Degrees of Misogyny

On the one hand, all the stuff about male pundits making a joke of themselves by telling Clinton to smile more and shout less is spot on. Scarborough is probably just now realizing how visibly irrelevant Trump has rendered him

(his last interview with the Donald, in which the camera sat on Joe and whoever-she-is-now while Trump phoned it in and flicked the questions into the trash without a hint of taking any of them seriously - Trump doesn't even bother to Skype these guys -) (Sample: 'Who do you consult on foreign policy?' 'I consult myself. I've got a pretty good brain')

and needs to throw his weight around, at least in the mirror, but he doesn't have to be so damn dumb about it. Seriously - tell a powerful woman she needs to smile more? Bend over, Joe, the response needs more room than your travesty of a mouth.

On the other hand, I've been predicting to the wife for months now that between Sanders and Clinton the first one to quit shouting all the time would win. It's tedious. It's wearing. It's like watching a bad movie where the soundtrack is just set on "Dramatic Car Chase Moment Volume" throughout. The punch-me clown just lays back and stays that way. Trump, now, does know how to modulate for effect, use his voice to play a crowd. It's a dangerous situation we're getting into, and observations of misogyny are going to have about as much effect as observations of bizarre hair.
 
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As Hillary Clinton gave her Tuesday night victory speech in Florida, male political pundits responded to her big night by tweeting about how they think she’s shouting too much and not smiling enough.

(1) A woman can never be good enough.
(2) Nothing says "masculine insecurity" like not being able to think of anything other than telling a woman to smile.

One would need to do a side-by-side comparison to conclude that this is a gender versus gender issue.

1] What did the pundits say about the other candidates?
If these pundits said similar shallow things about other candidates, then they are not singling Clinton out.

2] What did the female pundits say?
If the female pundits said similar shallow things about Clinton, then it is not about masculine insecurity.

3] Did they say anything else about her?
If they said lots of things about her, then this article might be merely specious cherry-picking.

You (and they) may be right that it is a gender versus gender thing, but that would be very difficult to determine without broader analysis.

"...male political pundits responded..."
It's kind of the equivalent of "Critics agree it's a smash hit!"
What critics? ALL critics? Do they all think it's a SMASH?
 
DaveC426913 said:
You (and they) may be right that it is a gender versus gender thing, but that would be very difficult to determine without broader analysis.

Is there a reason, then, you didn't provide, say―

1] What did the pundits say about the other candidates?
If these pundits said similar shallow things about other candidates, then they are not singling Clinton out.

―Joe Scarborough telling Bernie Sanders to smile?

Like I said, nothing says "masculine insecurity" like not being able to think of anything other than telling a woman to smile.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Is there a list of all their comments? It's the only way to compare.

The examples in the article↱ are from these pundits' Twitter feeds; you're welcome to mine their social media accounts.

Howard Kurtz argues she should better connect with the folks at home; Brit Hume, meanwhile, notes, "Supporters loving it", and then asks why Clinton is so angry.

Scarborough can only think to tell Hillary Clinton to smile.

Glenn Thrush apparently thought he was being funny by offering a misguided, presumptuous comparison involving love, kindness, and shouting.

What they're on about is itself predictable sexism. Hillary Clinton's projecting presentation uses that weird voice because it's the one women were supposed to use. She's pushing only volume from her diaphraghm; to push resonance the way men do has always involved women being perceived as angry, scary, or bitchy. Personally, I'm not a fan of the style, whether it's coming from Hillary Clinton or Bill Gates, but it's because it causes one's voice to waver at all the wrong times. But it's also an "acceptable" style of public speech for women; and as Hillary Clinton's profile has risen these years sometimes it seems like we're rolling on these standards because it's her. But essentially what is happening is that she has navigated the course, and now society is to find some way to hold it against her. We simply don't treat men that way.

Watch for context when you search, too. Meanwhile, Scarborough didn't bother offering an example of when he told Bernie Sanders to smile; he just said he doesn't consider Hillary Clinton a woman↱, and argued that she's tough enough to handle the sexist denigration.


via Twitter↱

____________________

Notes:

Saddler, R. "Journalistic Sexism - A Primer". Twitter. 15 March 2016. Twitter.com. 15 March 2016. http://bit.ly/1R7FXrz

Tennery, Amy. "Commentators to Clinton: A little bit softer now". Tales from the Trail. 16 March 2016. Blogs.Reuters.com. 18 March 2016. http://reut.rs/1Vikktz
 
Men managers are assertive. Women managers are pushy.
Men managers are motivators. Women managers are manipulative.

My wife has had to put up with this kind of bull shit for almost 30 years. It is way better than it was, but we have still have a way to go. Maybe Trump will fix it - oops I just threw up in my mouth. Got to go.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Well, it was your assertion; I expected you to back it up. Who's to say you're not just cherry-picking?

You do realize that you're asking me to prove a negative? And that it's a lot easier for you to show me an equivalent example than for me to prove to you that it's not there?

And that's the thing. That's what you're relying on.

You will not find Joe Scarborough telling Bernie Sanders to smile.

Will you find Howard Kurtz telling Bernie Sanders to ignore the people in front of him in order to better commune with the folks at home? It's easier for you to point me to it than for me to prove to you that it isn't.

Furthermore, at least my thesis is rooted in the known record. All you're doing is asking questions according to a pretense of negation. Have you an actual affirmative thesis?

The one you should be able to make the most headway on is Brit Hume: Must a woman always be angry at elevated volume? That's the thing: She is in front of a live audience; she is at a rally; she is supposed to be loud.

They give themselves away, in this case. I mean, Scarborough was pretty obvious, and nobody's quite certain what the hell Thrush was after. But Kurtz and Hume alike gave themselves away; their critique is counterintuitive, but that doesn't matter, because they need a criticism, and all they can come up with is that Hillary Clinton must be behaving wrongly.

It comports with the known tendency to judge female speakers more harshly; it fits the pattern of telling her what to do even when that instruction is counterintuitive; Hume plays into an old trope; Scarborough plays into an old trope.

It's pretty obvious.

You, on the other hand, who already has an identifiable tendency toward minimizing misogyny, come up with the obvious: "Here, prove a negative so I don't have to come up with anything uesful."

It's almost like people want a medal for remembering to not say "bitch".
 
You do realize that you're asking me to prove a negative?
No. I'm asking you to make your case.

It is critical to your argument that you show that pundits treat women differently than men. And that it is specifically male pundits.

The point you've made is merely that pundits make some shallow comments about candidates.

Granted.

You might not be wrong about sexism in this case. It's just that you've made a hasty conclusion. The evidence you've presented so far doesn't support it.

You will not find Joe Scarborough telling Bernie Sanders to smile.
Maybe. Maybe he comments on his thinning hair.

Yes, your case requires demonstrating that the counter-case is absent.
You are attempting to convince us that the pundits are treating Hillary differently.

It's easier for you to point me to it than for me to prove to you that it isn't.
Well yeah. But you sortta need to make a case first.

Furthermore, at least my thesis is rooted in the known record. All you're doing is asking questions according to a pretense of negation.
You say this like it's a bad thing.
If I were to assert that vaccinations cause autism, would you immediately credit me with an affirmative thesis? Would that immediately put the onus on you to show that there is no connection? Or would I have to show the evidence that supports my assertion?

You, on the other hand, who already has an identifiable tendency toward minimizing misogyny,
Ah. Poisoning the well. An attempt to weaken the argument by weakening the arguer. Fallacies do not help you.
 
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Do We Ever Listen?


Melissa Block↱ of NPR:

Later, Joe Scarborough doubled down on his tweet. "Fake outrage," he called the response, claiming that he's an equal-opportunity Smile Demander. He explained, "we've called Bernie Sanders grumpy for a year."

Well let's leave aside the fact that Clinton did smile — often — during her speech (maybe Scarborough was too busy tweeting to notice). And let's get to the heart of why this is so irksome, why it's touched a nerve for a lot of women.

Because even women who don't happen to be running for the highest office in the land are all too familiar with men telling them — not asking them, telling them — to smile.

Maybe it starts with well-intentioned grandparents when you're a kid. And then graduates to not-so well-intentioned, unsolicited sidewalk advice when you're older.

This kerfuffle over women and smiling? it's not new territory, though it IS new for a presidential campaign. Back in 1970, the feminist writer Shulamith Firestone proposed her "dream action" for the women's liberation movement: she called for "a smile boycott" in which, she wrote, "all women would instantly abandon their 'pleasing' smiles — henceforth smiling only when something pleased THEM."

Don't think that ever took off, but it's a tantalizing idea.

The Peabody-winning, thirty-year NPR hand begins her reflection, "It must have seemed like a good idea at the time."

And, sure, there's a little bit of sarcasm, there, but that's the point: If it seemed like a good idea, why?

There are ways to discuss presentation stylistics, and even ways to do so in a useful context.

Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders' "grumpiness" makes for a useful comparison in a number of ways, becaue it really does separate the issues. To the one, people let the narrative get out of hand; one of their recent debates resulted in headlines about flying sparks and rising heat, while a cable-network blogger I read made the point that the most tense moment of the night erupted with a firm, "Excuse me". The contrast 'twixt the parties' pageants is astounding.

But there is a theatric and cinematic character archetype everyone is avoiding, and for good reason. The character is rarely at the center of the screen, and we haven't really seen in much in recent years; it passed muster in part because of the number of Jewish people working in entertainment, and if we track back through television we might remember that Jewish stereotypes have been close to the heart of American TV comedy from the outset. Neil Simon, the great comedic foil of Jewish-American culture, got his break writing for Phil Silvers, and if I wanted to cast Bernie Sanders in a Neil Simon play, the first thing to mind is God's Favorite; Sanders is a little old to play Joe Benjamin, but that's less of a constriction because he's a male, and, besides, his voice and body language are nearly perfect for the role. That and Prisoner of Second Avenue, and maybe The Sunshine Boys, though that was most recently covered by Danny DeVito and Judd Hirsch. But that's about as close as I see it to a main character, and even those are much more dramatic styles.

Because the thing is that we're actually supposed to look down on this variation. Sure, it's only a little, but in its most extreme we would call it exasperatingly silly ranting Jewish man; generally speaking, we get little doses from the chorus and at the edge of the frame―the point is to actually suggest crackpottery.

And I've heard it all my life, and never really noticed it until now. And we're not hitting Sanders for this for a reason. It would be hitting him for a stereotype of Jewishness. It is, actually, a pretty good exercise for people; one of the reasons stereotypes stick around is that most have other priorities that come before trying to figure out a better way of saying it.

And it is true that Bernie Sanders can sometimes be gruff and imposing; it is true that Hillary Clinton can be similarly forceful. But when we look at the moment in question, all of these generalizations fall away.

In the moment, the basic purpose of the presentation is clear: She is in front of a live audience at a rally where she is supposed to raise her voice and try to stir these people up. To wit, that's why it's called a rally.

So it seems particularly lazy when one determined to find something to complain about settles on a woman raising her voice. Howard Kurtz's crtique is also specifically wrong. It's one thing to suggest accidental nexes of circumstance that have nothing to do with sexism, but neither are people going to believe the factors pile up like that over and over again just by accidental coincidence; these outcomes are a result of priorities. These men needed a critique; they could not be bothered to think of a useful one, so plucked easy, low-hanging nuts.

Brit Hume made the point: A woman raising her voice can only be angry. Again, the critique requires we ignore the setting. Glenn Thrush's nonsensical bit seems to rely on a comfortable presupposition that a woman raising her voice can only be shouting and that there is something wrong with a woman behaving that way.

And Joe?

Yeah, maybe it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Would we rely on anti-Semitism to hit Bernie Sanders?

Why should we rely on misogyny to hit Hillary Clinton?

No, seriously, if you've ever done or been witness to that bit where you wave your hands around and say something like, "Vhat? Vhat is that? Vhat are you talking about? Ah, that is such [insert Yiddish or fake-Yiddish nonsense word here]!" then you know this trope. It really is that common. But we don't hit Bernie Sanders for caricatures of Jewishness, and that is how it should be. Why should it be fair to hit Hillary Clinton for caricatures of womanhood?
____________________

Notes:

Block, Melissa. "Think Twice Before Telling A Woman To Smile". Weekend Edition. 19 March 2016. NPR.org. 20 March 2016. http://n.pr/1Pk6ek6
 
Would we rely on anti-Semitism to hit Bernie Sanders?

Why should we rely on misogyny to hit Hillary Clinton?
This is a bad comparison.

Hitting Bernie with anti-semitism would be a case of singling him out for an inherent characteristic specific to him - as you pointed out.
Hitting Hilary for not smiling is not singling her out for a characteristic specific to her. Everybody smiles; it is not a female trait.

You can't criticize someone for being something that they cannot change.
But you can criticize someone for choosing not to do something that we are all able to do.


The grumpy comment is more comparable. Grumpiness is a behavior that Bernie could change if he chose to. It's fair game.

And pundits think doesn't help his image. I don't hear anybody crying misandry for calling him grumpy. (Thus, the cry of misogyny is a double standard.)

No, they are simply unilaterally criticizing candidates for their images. Which was my initial speculation.


(And there's nothing inherently wrong with these shallow comments. This is, after all, a highly relations-sensitive role, and image is undoubtedly a factor. As long as it's not all they comment about.)
 
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Women are targeted with the 'smile' comments. Men are not.

There is a history behind this. It is her job and her role to be pleasing to the eye, to appear friendly. In other words, telling her to smile is a way to put her in her place, to remind viewers or readers, in this instance, that the man making it is in control. She's not pleasing him. It focuses on her appearance and on her body. It is inherently sexist.

Without exception, this phrase means a man is entirely comfortable telling a woman, probably one he doesn’t even know, what he wants her to do with her body to please him. This suggests a lack of respect for other people’s bodily integrity and autonomy. The phrase, and others more sexually explicit, are verbal expressions of male entitlement.

The comments made about how she should smile more and comments even made about the tone of her voice.. Because this is all they could focus on? That's all she is? A doll on the screen there to please and entertain them?

Street harassment of women often involves comments made to women from passing strangers, telling them to smile. To look pretty and in Clinton's case, she is meant to sound more like a woman, smile more like a woman, because apparently this is what women are meant to do. This is what men expect them to do and look and sound like. What they were essentially doing was to tell her to talk less and smile more, because she is a woman.

To put it simply, no other male candidate have ever had this sort of commentary made to or about them. Only the female candidates have. Does this not shine a light on the misogyny of the whole thing?
 
DaveC426913 said:
This is a bad comparison.

Hitting Bernie with anti-semitism would be a case of singling him out for an inherent characteristic specific to him - as you pointed out.
Hitting Hilary for not smiling is not singling her out for a characteristic specific to her. Everybody smiles; it is not a female trait.

You can't criticize someone for being something that they cannot change.
But you can criticize someone for choosing not to do something that we are all able to do.

The hostility you show women in that assessment is disgraceful and disgusting.

We don't hit Sanders' behavior in the context of his being Jewish.

Why should we hit Clinton's in the context of her being a woman?
 
Why should we hit Clinton's in the context of her being a woman?
Who said it is in the context of being a woman??

Like I said, is Bernie's grumpiness in the context of being a man? Why not?

The hostility you show women in that assessment is disgraceful and disgusting.
I've had about enough of your melodrama.
Are you incapable of addressing the issue and absolutely must make it the personal?
 
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Women are targeted with the 'smile' comments. Men are not.
In this circumstance, both men and women were targeted with shallow comments on their personal image.
There is a history behind this.
There definitely is.

But this example does not strengthen that history. Tiassa has no business claiming this supports a history of sexism.

It is her job and her role to be pleasing to the eye, to appear friendly.
You, like Tiassa, put your own words in the mouths of your opponents (who aren't here to defend themselves) and then condemn them for your words. This is disingenuous, and an invalid debate tactic.

To put it simply, no other male candidate have ever had this sort of commentary made to or about them. Only the female candidates have. Does this not shine a light on the misogyny of the whole thing?
EVERY other candidate has undergone personal scrutiny about their appearance and image. What are you kidding me?

Why do you think Hillary should get special treatment?
 
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Who said it is in the context of being a woman??

Like I said, is Bernie's grumpiness in the context of being a man? Why not?
When was the last time you heard political pundits telling a male candidate that he should smile more?

Telling women to "smile" is common. Overly so. It is a part of street harassment, where complete strangers walk up to women and tell them to smile. This is what women face on a day to day basis. So in that sense, it is very much in the context of being a woman, because it is women who face this constantly.

In this circumstance, both men and women were targeted with shallow comments on their personal image.

Hillary was criticized for her lack of smile, Bernie was criticized for his grumpiness.

What's the diff?
Possibly because the critique towards Hillary was, in effect, that she was not acting like a woman should. Notice the comments about the tone of her voice, that it was deeper, that she wasn't smiling as much as they felt she should be smiling, that she was shouting with a deeper voice apparently. That she was acting or projecting her voice in an aggressive manner. I am yet to hear anyone complain or criticise a male candidate for having a deep voice. Yet she is.

In effect, Hillary was criticised for not looking like, behaving like, sounding like a woman. The comments went beyond her personal image and went directly to her identity as a woman as the commentators saw it. You only have to refer back to 2008 to see just how bad it can be. And they are not that much different this time around.
 
dave said:
In this circumstance, both men and women were targeted with shallow comments on their personal image.
The ones targeting Clinton were common to ordinary and stereotypical sexism. Is that a coincidence?

There is another factor - many of the stereotypically sexist comments about Clinton are largely false. She smiles too much, if anything. She smiles more than Trump, Cruz, and Sanders put together. She smiles all the damn time. So where are these comments actually coming from?

Take Clinton's height, for example. It doesn't seem to be coming up, although it is a well-known factor in Presidential elections (https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...af4dfa-5e33-11e5-9757-e49273f05f65_story.html ) If we must paddle in shallows, why false claims about her smile frequency, rather than true and potentially relevant observations of her height?
 
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Hillary Responds


It's an obvious point:

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton responded Monday night to critics who have accused her of not smiling enough and shouting at campaign events.

"Let me say, I don't hear anybody say that about men," Clinton told CNN's Anderson Cooper. "I've seen a lot of male candidates who don't smile very much and who talk pretty loud. So I guess I'll just leave it at that."

In fact, everyone on the campaign trail is loud and not especially smiley. That's because they're often yelling over screaming supporters at rallies and exhausted from traveling nonstop. Yet a number of male pundits have offered unsolicited advice to Clinton about the way she sounds and the way her face looks on the campaign trail. She's noted the double standard.


(Bendery↱)

There are those who would try to convince us that this is merely a "analyzing a woman's speaking ability", but that's the thing, her volume is measured against a standard applied to womanhood. Alana Horowitz Satlin↱ reported last month:

Veteran journalist Bob Woodward received a barrage of pushback after criticizing Hillary Clinton‘s "screaming." Many pointed out that her rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), has a tendency to raise his voice but has generally gotten a free pass.

But not everyone disagreed with Woodward.

"I noticed that over the last couple of, couple of weeks she has been shouting very much," Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump told Hugh Hewitt on Thursday. "I think he's really somewhat right. I mean, it looks uncomfortable and a lot of people would say the woman, I think that she has been you know very, she has been raising her voice a lot" ....

.... Fox News' Geraldo Rivera called her raised voice "unpleasant" and wondered if she had a hearing problem. Sean Hannity said he found it to be "angry, bitter, screaming."

We don't use those words to describe a man raising his voice. We don't wonder if their raised voices are significant of problems. In short, we don't fret that a man raising his voice isn't being ladylike.

But we might also note that defense of the sexist critique↱ requires ignoring what women are telling us. And on that count, we need not be surprised.
____________________

Notes:

Bendery, Jennifer. "Hillary Clinton: Male Candidates Don't Get Grief Over Smiling, Shouting". The Huffington Post. 21 March 2016. HuffingtonPost.com. 22 March 2016. http://huff.to/1MzZKxN

Horowitz Satlin, Alana. "People Won't Stop Criticizing Hillary Clinton For Raising Her Voice". The Huffington Post. 5 February 2016. HuffingtonPost.com. 22 March 2016. http://huff.to/21FCEN2
 
When was the last time you heard political pundits telling a male candidate that he should smile more?
When is the last time you heard political pundits telling a female candidate to be less grumpy?
No one cries sexist! when they comment on a man's hair.

The "perpetration" in this case is "criticizing a personal as opposed to politically relevant trait".
For Hillary, it's a smile.
For Bernie, it's a grump.
For Drumpf, it's his hair.
For Cruz, it's his insanity.
(Heck, for Cretien it was his palsy. For Harper it was his robotic stare).
On all the the way back to Washington.
This is armchair politics.

Why do you think Hillary should be given special treatment? Does she get a pass because she's a woman?
 
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Kitty Kitty


DaveC426913 said:
Why do you think Hillary should be given special treatment? Does she get a pass because she's a woman?

I would ask why you think Hillary Clinton should be treated specially―

Hitting Bernie with anti-semitism would be a case of singling him out for an inherent characteristic specific to him - as you pointed out.
Hitting Hilary for not smiling is not singling her out for a characteristic specific to her. Everybody smiles; it is not a female trait.

―but your history of hostility toward women makes the point.

I don't pretend the apathy you show toward points already raised is coincidental.

As you have argued, Mr. Sanders' grumpiness in the context of a stereotype of Jews would be unfair, but you're just fine with Ms. Clinton's apparent failure to smile enough in the context of her womanhood.

(1) The advice upon which the critique was based is exactly wrong; as such, Ms. Clinton should not tailor her conduct to setting and circumstance, but, rather, what Howard Kurtz, Brit Hume, and Glenn Thrush tell her to do. You have ignored this point.

(2) The women are telling us what the problem is. Given your record of not giving a damn what women have to say, we ought not be surprised that you're ignoring them now.​

So how much should Hillary Clinton smile, since she's obviously not doing so enough. How much is too much?

Why are male politicians passionate when they raise their voices, but women are angry and shouting?

But, hey, a man's hair? For Bill Clinton it was tying up LAX while he got a haircut. For John Edwards it was a question of whether he understood everyday people, given the cost of his haircut. For Donald Trump it's an astoundingly bad flap and graft in the context of his vanity.

Hillary Clinton "shouting" and not smiling enough? Well, here's the advice: You're in front of a large crowd and it's your job to stir their emotions, so stop shouting and talk to people like you're having a quiet conversation in their living room.

Bad vanity surgery is a ubiquitous complaint. Not smiling enough is reserved for women. That one must be angry if they raise their voice is reserved for women. That a master politician should defy setting and circumstance in order to do what a man tells her is reserved for women.

Misogyny is as misogyny does. Coming from someone like you, who argues that women should not be able to leave the house without expecting to be sexually harassed, we're not surprised.
 
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