming they have average intelligence and an open mind) reading this thread will see that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming and you have done nothing but help to clarify that fact.

Good job!
 
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