Death to Apostates (?)

[Sock puppet path]

Muslims are honest. They don't pretend to bring democracy by calling people of a different faith as terrorists and bombing them to kingdom come.

From what I have seen muslims are some of the most dishonest folks around.
WHen caught out they just point a finger and ramble never admitting their own shortcomings and historical violence.

Actually fuck this I am letting you distract me.

ANSWER 2 QUESTIONS:
WHAT COUNTRIES HAVE LAWS CONDEMNING APOSTATES TO DEATH?
WHAT IS THEIR BELIEF ATHEIST; BUDDHIST; CHRISTIAN MUSLIM OR OTHER??

show you are honest.

If you don't answer it honestly you are a dishonest weasel...that's right

!!

 

[iceaura]

Since mind reading is not my forte I am going by official records. Officially atheist goes into atheist records.

There are no such records.

 

[Myles]

Muslims are honest. They don't pretend to bring democracy by calling people of a different faith as terrorists and bombing them to kingdom come.

They are brainwashed fanatics who blow themselves to kingdom come and take others with them. They have that special garden with Mohammed, his mates and all those virgins awaiting them.

But, of course, I am not referring to proper Muslims. They are the one's who will slice a man's head off for changing his mind about his religious beliefs. For light relief they have the occasional stoning of women who have had sex with the wrong man.

Islam is a shining beacon of barbarity.

 

[(Q)]

Muslims are honest. They don't pretend to bring democracy by calling people of a different faith as terrorists and bombing them to kingdom come.

Islam Honesty and Honor

"With regard to honesty and lying, Islam has some semblance to other religions. There are sections in the Qur’an (Koran) where honesty is praised as a virtue, and in a general sense lying is forbidden. The Qur’an says, "Truly, Allah does not guide one who transgresses and lies."[Surah 40:28]. In the Hadith, Mohammed was quoted as saying: "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell." This approach to communication and ethics is laudable, but unfortunately for many in the world, that direction appears to be intended as a standard limited to Muslim-to-Muslim relations, and does not necessarily apply to non-believers, whom the Islamic God 'does not love'. Unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not only tolerated, but actually encouraged. Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened. The book "The spirit of Islam," by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah was written to promote Islam. On page 247, Tabbarah stated:

"Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1243858/posts

 

[Bells]

Yeah, but did they kill them for no longer being a Muslim? Nyet nyet. Now atheists in their evangelical spree to spread liberation from superstition as they call it, find it necessary that everyone MUST believe as they do, since atheism is the "natural" state. Look at the atheists on this forum for example. Why do they post on the religion forum? To mock theists. Thats all. Because they lack belief.

This is getting old..

The news that, despite the Afghan parliament's last-minute attempts to prevent him from leaving, Abdul Rahman has been given asylum in Italy has drawn a global sigh of relief. But now is not the time to forget the issue. The case of Rahman--an Afghan Christian tried for the capital crime of apostasy--is not the only one, even in Afghanistan, and is unusual only in that, for once, the world paid attention and demanded his release. But there are untold numbers in similar situations that the world is ignoring.

Two other Afghan converts to Christianity were arrested in March, though, for security reasons, locals have asked that their names and locations be withheld. In February, yet other converts had their homes raided by police.

Some other Muslim countries have laws similar to Afghanistan's. Apart from its other depredations, in the last ten years Saudi Arabia has executed people for the crimes of apostasy, heresy, and blasphemy. The death penalty for apostates is also in the legal code in Iran, Sudan, Mauritania, and the Comoros Islands.

In the 1990s, the Islamic Republic of Iran used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders, and the situation is worsening under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The regime is currently engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.

Iran also regards Baha'is as heretics from Islam and denies them any legal rights, including the right to life: There is no penalty for killing a Baha'i. On March 20, Asma Jahangir, the United Nations special rapporteur on religious freedom, made public a confidential letter sent on October 29, 2005, by the chairman of the Command Headquarters of the Iranian Armed Forces. The letter stated that Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei had instructed the Command Headquarters to identify Baha'is and monitor their activities, and asked the Ministry of Information, the Revolutionary Guard, and the Police Force to collect any and all information about them.

Other countries, like Egypt, that have no laws against apostasy, instead use laws against "insulting Islam" or "creating sectarian strife." In 2003, Egyptian security forces arrested 22 converts and people who had helped them. Some were tortured, and one, Isam Abdul Fathr, died in custody. Last year, Gaseer Mohamed Mahmoud was whipped and had his toenails pulled out by police, and was told he would be imprisoned until he gave up Christianity.

While there has been no systematic study of the matter, and many punishments are not publicized, it appears that actual state-ordered executions are rarer than killings by vigilantes, mobs, and family members, sometimes with state acquiescence. In the last two years in Afghanistan, Islamist militants have murdered at least five Christians who had converted from Islam.

Vigilantes have killed, beaten, and threatened converts in Pakistan, the Palestinian areas, Turkey, Nigeria, Indonesia, Somalia, and Kenya. In November, Iranian convert Ghorban Dordi Tourani was stabbed to death by a group of fanatical Muslims. In December, Nigerian pastor Zacheous Habu Bu Ngwenche was attacked for allegedly hiding a convert. In January, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.

Meanwhile, on March 21, the Algerian parliament approved a new law requiring imprisonment for two to five years and a fine between five and ten thousand euros for anyone "trying to call on a Muslim to embrace another religion." The same penalty applies to anyone who "stores or circulates publications or audio-visual or other means aiming at destabilizing attachment to Islam."

Converts and Baha'is are not the only ones subject to such violence. Ahmadis, whom many Muslims regard as heretics, suffer a similar fate throughout the Muslim world. The victims also include many Muslims who question restrictive interpretations of Islam. In traditionally moderate Indonesia, Yusman Roy is now serving two years in prison for leading prayers in Indonesian and Arabic instead of only in Arabic.

(Source)

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The Iranian parliament is reviewing a new law that would impose a death penalty on citizens who leave Islam, a human rights group alerted recently.

In the past, the death penalty for apostasy was one of many possible punishments, including imprisonment and hard labor, for renouncing Islam, But the new law proposes to make death the sentence for all apostates, according to the Institute on Religion and Public Policy (IRPP).

“This is not something new, they just want to be more harsh towards those who are leaving Islam,” an Iranian pastor told the persecution watchdog Compass.

The death sentence was approved by the Iranian Cabinet a month ago, and appears to have the needed parliamentary support to pass, according to an Iranian Christian.

Many victims of the “apostasy” law are Muslims who convert to Christianity, but victims also include liberal thinkers and members of Iran’s Baha’i religious minority.

“The draft penal code is gross violation of fundamental and human rights by a regime that has repeatedly abused religious and other minorities,” said IRPP president Joseph K. Grieboski. “This is simply another legislative attempt on the part of the Iranian regime to persecute religious minorities in the country and around the globe.”

No converts to Christianity have been convicted of “apostasy” since 1994, after the case of a convert garnered international attention. But in the years that followed, converts and those working with converts have been brutally murdered. Local believers suspect the government to have played a role in the killings.

“They [Iran] began assassinating pastors and Christian workers,” said an Iranian pastor, who requested anonymity, to Compass. “Legally, they did not take them to court, but they just killed them and said that they hanged themselves and gave some other excuses.”

In 1994, Bishop Haik Hovsepian of Iran was brutally murdered and found secretly buried in a Muslim graveyard with 26 stab wounds after defending a Christian convert. The convert, Mehdi Dibaj, had already served 10 years in prison, but was still set to be executed simply for the crime of leaving Islam

Hovsepian had garnered support from the United Nations, the U.S. Congress, and other global bodies to pressure Iran to release the convert. After successfully helping to free the convert, Hovsepian soon disappeared and was later found dead. The convert was also secretly murdered after his release.

(Source)


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The question was simple. Does Islam believe in or advocate the killing of apostates?

This thread is not about atheist mass murders. If you can't answer it, just say so.

Most Islamic scholars agree that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is beheading. However, according to hadith, apostates sometimes were tortured to death. The caliph Umar II had apostates tied to a post and a lance thrust into their hearts. Mamluk Sultan Baybars II also practiced torture of apostates. A case is recorded when a woman who had apostatised was led through the streets of Cairo on an ass, then strangled in a boat in the middle of the Nile and thrown into the river. In modern times, followers of the Ahmadiyya sect in Afghanistan were stoned to death. The execution for apostasy was abolished in most Muslim lands in the 19th century either through European pressure or through the direct European rule; however, cases of imprisonment and deportation of apostates still occurred. Nevertheless, even nowadays renegades are not sure of their lives, as their Muslim relatives frequently try to kill them.[15]

Ideally, the one performing the execution of an apostate must be an imam.[15] At the same time, all schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that any Muslim can kill an apostate without punishment.


(Source)
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So, does it exist in Islam or not? Yes or no.

 

[phlogistician]

So he was an atheist to begin with. Bang goes your thesis on Stalin. Pick a side.

All of the people you mention bar Mao had their lives affected by Catholicism, but you totally discount that as having any formative effect on their personality?

Whereas atheism, a null proposition, turned them into a genocidal maniac.

Stalin wasn't a ballet dancer either. I'm not a ballet dancer. OMFG! I have geonocidal tendancies! NOT. Your logic stinks. Stop rattling on about this one, you lose ever more credibility.

You might think you have a hot button here, and that's why I respond. Far from it, I'm responding to draw out your ludicrous assertions for all to see.

 

[phlogistician]

Stalin's mother, who was, admittedly, a very religious woman, ... Stalin ... won a scholarship which entitled him to attend the Tiflis Theological Seminary. ... To even imply that they weren't proper atheists due to a religious upbringing is silly.


Kadark

I have never said that phrase. Sam has tried putting those words in others mouths though!

I merely stated that in three out of the four people she mentioned, Catholicism was a common factor, and the fourth, Mao, killed people though malpractice, and causing famine.

You can't logically group people by what they are not. Sam is being totally dishonest here.

 

[S.A.M.]

So, does it exist in Islam or not? Yes or no.

You tell me. Does it exist in Islam?

 

[Bells]

You tell me. Does it exist in Islam?

You're the expert on the religion. You tell me. I am a mere atheist who is curious and would like a question answered.

Seriously, I am curious. The Quran remains silent on the course of punishment for apostasy, but hadiths support the death penalty...

 

[S.A.M.]

You're the expert on the religion. You tell me. I am a mere atheist who is curious and would like a question answered.

Seriously, I am curious. The Quran remains silent on the course of punishment for apostasy, but hadiths support the death penalty...

The Hadiths support the death penalty for political reasons not religious ones. As I have already posted and linked to in this thread. In fact, the Hadiths that support the death penalty make it very clear that it is not for religious reasons but because apostates have a destabilising influence on society. The last killing that anyone has dug up is from 1978 and says nothing about the circumstances of the persons arrest. There are people like Wafa Sultan who openly argue on television with imams. Why are they alive?

 

[phlogistician]

No come back Sam? Or do you have to rest and summon some resolve before posting your tired old crap again?

 

[S.A.M.]

I have never said that phrase. Sam has tried putting those words in others mouths though!

I merely stated that in three out of the four people she mentioned, Catholicism was a common factor, and the fourth, Mao, killed people though malpractice, and causing famine.

You can't logically group people by what they are not. Sam is being totally dishonest here.

Thats what atheists are.

Not believers.

 

[phlogistician]

Thats what atheists are.

Not believers.

And?

Do you want to make some bullshit assertions about non-stamp collectors too?

No, you walking farce, you won't. You seem to think that religion is sooooo special that not being religious is somehow special too.

That's just your narrow mind.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm not the one arguing specialised daffynitions of people based on what they are not.

 

[Mr.Spock]

kill all Apostates. :jason:

 

[phlogistician]

I'm not the one arguing specialised daffynitions of people based on what they are not.

You are exactly doing that. You equate genocidal maniacism with atheism.

That's attributing something to a group based on what they are NOT.

Damn, you're stupid.

 

[S.A.M.]

Actually, I'm describing what they are; you are the one going for "connections"

Stalin = Mao= Pol Pot = Mussolini = Kim Jung = atheist = genocidal maniac

Now if you are saying atheism != genocidal maniac, I agree with you. Same as theism != genocidal maniac. Those are individual instances.

See, I can be nice.

 

[(Q)]

Actually, I'm describing what they are; you are the one going for "connections"

Stalin = Mao= Pol Pot = Mussolini = Kim Jung = atheist = genocidal maniac

Now if you are saying atheism != genocidal maniac, I agree with you. Same as theism != genocidal maniac. Those are individual instances.

See, I can be nice.

So, since I cannot accept Sam's claims that her god split the moon in half and then 'spackled' it back together, it somehow equates me to a genocidal maniac, while all I'm doing is laughing hysterically at Sam's utter foolishness.

One of Sam's brethren from Pakistan however, who believes the moon was split in half and views my 'disbelief' in this event as blasphemous, decides to report me to the authorities who promptly want to execute me, as that is what is specified in their Penal Code for blasphemy of Islam.

Yes Sam, atheism surely does equate to genocidal maniacs.

 

[S.A.M.]

So, since I cannot accept Sam's claims that her god split the moon in half and then 'spackled' it back together, it somehow equates me to a genocidal maniac, while all I'm doing is laughing hysterically at Sam's utter foolishness.

One of Sam's brethren from Pakistan however, who believes the moon was split in half and views my 'disbelief' in this event as blasphemous, decides to report me to the authorities who promptly want to execute me, as that is what is specified in their Penal Code for blasphemy of Islam.

Yes Sam, atheism surely does equate to genocidal maniacs.

Is that a hypothetical scenario or are you quoting from experience? Because 100 million REALLY died under those men, not just in abstract. Do you consider their deaths as irrelevant because atheists caused them?

 

[(Q)]

Do you consider their deaths as irrelevant because atheists caused them?

I consider your fabrications and intellectual dishonesty irrelevant.