Denial of Evolution VI.

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this was how piltdown man was able to fool science for 40 years.
science isn't going to be fooled again like that.
Ermm science was never fooled by "Piltdown Man".

Almost from the outset, Woodward's reconstruction of the Piltdown fragments was strongly challenged. At the Royal College of Surgeons copies of the same fragments used by the British Museum in their reconstruction were used to produce an entirely different model, one that in brain size and other features resembled a modern human. This reconstruction, by Prof. (later Sir) Arthur Keith, was called Homo piltdownensis in reflection of its more human appearance.[3]

Woodward's reconstruction included apelike canine teeth, which was itself controversial. In August 1913, Woodward, Dawson and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest and friend of Dawson who had trained as a paleontologist and geologist, began a systematic search of the spoil heaps specifically to find the missing canines. Teilhard soon found a canine that, according to Woodward, fitted the jaw perfectly. A few days later Teilhard moved to France and took no further part in the discoveries. Noting that the tooth "corresponds exactly with that of an ape",[4] Woodward expected the find to end any dispute over his reconstruction of the skull. However, Keith attacked the find. Keith pointed out that human molars are the result of side to side movement when chewing. The canine in the Piltdown jaw was impossible as it prevented side to side movement. To explain the wear on the molar teeth, the canine could not have been any higher than the molars. Grafton Elliot Smith, a fellow anthropologist, sided with Woodward, and at the next Royal Society meeting claimed that Keith's opposition was motivated entirely by ambition. Keith later recalled, "Such was the end of our long friendship."[5]

As early as 1913, David Waterston of King's College London published in Nature his conclusion that the sample consisted of an ape mandible and human skull.[6] Likewise, French paleontologist Marcellin Boule concluded the same thing in 1915. A third opinion from American zoologist Gerrit Smith Miller concluded Piltdown's jaw came from a fossil ape. In 1923, Franz Weidenreich examined the remains and correctly reported that they consisted of a modern human cranium and an orangutan jaw with filed-down teeth



From the outset, some scientists expressed skepticism about the Piltdown find (see above). G.S. Miller, for example, observed in 1915 that "deliberate malice could hardly have been more successful than the hazards of deposition in so breaking the fossils as to give free scope to individual judgment in fitting the parts together."[10] In the decades prior to its exposure as a forgery in 1953, scientists increasingly regarded Piltdown as an enigmatic aberration inconsistent with the path of hominid evolution as demonstrated by fossils found elsewhere.[1] Skeptical scientists only increased in number as more fossils were found.[citation needed]

In November 1953, Time published evidence gathered variously by Kenneth Page Oakley, Sir Wilfrid Edward Le Gros Clark and Joseph Weiner proving that the Piltdown Man was a forgery[11] and demonstrating that the fossil was a composite of three distinct species. It consisted of a human skull of medieval age, the 500-year-old lower jaw of a Sarawak orangutan and chimpanzee fossil teeth. Someone had created the appearance of age by staining the bones with an iron solution and chromic acid. Microscopic examination revealed file-marks on the teeth, and it was deduced from this that someone had modified the teeth to a shape more suited to a human diet.

The Piltdown man hoax succeeded so well because, at the time of its discovery, the scientific establishment believed that the large modern brain preceded the modern omnivorous diet, and the forgery provided exactly that evidence. It has also been thought that nationalism and cultural prejudice played a role in the less-than-critical acceptance of the fossil as genuine by some British scientists.[6] It satisfied European expectations that the earliest humans would be found in Eurasia, and the British, it has been claimed,[6] also wanted a first Briton to set against fossil hominids found elsewhere in Europe, including France and Germany.



The only people fooled by it were those who could not accept that modern man came out of Africa.

the duckbilled platypus, if fossiled, could be seen as a cross between anything
Heh..

What? You think a duck and another animal did the deed and from that ungodly union, the platypus was born?

Reality is vastly different.

even 2 or 3 samples that fit my definition would be enough to elevate evolution to a law.

Oh good grief..
 
leopold said:
can i say you {rpenner} have no understanding of equations, evo theory, or science?
Why yes, you can. And it would make a fine addition to your posting here -

allow me to admire the edifice a sec -

Ok,
leopold said:
can't i even raise the question of interest in an evo equation(s)?
Not only the question of it, but some actual interest itself, followed by a quick internet survey or the like, would be more than appropriate.
leopold said:
as a matter of fact it seems impossible for it NOT to be reducible.
Well that settles that. On to the next topic:
leopold said:
can you give some examples where common life reactions do not follow an equation?
like i said, this implies a direction
South, is my guess.
 
Ermm science was never fooled by "Piltdown Man".
the point is people find and see what they are looking for.
piltdown is beside the point anyway, but people must realize it happened and why.
paleontologists aren't going to be taken like that again and that can lead to over analysis.
Heh..

What? You think a duck and another animal did the deed and from that ungodly union, the platypus was born?
no, that's not what i meant.
i believe the question was directed to trippy anyway.
Oh good grief..
it was speculation and an opinion on my part, no big deal.
 
can i say you have no understanding of equations, evo theory, or science?

Sure! You've said nearly everything else.

can't i even raise the question of interest in an evo equation(s)?
as a matter of fact it seems impossible for it NOT to be reducible.
can you give some examples where common life reactions do not follow an equation?

Genetic inheritance (somewhat random)
Cancer (damage to oncogenes, also somewhat random)
Contagion (largely chaotic)

Would you like other examples?

actually you start with an observation, formulate hypothesis about said observation, then test those hypothesis.
science is a method of discovery, not one of proof.

Correct! The corollary to that is that once something is well tested and verified, it becomes part of science, to be abandoned only in the face of even stronger evidence to the contrary.
 
the point is people find and see what they are looking for.
Piltdown Man is a terrible example if that is the point you are trying to make. The scientific and medical community expressed doubt and disbelief right from the outset of the "discovery" of Piltdown Man.


piltdown is beside the point anyway,
Then why did you try and make it?

but people must realize it happened and why.
It happened because some individual(s) decided to glue different parts of human, ape and canine, skull, bones, teeth and skull fragments together and tried to pass it off as the missing link that they tried to claim happened in Europe/England. The scientific community rejected it for a variety of reasons. Firstly, when they looked at the wear on the canine teeth, they realised that hominids chew differently to canines and the canine teeth in the Piltdown Man skull were not even hominid and that no 'missing link' could chew like a dog when all hominids prior to homo sapiens had shown similar wear to their teeth.

Not only that, but when the looked at similar pieces of bone fragments and put them together, the results were vastly different to what Piltdown Man was.

And these are just a few reasons off the top of my head... Leaving aside, of course, the fact that they found some of the bones and teeth had been filed to fit to create Piltdown Man.

The reason Piltdown happened and "why" is because there were some who scoffed at the thought that they, white Europeans (British in this case), had all descended from ancestors that came out of Africa. Piltdown Man happened because there were some who wished to use science and the theory of evolution to fit into their own racial and nationalistic beliefs.

He was the expected "missing link" a mixture of human and ape with the noble brow of Homo sapiens and a primitive jaw. Best of all, he was British!

Your use of it is interesting however.

Piltdown man has been the focus of many myths and misconceptions, many of which are assiduously repeated by creationists for whom Piltdown man is a popular club with which to assail evolution.

paleontologists aren't going to be taken like that again and that can lead to over analysis.
Well for one thing, they have better tools for dating now.

But you also fail to realise one of the most important things about Piltdown Man. The fraud was exposed by scientists. Once they were allowed to examine it, they exposed it as a fraud:

The main reason Piltdown was not spotted as a fraud much earlier was that scientists weren't allowed to see the "evidence," which was kept securely locked in the British Museum. Instead of focusing their attention on examining the "facts" more closely with an eye to discovering the fraud, scientists weren't even allowed to examine the physical evidence at all! They had to deal with plaster molds and be satisfied with a quick look at the originals to justify the claim that the models were accurate.

no, that's not what i meant.
i believe the question was directed to trippy anyway.
And?

it was speculation and an opinion on my part, no big deal.
Don't trip over in the back pedaling..
 
leopold



That something has been learned in the last 30 years that negates and falsifies the ideas expressed by a conference in 1983(or more accurately, that falsifies the OPINION of a biased reporter in the editorial section of the magazine Science).
i mentioned long ago that molecular evolution explained the gaps but did nothing to fill them.
what am i denying here?
The point is correcting your idiocy uses effort better used to learn something new.
it was conveniently renamed a denial thread long ago grumpy, what is there to worry about?
GMO corporations will pay through the nose for solutions for molecular evolution and the equations that govern it.
 
leopold said:
i mentioned long ago that molecular evolution explained the gaps but did nothing to fill them.
And since there are more and more gaps all the time (every transitional fossil discovered creates two gaps where before there was only one), the problem will only grow over time.

Best to just give up - this gap filling is obviously a hopeless endeavor, and the evolutionists just laugh it off.

GMO corporations will pay through the nose for solutions for molecular evolution and the equations that govern it
Only to prevent publication, blackmail. But the notion is fanciful anyway - they've nothing to worry about.
 
Originally Posted by Zeno

How does evolution occur if every time somebody is born they get 50% of their genetic information from mommy and 50% from daddy? All of the information that goes to make that individual was already in existence in the previous generation.
Originally posted by rpenner
1) Genetic information is discrete and thus 50% + 50% does not imply blending or averaging. It's more analogous to shuffling two pack of cards and taking 26 from each deck.
Yes. I agree.
2) The process of making sex cells (meiosis) has a recombination phase that means two alleles on one strand in the parent's DNA could wind up on different strands in the sex cells and therefore even when traits are linked historically doesn't require that they be linked in the offspring and its descendants.
Yeah. Ok.
3) Information doesn't mean what you think it means. The new combination can easily have traits (and combinations of traits) that neither parent had.
True, but the information was already in existence in the previous generation. For example, a child can be born with blonde hair even though both parents have brown hair.
4) DNA replication is not perfect, and neither is the error correction which all modern organisms use to correct first-level errors. Since random mutation is information in the information-theoretical sense, even if the child is parthenogenetic offspring of a single parent it can have traits that the parent didn't have genes for.
I don't believe this is true. You seem to be saying that the offspring of an organism can express traits even though the parents didn't have the genes or 'information' for that trait. Can you give an example?
 
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How does evolution occur if every time somebody is born they get 50% of their genetic information from mommy and 50% from daddy? All of the information that goes to make that individual was already in existence in the previous generation.
1) Genetic information is discrete and thus 50% + 50% does not imply blending or averaging. It's more analogous to shuffling two pack of cards and taking 26 from each deck.
Yes. I agree.
2) The process of making sex cells (meiosis) has a recombination phase that means two alleles on one strand in the parent's DNA could wind up on different strands in the sex cells and therefore even when traits are linked historically doesn't require that they be linked in the offspring and its descendants.
Yeah. Ok.
3) Information doesn't mean what you think it means. The new combination can easily have traits (and combinations of traits) that neither parent had.
True, but the information was already in existence in the previous generation. For example, a child can be born with blonde hair even though both parents have brown hair.
(I'm not talking about the difference between genotype and phenotype.) Information is more than a matter of counting genes when the arrangement of genes is also a factor.
LISTEN and SILENT have the same constituents but convey different information. So too does the arrangement of genetic information affect its expression in the phenotype. The recombination process can splice LISTEN and SILENT alleles on paired chromosomes to produce SILTEN or LILEEN which are alleles the parent never had. Also genes that are coded on the same chromosome have only a probabilistic chance of passing through meiosis still on the same strand of DNA which is given by a linkage map -- a way of studying chromosomes that predates full sequencing.
4) DNA replication is not perfect, and neither is the error correction which all modern organisms use to correct first-level errors. Since random mutation is information in the information-theoretical sense, even if the child is parthenogenetic offspring of a single parent it can have traits that the parent didn't have genes for.
I don't believe this is true. You seem to be saying that the offspring of an organism can express traits even though the parents didn't have the genes or 'information' for that trait. Can you give an example?
(See also below for the long-term evolution experiment.) The fact that DNA replication is not perfect is well documented and this is covered in first year college biology courses as well as websites aimed at laymen.

Here's a photo of a cat with a dominant mutant trait first seen in 1981 -- its ears curl backwards. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/mutations_05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Curl

It is believed Queen Victoria inherited a heritable mutation from one of her parent's sex cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_in_European_royalty

There are many other examples. Indeed, the Caucasian skin tone is a result of many mutations which better allow humans in high latitudes to get sufficient vitamin C D.

5) Evolution doesn't happen to individuals but to populations.
6) Thus with all the shuffling of alleles and new combinations the offspring is (with quite modest requirements of original variation) a unique individual in the population with a unique combination of traits to be exposed to the winnowing process of natural selection and thus sexual reproduction with recombination is strongly effective as the mechanism of heritable variation required for evolution.

A simpler mechanism of asexual reproduction is used by some bacterial populations and even those can evolve significantly beneficial complex multi-mutation traits in thousands of reproductive cycles. Asexual reproduction requires many more generations to develop a complex trait than sexual reproductions because sexual organisms like humans have dual copies of most genes available and so many mutations are not instantly fatal.

The Long term evolution experiment documented many mutations in populations of bacteria over 25 years, some with quantifiable beneficial impact and a startling chain of three mutations that allowed E. coli to newly metabolize citrate in the presence of oxygen.

In nature, bacteria mutated to develop the ability to eat nylon precursors -- a source of food that did not exist until industrial runoff provided it.
 
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GMO corporations will pay through the nose for solutions for molecular evolution and the equations that govern it.
Now THERE is a special-interest group that we're all lining up to support!

Three cheers for Monsanto. Sheesh!

Leopold, do you hold any opinions that would not disgust the average respectable adult American?

Frankly, you seem like a caricature that was carefully constructed for the specific purpose of outraging us. I don't see how anyone who is consistently so ignorant and so stubborn about refusing to learn, with so many knee-jerk opinions that seem calculated for the specific purpose of outraging educated people in the developed nations, could be real.

You're funnier than the old coots in the comic strips! You make Mister Dithers and Grandpa Pickles look like regular guys.

You seem to be saying that the offspring of an organism can express traits even though the parents didn't have the genes or 'information' for that trait. Can you give an example?
I assumed he was just talking about mutation. The Biewer Terrier is a parti-colored (i.e., the coat is not one uniform color) dog bred from purebred Yorkshire Terriers. It is now recognized as a distinct breed by the kennel clubs in Germany (where the first one was born) and several other countries, although not yet the AKC and the other behemoth show-dog organizations.

I don't think the genetics have been completely worked out yet--which, to be fair, may be the reason that the AKC and other national-level organizations are biding their time. But in a bloodline that has been so zealously managed for a century and a quarter (Yorkies go back to the earliest British dog shows), it's a good bet that it's a mutation, rather than a recessive gene that's been hiding without expression for more than a hundred generations.
 
GMO corporations will pay through the nose for solutions for molecular evolution and the equations that govern it.
And how much do you think they would pay the person that disproves evolution and proposes a newer, more effective, more useful hypothesis to replace it?
 
Now THERE is a special-interest group that we're all lining up to support!
world hunger isn't a valid concept?
are you saying that needing to feed more and more people using less and less land will not be a valid constraint?
why are you assuming that GMO corporations will remain agriculturally based?
Leopold, do you hold any opinions that would not disgust the average respectable adult American?
no.
ALL of my opinions, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, just like you allude to, are disgusting.
go away moron.

edit:
i'm sorry fraggle, it's just i get so tired of being called an idiot, creationist, dumbass, ignorant, troll and being told my views are anti science.
the stuff really does get old after awhile.
 
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And how much do you think they would pay the person that disproves evolution and proposes a newer, more effective, more useful hypothesis to replace it?
in order to "disprove evo" they need to "prove god" and i'm not holding my breath.
replacing current evo theory with a newer version DOES NOT disprove evo.
 
in my opinion the really interesting question is "can evolution be reduced to an equation".
plug in some numbers and out pops the organism.
What sort of equation? What type of information are you looking for?

this would imply a "direction" were none exists.
A direction exists - toward survival of a population. What direction do you have in mind?
 
replacing current evo theory with a newer version DOES NOT disprove evo.

And your newer version would not include gradualism, right?

apparently species undergo rapid change in a short period of time.
there must be something that accounts for that.
my opinion is the minimum span would be 2 or 3 generations, maybe even less.

So, from a:

2zyzs0p.jpg


to a:

2hxnn1g.jpg


in just 3 generations or less?

Wow. That's some magic trick.
 
No you're not. You're a denialist; a manufacturer of controversy. Your posts follow the "wedge strategy" of the Discovery Institute, an intelligent-design political activist group.

The "wedge strategy" was an attempt to recover after creationists had been almost destroyed in the realm of public debate. As science education improved, it was harder and harder for creationists to maintain their claims against an overwhelming amount of proof to the contrary (and against a more educated public.) Thus they gave up on that. Rather than push creationism, they decided to merely manufacture doubt about evolution. Then when there was enough doubt they could say "why not teach alternatives, if there's doubt about evolution?" It was fairly successful - at least until the wedge document was leaked.

A quote from one of its leaders:

"I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science. . . . . Now the way that I see the logic of our movement going is like this. The first thing you understand is that the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible. When you realize that, the next question that occurs to you is, well, where might you get the truth?"
Thanks for focusing. This is one of the ugliest faces of this brand of religion. You had alluded to it earlier in the thread, but I wasn't aware until now of this level of formalization of this kind of strategy, even though it's often detectable in their argument. Not enough can be said about the insidious nature of their lies and propaganda, all dressed up as defending higher moral ground.

Thus they do not CLAIM anything, just as you have not claimed anything. Thus they cannot be disproved. They simply cast doubts on evolution. Suggest that it's not "all there is." Claim that there are no transitional fossils. When they can't claim that any more, they claim there aren't ENOUGH transitional fossils.
It struck me as odd that leopold took that route, arbitrarily concluding that '3' are needed.

They claim that the mechanisms of evolution simply can't work, that they are too complicated to work well _or_ too simple to produce a wing from a leg.
They are in denial of the anatomical homology, down to specific bones, that link all vertebrates in this regard. Adding to the idiocy of this kind of argument is that they seem only capable of resolving evolution to major body parts, and almost exclusively referenced to human anatomy. They apparently have no clue how weak an attack it is. After all, fruit flies can be induced to grow legs out of their eye sockets by transplanting a patch of tissue during early embryonic development. It's akin to pleading 'no contest' compared to all of the deeply rooted evolutionary processes they might choose from, which remain unscathed, except, of course, to their mesmerized congregations.

They claim that of course microevolution works, and that existing traits can change, but macroevolution is something completely different and can't be explained by evolution.

Sounding familiar yet?
leopold keeps saying he's not defending creationism. I suppose in one vein of argument it would be reasonable to plead "irrelevant". That is, even a creationist ought to be able to come forward with some science to add or detract from one claim or another. Ayala himself was ordained a priest and certainly would bring an authoritative voice to creationism if that happened to suit him. But that would touch on true intellect, completely opposite of the guise of intellect referred to by the spokesperson for the "Wedge Strategy". It remains to be seen what leopold defines as an appeal to intellect, because he is unwilling--or perhaps unable--to discuss biology or earth science on a level that would take this thread into a more interesting direction, one of fact checking and discovery.
 
Vitamin D, not Vitamin C.
Fixed. -- I was thinking about saying Lemurs don't require vitamin C in their diet while Chimps and Humans do, which is evidence of common descent with modification, but I changed my mind and decided to write about skin pigmentation (Europeans are mutants) and wrote the wrong letter when I did.
 
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