The long way 'round
Everneo said:
Through out you have no idea what i was saying. Let a moderate muslim who is aware of islamic history here call me a hater.
Okay. Let's review.
Snip Tocket: Let us all learn from this article.
Tiassa: And what should we learn from this article?
Everneo: It is there in that article :
With me so far?
What was that lesson in the article?
Empty claims that jihad decapitations are somehow "alien to true Islam," however well-intentioned, undermine serious efforts to reform and desacralize Islamic doctrine. This process will only begin with frank discussion, both between non-Muslims and Muslims, and within the Muslim community.
(
Bostom)
So, to resume:
Tiassa: The second sentence in your quote from the article I have no problem with. But look at our topic poster's ******** well . . . .
Did you notice that it was the
second sentence, about frank discussion between non-Muslims and Muslims, and within the Muslim community, that I
agreed with? Because I also continued, writing:
Tiassa: In attempting to circumvent any comparative discussion, our topic poster isn't leaving room for much. At the degree that decapitation is a sacred Islamic practice, so is genocide a sacred Jewish practice whose spectre rears its head in the international debate about Israel and Palestine; misogyny is a sacred Christian practice still evident even in the United States. What the flight from comparative discussion shortcuts is any discussion about the significance of the idea that decapitation is somehow sacred to Islam.
Now, admittedly I should have flagged that paragraph with a neon sign indicating that this was my disagreement with the first. I thought the mention of decapitation as a sacred practice would suffice. My bad.
I then involved myself in your discussion with Surenderer:
Surenderer: That article is phony....what Koran 47:4 says is:
Everneo: How it is mis-interpreted to suit a few, then. You guys, who respect quran as humane, should wage a jihad against those few who 'use' quran to indulge in in-human activities.
Tiassa: That's easier to do if others aren't f@cking up the process the whole time.
Everneo: You have someone in mind. But historically, muslims were manipulated by their own unscrupulous elements, in the name of quran and god. Starting from first fitnah to politically ambitious medival 'jihads' upto current islamists (the term immediately push some into aggressive mode, i know).
I'll pause here to note that between your inclusion of "sacred decapitation" in the "lesson to be learned," and the exclusivity of your response to my note about others f@cking up the process, it seems rather clear to me at this point.
So clear, in fact ....
Tiassa: If you knew your comfort of excess was at the cost of someone else's basic human dignity, would it bother you? . . . . It bothers me some. Had I the solution I would be leading the world forward instead of fretting about it in my corner. But you're right. The West is blameless isn't it? Muslims did it all to themselves, and all the West ever did was reap the fruits.
Everneo: gee.. thanks. But i did not say that the west is blameless. Just wanted to indicate how the muslims are exposed to western manipulations and their historical vulnerability to manipulations by their own ; the culprits could be found within muslim community, even when no western country was around to play.
Tiassa: So in other words, we're back to faulting Muslims for being human?
Now, at this point, I'm aware that I'm hip-deep in a swamp drawn off your response to Surenderer, but I consider that digression thematically consistent with your refusal of the comparative context.
And while you do not say the west is blameless, it is a natural result of your argument combined with your refusal of the comparative. How so? Because you keep making points that can only be refuted by examining a comparative context.
Of course, I
am wrong in one respect. We were not, at that point, back to faulting Muslims for being human. You have my apologies for that error; I should have aimed my disgust at your disqualification of Muslims from humanity in general:
Tiassa: But please don't pretend the Muslims were alone in creating their misery.
Everneo: I would rather ask you not to pretend muslims are granted to err.
Tiassa: To err is human.
At that point, you just become downright offensive:
Tiassa: So in other words, we're back to faulting Muslims for being human?
Everneo: we will not possibly get over this until you realize that being human is not equal to getting historically f**ked up by manipulators.
I mean, that was just a stupid response. You pick on Muslims for being human in order to avoid discussion of other people's mistakes:
gee.. thanks. But i did not say that the west is blameless. Just wanted to indicate how the muslims are exposed to western manipulations and their historical vulnerability to manipulations by their own ; the culprits could be found within muslim community, even when no western country was around to play.
You left no comparative; that's the context you established for yourself. I am not going to hold you to it if you're able to argue otherwise, but your mere say-so doesn't make a genuine argument. Especially when you continue on that vein.
Because in the meantime, let's get away from context for a moment and back to the primary dialogue I'm noting:
Surenderer: That article is phony....what Koran 47:4 says is:
Everneo: How it is mis-interpreted to suit a few, then. You guys, who respect quran as humane, should wage a jihad against those few who 'use' quran to indulge in in-human activities.
Tiassa: That's easier to do if others aren't f@cking up the process the whole time.
Everneo: You have someone in mind. But historically, muslims were manipulated by their own unscrupulous elements, in the name of quran and god. Starting from first fitnah to politically ambitious medival 'jihads' upto current islamists (the term immediately push some into aggressive mode, i know).
But wait! There's a secondary issue to consider:
Everneo: How it is mis-interpreted to suit a few, then. You guys, who respect quran as humane, should wage a jihad against those few who 'use' quran to indulge in in-human activities.
Tiassa: When the Muslims control a modern-day empire of 300,000,000 people and dominate the trade and military balance of the world; when Arabic is spoken as the language of business and politics around the world to the degree English is today; when that Muslim empire manipulates international markets to keep white-skinned people in poverty ... in other words, when the "Muslim world" is moral according to our Western standards, if they're still decapitating people and strapping dynamite to their chests in such a manner, I'll believe this kind of sh@t is fundamental to Islam. It looks as if it is more fundamental to being human at this point.
Everneo: . . . . Starting from ones own backyard is the best way to have a clean environment.
Tiassa: I reiterate that it's tougher to do when you've got neighbors who are perfectly willing to turn your backyard into a rubbish tip whether you want it or not.
Everneo: If i am firm that my backyard should be clean, i will take on anyone who dares to dump in my backyard.
Tiassa: Then why are Muslims not allowed the same?
Everneo: Who has to allow them to keep their own backyard clean from their own sh@t as well as others' ?
Let's take a moment to examine that question of yours:
Who has to allow them to keep their own backyard clean from their own sh@t as well as others' ?
What I wonder is what your objection to civilized society is? Why do you protest a cooperative human endeavor? Is this one of those occasions where you think I'm wrong to accuse such? Why, then, is it at the heart of your argument?
Imagine yourself in school. Imagine that your sibling steals your homework and tears it up. So you do it again. And your sibling destroys your homework again. So you do it again. And your sibling destroys it again, by which time you are out of time and are left sputtering, "I tried to do my homework. My little brother wouldn't let me!"
And your teacher says, "What do you mean he wouldn't let you? Who has to let you do your homework?"
So you say, "But every time I did my homework, he destroyed it."
And your teacher responds, "That's no excuse. His actions have nothing to do with yours."
Very simply, dude, "Allowing" someone to clean up their environment
includes the idea that you don't make extra-special efforts to mess up that environment even more and set back the cleaning-up process.
Which brings us, almost, to the present. I mean ....
Everneo: Who has to allow them to keep their own backyard clean from their own sh@t as well as others' ?
Tiassa: Like that, as an example. Absolutely devoid of compassion, and presuming that different rules apply to Muslims than the rest of humanity.
Everneo: That is in response to your question "Then why are Muslims not allowed the same?". Yes, it may be devoid of compassion, just wonder what prevents them to take on all the a$$holes who come under all categories that take islam for a ride.
Well ... one of them
did, with the help of twenty hijackers and some airplanes. And now the assholes who got nailed are absolutely determined that the only shit the Islamic world is going to clean up comes from Western assholes. We may not like the method, but neither do those folks appreciate ours.
You do realize that Osama is getting his way? The Constitution is under attack by Americans, the US is done in the Saud, the Palestinian issue has pushed to the fore in a new context most unsettling to American interests.
It's just that we in the West don't want the Islamic world cleaned up unless it's cleaned up according to our demands.
So maybe you don't get the idea that intentionally going out of your way to interfere with the cleaning-up pretty much covers the notion of "not allowing" a people to clean up their own backyards. That's fine. Someday you will. But in the meantime, I think back to what you wrote to Surenderer--
You guys, who respect quran as humane, should wage a jihad against those few who 'use' quran to indulge in in-human activities.
--and wonder about the logical process:
• A sewage line has broken and is spilling refuse into your backyard. You need to clean it up, for your own safety
and the safety of others. Now then ... what is the first thing that needs to happen before you can clean up the refuse spilling into your yard? Call me foolish if you want, but it seems logical to stop the spilling of refuse. Otherwise, for every bucket of slop you take up off the ground, two more have entered your backyard from the spill.
What you have advised Surenderer is that Muslims should leave the broken line spilling and grab their shovels and buckets and mops in the meantime.
You have missed or have no idea when i emphasized the term historically.
Not really. I'm just viewing that term in the context of your larger argument. Perhaps it is my error to expect any sense of consistency, but that's a separate argument in and of itself.
I repeat, from first fitnah to politically ambitious medival jihads upto the current islamist agenda - the muslims fighting on the right side were shown quran leaf-lets on spear tops by the manipulators of their own religion ; bloody expansions of sultanates were explained as furthering the islamic cause; ofcourse now the terror agenda is shown as islamic cause ! - repectively.
And ...?
For someone standing on the historical, you're not offering much analysis to support yourself.
I have no problem, Tiassa.
I'll let you find a context in which that statement isn't a bald-faced lie.
It gives me no peace of mind to know you think this way.
I repeat "the victims who has the capability of not to be victimized in any manner by anyone".
And
I repeat:
Similar things can be said about rape survivors, but it doesn't mean squat in either case in terms of solutions.
Beyond that, I'll wait for you to state yourself more clearly if there's some confusion.
Establishing myself?. I have no stake here boy. Cool down.
Your ignorance is no excuse, boy.
es·tab·lish ( -st blsh)
tr.v. es·tab·lished, es·tab·lish·ing, es·tab·lish·es
1 a. To set up; found. See Synonyms at found 1.
- b. To bring about; generate: establish goodwill in the neighborhood.
2 a. To place or settle in a secure position or condition; install: They established me in my own business.
- b. To make firm or secure.
3. To cause to be recognized and accepted: a discovery that established his reputation.
4. To introduce and put (a law, for example) into force.
5. To prove the validity or truth of: The defense attorneys established the innocence of the accused.
6. To make a state institution of (a church).
Source: Dictionary.com
See Also:
Entry: argue
Function: verb
Definition: appeal
Synonyms: appeal, assert, attest, claim, contend, controvert, defend, demonstrate, denote, display, elucidate, establish , evince, exhibit, explain, hold, imply, indicate, justify, maintain, manifest, persuade, plead, present, prevail upon, reason, show, suggest, talk into, testify, vindicate, warrant, witness
Antonyms: agree ,comply ,deny
Concept: persuasion
Source: Thesaurus.com
I don't insult muslims as hapless rape victims.
Then don't argue that way.
Man, do you have any idea how i felt reading your volumes of rants before ?!
Any impression I could have gathered would be clouded by your apparent duplicity.
____________________
• Bostom, Andrew G. "The Sacred Muslim Practice of Beheading." Frontpage.com, May 13, 2004. See http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13371
• Dictionary.com - see http://dictionary.reference.com/
• Thesaurus.com - see http://thesaurus.reference.com/
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