Demonizing people

Straw man argument. You said: "By "promiscuous" I suppose you mean people who get laid with more than one person in their lives." I have already tried to correct you once, as that group would include someone who has had sex with the two people they were in long-term monogamous relationships with, which has minimal risk of HIV infection.

I have repeatedly condemned actual promiscuity, whether hetero or homosexual. And since you do not seem to have any idea what actual promiscuity is:

Promiscuity, in human sexual behaviour, is the practice of having casual sex frequently with different partners or of being indiscriminate in the choice of sexual partners. - wiki​

LOL! Backpeddling to update the number 1 definition you first gave?

pro·mis·cu·ous
: having or involving many sexual partners

I'm totally satisfied with that one. Hence my point stands.

You just said it yourself. I list "correlations".Anything beyond that is your own imagined inference from the obvious motive of demonizing me. Perhaps you do not know the distinction. A cause implies that all members of a group are equally effected, while a correlation only means that there is a strong relation to the group, behavior, etc. that does not necessarily hold for every individual.

No..a correlation doesn't imply causation at all, not even for individuals. That's like saying homosexuality can cause some people to be mentally ill, promiscuous drug addicts but not others. As we have pointed out and cited many times already, the correlation between mental illness and substance abuse is CAUSED by the homophobia that almost all gay young people encounter growing up and have to confront firsthand. Add to that the institutionalized homophobia of religion, which spares no pains to make clear homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord, and you have the perfect recipe for shame and low esteem and stress and family dysfunction that can result in these correlated traits.

This is why I condemn homosexual behavior but do not demonize gays in general nor advocate any laws to prohibit their sexual activity.

You don't even know what a correlation is. A correlation is merely an association, not a causal relationship. Poverty is correlated to being a member of an ethnic minority, but that doesn't mean being a member of a minority in itself causes poverty. Same with being gay. Your screwup was listing these correlations as caused effects of being gay, as if there are no other more decisive factors like socioeconomic status, genetic predispositions, environment, intelligence, and individual character. They are not.
 
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None of these cultural differences change the fact that marriage is (by default) between a man and a woman.
Are you going to deny this?

jan.

Ofcourse I am. And seventeen states plus the District of Columbia and the Obama administration and even the Supreme Court agree. Denying gay couples the right to marry IS a violation of the 14th amendment clause. Haven't you been keeping up with the news lately?
 
That doesn't explain why, because if you were interested in the cause of the harm, you'd understand that it's the social stigma of homosexuality that makes these traits appear.

But you don't care about that. It's about demonizing a people you don't agree with for whatever reason, probably religious.

Cite a study that clearly shows stigma as the cause, and then explain how that stigma excuses the behaviors people choose to engage in, even knowing the risks. All I have found are studies that merely assume stigma as a cause.

Commenting on the study on the journal’s website, psychiatrist Dr. Mohinder Kapoor of the South West Yorkshire Foundation NHS Trust, UK, highlights the limited evidence in this area. He says “credit should be given to the authors in conducting this study.”

But he pointed out that a cross-sectional study like this can only raise the question of an association, rather than test a hypothesis. The authors “appear over-ambitious,” he writes, because “one cannot test whether psychiatric problems are associated with discrimination on grounds of sexuality.”

To study the true impact of sexuality-based discrimination on mental health problems, a longer-term approach is needed, he states.
- http://psychcentral.com/lib/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/0006527


No, demonizing in this thread is not limited to that done only by the religious.
Sorry, but that was the OP.

I split off the OP into its own thread and titled the thread. If you would like, I can go edit the OP, but I thought merely mentioning it would suffice.

My bold. I think we're getting somewhere now. You seem - and correct me if I'm wrong - to be condemning gay people for having lots of sex, which they do. But so do lots of straight people. You can say they shouldn't, I suppose, but then people do all sorts of things they shouldn't, from drugs to extreme sports to ...... you see what I mean. If that's your only problem then it's one I can understand if not embrace.

I have already said this is not my sole objection. And you can have "lots of sex" in a long-term monogamous relationship, so those would not be the words I would use to describe promiscuity.
 
Cite a study that clearly shows stigma as the cause, and then explain how that stigma excuses the behaviors people choose to engage in, even knowing the risks. All I have found are studies that merely assume stigma as a cause.

Commenting on the study on the journal’s website, psychiatrist Dr. Mohinder Kapoor of the South West Yorkshire Foundation NHS Trust, UK, highlights the limited evidence in this area. He says “credit should be given to the authors in conducting this study.”

But he pointed out that a cross-sectional study like this can only raise the question of an association, rather than test a hypothesis. The authors “appear over-ambitious,” he writes, because “one cannot test whether psychiatric problems are associated with discrimination on grounds of sexuality.”

To study the true impact of sexuality-based discrimination on mental health problems, a longer-term approach is needed, he states.
- http://psychcentral.com/lib/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/0006527

We already cited these studies. Here they are again.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072932/?iframe=true&width=100%&height=100%

http://her.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/1/97.full

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...id=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103889593073

http://www.apa.org/pi/aids/resources/exchange/2012/04/minority-stress.aspx

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1998-07094-007

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J015v23n03_03#.Uzi0lmfn8mw

http://www.uic.edu/classes/psych/He...ess & norms - MSM health, JrCounPsy, 2009.pdf

There are tons more. But considering you offer nothing to show anything to the contrary or any better explanation for mental health problems/substance abuse risks in gay people, this should suffice.
 
Cite a study that clearly shows stigma as the cause, and then explain how that stigma excuses the behaviors people choose to engage in, even knowing the risks.

No excuses are necessay, as it is not homosexual behavior that causes such traits. The bad behavior is in the discrimination of this group.

And what exactly are you advocating here? Abstinence?

I have already said this is not my sole objection.

You keep saying that, as if having more than one objection means that none of them are individually open for criticism.
 
LOL! Backpeddling to update the number 1 definition you first gave?

pro·mis·cu·ous
: having or involving many sexual partners

I'm totally satisfied with that one. Hence my point stands.

I merely quoted every definition that source gave. Next time I will be sure not to confuse you will all the available info.

You just said it yourself. I list "correlations".Anything beyond that is your own imagined inference from the obvious motive of demonizing me. Perhaps you do not know the distinction. A cause implies that all members of a group are equally effected, while a correlation only means that there is a strong relation to the group, behavior, etc. that does not necessarily hold for every individual.
No..a correlation doesn't imply causation at all, not even for individuals. That's like saying homosexuality can cause some people to be mentally ill, promiscuous drug addicts but not others. As we have pointed out and cited many times already, the correlation between mental illness and substance abuse is CAUSED by the homophobia that almost all gay young people encounter growing up and have to confront firsthand. Add to that the institutionalized homophobia of religion, which spares no pains to make clear homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord, and you have the perfect recipe for shame and low esteem and stress and family dysfunction that can result in these correlated traits.

Apparently you did not read what you quoted. I clearly distinguished between cause and correlation. I explicitly said, "correlation ...does not necessarily hold for every individual".

Cite a study that clearly shows stigma causation. I have tried to find evidence for it in the minority stress of different minority groups to no avail, and everything I have read merely assumes stigma is causative.

This is why I condemn homosexual behavior but do not demonize gays in general nor advocate any laws to prohibit their sexual activity.
You don't even know what a correlation is. A correlation is merely an association, not a causal relationship. Poverty is correlated to being a member of an ethnic minority, but that doesn't mean being a member of a minority in itself causes poverty. Same with being gay. Your screwup was listing these correlations as caused effects of being gay, as if there are no other more decisive factors like socioeconomic status, genetic predispositions, environment, intelligence, and individual character. They are not.

Yeah, I said causation was not correlation in my earlier post. Your attention bias missed in entirely. Again, try to quote where I ever said those correlates were caused by homosexuality. This is an ongoing straw man.
 
Yeah, I said causation was not correlation in my earlier post. Your attention bias missed in entirely. Again, try to quote where I ever said those correlates were caused by homosexuality. This is an ongoing straw man.

Once again, why cite a mere supposed correlation as a reason for condemning gay people if you aren't in fact implying being gay causes those correlations? You are the one that gave these as reasons for condemning homosexuality. Now own up to it. Why did you cite them? And do you condemn other classes of people based soley on statistical correlations and risk factors? Wow..We could do that all day couldn't we? Abused women. Teens. Ethnic minorities. The poor. Military vets. The religious. We could have a real field day condemning these groups for merely correlated factors for mental illness/dysfunction/substance abuse couldn't we?
 

These all rely heavily on the validity of minority stress theory.

Despite multiple studies indicating that minority individuals face a high degree of stress related to their minority identity, and that minority stress is associated with poor health outcomes, there are several methodological limitations and ongoing debates on this topic.

First, the minority stress concept has been criticized as focusing too narrowly on the negative experiences of minority individuals and ignoring the unique coping strategies and social support structures available to them....

Also, few studies have been able to test minority stress theory in full....

Most studies of minority stress are correlational.[3] While these studies have the advantage of using large, national datasets to establish links between minority status, stressors, and health, they cannot demonstrate causality. That is, most of the existing research cannot prove that prejudice causes stress, which causes poor health outcomes among minority individuals, because correlation does not imply causation. ...

Finally, it is unclear whether different minority groups face different types of minority stress and different health outcomes following prejudice. ...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_stress#Criticism_and_limitations
 
These all rely heavily on the validity of minority stress theory.

Despite multiple studies indicating that minority individuals face a high degree of stress related to their minority identity, and that minority stress is associated with poor health outcomes, there are several methodological limitations and ongoing debates on this topic.

First, the minority stress concept has been criticized as focusing too narrowly on the negative experiences of minority individuals and ignoring the unique coping strategies and social support structures available to them....

Also, few studies have been able to test minority stress theory in full....

Most studies of minority stress are correlational.[3] While these studies have the advantage of using large, national datasets to establish links between minority status, stressors, and health, they cannot demonstrate causality. That is, most of the existing research cannot prove that prejudice causes stress, which causes poor health outcomes among minority individuals, because correlation does not imply causation. ...

Finally, it is unclear whether different minority groups face different types of minority stress and different health outcomes following prejudice. ...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_stress#Criticism_and_limitations

Nice cherrypicking quotes again. Let's go to the summary of this whole Wiki article that was at the top of the page shall we?

"Minority stress describes chronically high levels of stress faced by members of stigmatized minority groups.It may be caused by a number of factors, including poor social support and low socioeconomic status, but the most well understood causes of minority stress are interpersonal prejudice and discrimination. Indeed, numerous scientific studies have shown that minority individuals experience a high degree of prejudice, which causes stress responses (e.g., high blood pressure, anxiety) that accrue over time, eventually leading to poor mental and physical health. Minority stress theory summarizes these scientific studies to explain how difficult social situations lead to chronic stress and poor health among minority individuals. It is an important concept for psychologists and public health officials who seek to understand and reduce minority health disparities."

So what's your explanation for these correlations? That is when you aren't drifting back and forth between condemning men on men sex and being gay itself. As if the mere BEHAVIOR of a man having sex with a man can increase one's risk for being mentally ill or a meth addict? That WAS what you were condemning wasn't it?
 
Once again, why cite a mere supposed correlation as a reason for condemning gay people if you aren't in fact implying being gay causes those correlations? You are the one that gave these as reasons for condeming homosexuality. Now own up to it. Why did you cite them? And do you condemn other classes of people based soley on statistical correlations and risk factors? Wow..We could do that all day couldn't we? Abused women. Teens. Ethnic minorities. The poor. Military vets. The religious. We could have a real field day condeming these groups for merely correlated factors for mental illness/dysfunction/substance abuse couldn't we?

I have said repeatedly that I do not condemn gay people but certain behaviors typical of that group. Individuals and their behavior are not synonymous.
 
No, it's not an analogy. It's one law in a long list of laws that God gives to Moses.

I'm curious, by what measure do you consider wearing mixed fabrics acceptable? I mean, it's right there in the Bible that you're not supposed to do that.

after years ofstudying the bible and questioning everything, I have come to the conclusion that the bible says 'think for yourself' it is the pastors and such that try to dictate ones behavior.
 
I have said repeatedly that I do not condemn gay people but certain behaviors typical of that group. Individuals and their behavior are not synonymous.

So you are claiming men on men sex BEHAVIOR actually causes mental health problems/promiscuity/higher risk for substance abuse? That doesn't even make sense. Why would getting laid ADVERSELY affect one's mental health and overall sense of well-being? And what is it about making love to a man that leads to higher risk for drug abuse and mental illness? Surely you must have some theory for how this works if you've already condemned such behavior for such reasons.
 
after years ofstudying the bible and questioning everything, I have come to the conclusion that the bible says 'think for yourself' it is the pastors and such that try to dictate ones behavior.

What about the Bible makes you think this? And how do you define "think for yourself?" Is the Bible not to be taken literally? Is some of it to be taken literally? How do you decide which is and which isn't?
 
So you are claiming men on men sex BEHAVIOR actually causes mental health problems/promiscuity/higher risk for substance abuse? That doesn't even make sense. Why would getting laid ADVERSELY affect one's mental health and overall sense of well-being? And what is it about making love to a man that leads to higher risk for drug abuse and mental illness? Surely you must have some theory for how this works if you've already condemned such behavior for such reasons.

That would be another straw man. I have not made any assertion of cause.
 
That would be another straw man. I have not made any assertion of cause.

Then why list statistically correlated risk factors like mental illness or promiscuity or substance abuse as reasons for condemning a mere sexual behavior? Do you seriously believe men, by sheer virtue of having sex with men, which btw includes but is not limited to gay men, are more prone to mental illness and substance abuse? Remember now. These are the REASONS you gave for condemning this behavior. What explains this correlation that is better researched and more intuitively logical than the minority stress of being condemned as gay in the first place?
 
I have said repeatedly that I do not condemn gay people but certain behaviors typical of that group. Individuals and their behavior are not synonymous.

Sorry, but you have not provided any evidence of "certain behaviors" that are also not predominant amongst heterosexuals. You have no argument, whatsoever. All you have is faith based homophobia.
 
What about the Bible makes you think this? And how do you define "think for yourself?" Is the Bible not to be taken literally? Is some of it to be taken literally? How do you decide which is and which isn't?

too many verses to list, but I will list this one:
'Test all things and hold on to what is good.'
(in proverbs I think, (I am bad with names and numbers.))

how to define:
'think for yourself' as opposed to 'do as your told'

literal:
no, I do not think it should be taken literally, this is akin to 'do as your told'

how do you decide?
'think for yourself'
 
Quote Originally Posted by Syne
I have said repeatedly that I do not condemn gay people but certain behaviors typical of that group. Individuals and their behavior are not synonymous.

what behaviours?

the actual sex act?
or the 'in your face, im gay' type attitude from some?

these are the only 2 things I can think of that sets them apart from hetero.
 
A little bit of this and that..

Higher levels of discrimination may underlie recent observations of greater psychiatric morbidity risk among lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals.

Quite recently, inclusion in general population–based surveys of both screening and diagnostic assessments for common mental health disorders and direct or proxy measures of sexual orientation has led to findings of somewhat elevated prevalence of psychiatric morbidity in lesbian, gay, and bisexual respondents as compared with their heterosexual counterparts.1–9 For example, several studies have documented greater risk for suicide attempts among adolescents and young adults who report same-sex sexual partners or a minority sexual orientation.2,7–9



A growing body of research on social inequality and mental health outcomes premises that certain social statuses, such as race/ethnicity, sex, and socioeconomic status, influence likelihood of exposure to deleterious experiences that may affect acquisition of social and personal resources, such as mastery, self-esteem, and social support.14–19 In particular, experiences with discrimination and stigmatization have been shown to lead to greater vulnerability to depressive distress and anxiety and perhaps to higher rates of some psychiatric disorders.13,20–22

For lesbians and gay men, in particular, some studies have shown that they may be exposed to higher levels of unpredictable, episodic, and day-to-day social stress than are others because of the stigmatization of homosexuality in American culture.



Day-to-day experiences with discrimination also varied by sexual orientation (see Table 3 [triangle]). Across a wide range of behaviors indicating discriminatory treatment, homosexual and bisexual women and men were significantly more likely than heterosexual respondents to report their relatively frequent occurrence. These differences between the 2 groups changed little when different cutpoints for classification of occurrence of discrimination were used (e.g., never vs any). Furthermore, restricting comparisons to only White respondents had no appreciable effect on study findings. White homosexual and bisexual respondents were still more likely than White heterosexual individuals to report at least 1 discriminatory behavior, occurring at least sometimes on a day-to-day basis (adjusted OR = 2.66; 95% CI = 1.52, 4.65).



In general, many respondents in the MIDUS viewed discrimination as having had harmful effects on their lives, although homosexual and bisexual respondents reported this more frequently than did others. Specifically, homosexual and bisexual individuals (62.5%, SE = 9.2, of women; 41.0%, SE = 6.1, of men) were more likely than heterosexual respondents (23.1%, SE = 1.2, of women; 20.6%, SE = 1.1, of men) to report that discrimination had made life harder (adjusted OR = 5.50; 95% CI = 3.08, 9.81). Furthermore, homosexual and bisexual respondents (55.2%, SE = 9.4, of women; 34.3%, SE = 6.0, of men) were more likely than heterosexual individuals (20.5%, SE = 1.2, of women; 18.2%, SE = 1.1, of men) to indicate that discrimination had interfered with having a full and productive life (adjusted OR = 5.13; 95% CI = 2.91, 9.05). These differences remained even after comparisons were restricted to White respondents for reports of both making life harder (adjusted OR = 5.64; 95% CI = 3.17, 10.03) and interfering with life (adjusted OR = 4.92; 95% CI = 2.77, 8.73).



Perceived discrimination also was positively associated with the 3 indices of mental health status. The odds of having any psychiatric disorder were significantly increased in individuals reporting any lifetime discriminatory event (adjusted OR = 1.60; 95% CI = 1.29, 1.99) or any day-to-day experiences with discrimination (adjusted OR = 2.13; 95% CI = 1.69, 2.68), after adjustment for possible demographic confounding other than that due to sexual orientation. Similarly, self-rated “fair” or “poor” current mental health was positively associated with reporting any lifetime discriminatory event (adjusted OR = 1.81; 95% CI = 1.34, 2.45) or any day-to-day experiences with discrimination (adjusted OR = 1.87; 95% CI = 1.34, 2.59), after adjustment for demographic confounding other than that due to sexual orientation. Finally, the odds of having high current psychologic distress were related to positive reports of experiencing any lifetime events (adjusted OR = 1.78; 95% CI = 1.40, 2.26) or any day-to-day behaviors (adjusted OR = 2.46; 95% CI = 1.91, 3.17). In all 3 instances, the relation between sexual orientation and each mental health indicator was attenuated by including the possible moderating effects of lifetime events and day-to-day behaviors in the logistic regression model.



Growing evidence13,15,59 suggests that the experience of discrimination can result in negative psychologic and physiologic changes, underscoring its possible role as a morbidity risk factor. Our findings are consistent with this view; we found a relatively robust association between experiences of discrimination and indicators of psychiatric morbidity.


[Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States]




So next time certain individuals wish to embark on arguments where they sit on their high horses and demonize homosexuality and declare homosexuality to be "wrong", they should keep in mind that we have many homosexual members who participate on this site and I'd like you to sit and think for one second, just how your words and your actions might affect someone else.

Because when you demonize someone's identity and their sexuality, they you are quite literally saying that who they are is wicked and evil. Now, some of you seem to believe this is somehow or somewhat acceptable because you don't think this is a form of discrimination. Wrong. If you tell someone or comment that who they are is evil or wicked, then you are already setting them aside as being different - and you are deliberately setting them aside for this difference because you believe it is wicked and "wrong".

I mean sure, you might not call for laws that penalise homosexuals, for example, and you may not support violence against them. Great. But those who employ such tactics as calling it wrong and condemning their sexuality are part of the problem. You are part of the reasons why there is violence against homosexuals and you are the reason and cause of discrimination and hatred against them. Your ideologies and your beliefs feed that sick and evil machine.

I don't need to name names. You know who you are. We all do.

I advised some of my colleagues today that the level of homophobia being allowed to on this sub-forum was quite literally about to result in my losing my shit. Quite literally. I have avoided some of these particular discussions in the last few days because I have reached the point where I am about to simply lose it altogether. I considered just letting it all out. I considered whether I wanted to work alongside a colleague who had beliefs that were so repulsive to me and I had to think about whether I could actually work with someone who spouted so much bigoted hatred while masking it and trying to say that he doesn't hate gays, he just condemns who they are and actually believe that this in itself is not bigoted or discriminatory. And to see this type of ideology encouraged and protected.. It absolutely kills me.

The denial and the questioning of whether condemning homosexuality or demonizing them is actually harmful.. This needs to be asked?

If you need or want proof of what your behaviour does to people, you only have to read the experiences of people who suffered through such condemnation from their loved ones and communities. Who were loved and adored, but told that who they were and what they were was wrong, unnatural. How they are broken down, made to believe they were wrong and the self loathing that comes from that and ultimately, the path to self destruction that always comes from self loathing and the desire to just be accepted and loved for who they are instead of for who they are not.

But if you want to know what happens when you condemn homosexuality and demonize it, then you only have to look at the victims attitudes and beliefs like yours create.

And if you think that you aren't the problem, then think again.
 
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