Death to Apostates (?)

[KennyJC]

It was a no, of course. I've said that ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Of course, like I proved in the thread "who kills the most atheists", atheists on this forum are given to severe delusions of paranoia.

Did Sam just disagree with parts of Islam? Wow, that's the first time I ever saw that.

 

[S.A.M.]

I didn't say he wasn't a 'real atheist' at all, that's a straw man argument Sam, but then you are incapable of honest debate.

I said Stalin was brought up in a realigious environment, and that was probably what helped warp him. Pay attention!

What about Mao, Mussolini, Pol Pot? Why are all atheist leaders like that?

 

[phlogistician]

What about Mao, Mussolini, Pol Pot? Why are all atheist leaders like that?

That's a wide swing. I notice they are all political leaders, of extremes, and that actually Mussolini was a Catholic, and Stalin was raised a Catholic. Pol Pot attended a Catholic School too, .... yes Sam you have succeeded in proving that religion played a hand in most of the atrocities committed by these people!

Of course Mao was an atheist, but is still revered as a great leader in China. The deaths he caused were due to mismanagement causing starvation, largely, just like Catholic pride made the Irish Potato famine a tragedy.

So that one seems to be applicable to both atheist and religious leaders, not proving your point either way.

You FAILED Sam.

What angle you going to ply next?

 

[S.A.M.]

That's a wide swing. I notice they are all political leaders, of extremes, and that actually Mussolini was a Catholic, and Stalin was raised a Catholic. Pol Pot attended a Catholic School too, .... yes Sam you have succeeded in proving that religion played a hand in most of the atrocities committed by these people!

Especially once they turn atheist, eh? Then they break world records.

 

[iceaura]

What do you think of the fact that most of the top ten mass murderers in the world are atheist?

First, I'd question your mindreading.

Second, I'd question your list: Stalin and maybe Mao and maybe Pol Pot - depending on how you are counting - still only makes three.

Third, I point out that ascribing all the crimes of a State to its nominal head, rather than the large body of (in Stalin's case, for example) theistic people who did the actual murdering, is a bit simpleminded. We recall the complaint of a theistic mass murdering Czar of Russia who preceded Stalin: "I never ruled Russia. Ten thousand clerks ruled Russia". And we recall the reverence - the worship, actually - accorded to such people as Stalin and Mao.

Fourth, we note a confounding circumstance: the existence of atheistic intellectual influence in a culture is positively correlated with technological capability. And this capability is more strongly correlated with deeds requiring such capability than any personal religious beliefs of nominal Leaders.

And fifth, we note that the some of the parallels in our few atheistic mass murderers' upbringings are not just theistic, but specifically involve one sect of one theism - the Jesuit sect of Catholic Christianity.

 

[phlogistician]

Especially once they turn atheist, eh? Then they break world records.

Turn atheist? I think you need to read up on Mussolini.

Anyway, your point is fractured, and doesn't hold water. Stop banging on about it, it makes you look desperate that you can't come up with something better.

 

[S.A.M.]

Turn atheist? I think you need to read up on Mussolini.

I did. Like Stalin, he proclaimed himself as an atheist and was very anti-clerical.

Anyway, your point is fractured, and doesn't hold water. Stop banging on about it, it makes you look desperate that you can't come up with something better.

I think my point is made. Atheism leads to the formation of dangerous genocidal maniacs.

 

[Enmos]

I think my point is made. Atheism leads to the formation of dangerous genocidal maniacs.

Do you actually belief that, or are you just arguing ?

 

[phlogistician]

I did. Like Stalin, he proclaimed himself as an atheist and was very anti-clerical.

"Converted to Roman Catholicism in 1927, irreligious in earlier life."

Sorry, he was a Catholic.

I think my point is made. Atheism leads to the formation of dangerous genocidal maniacs.

How do you figure that, when three of your four favourite examples had Catholic upbringings, and the only lifetime atheist you can drum up caused death by bad management.

Pathetic Sam, you need a new tune. Your assertion has been torn to shreds.

 

[S.A.M.]

So he was an atheist to begin with. Bang goes your thesis on Stalin. Pick a side.

 

[Kadark]

I said Stalin was brought up in a realigious environment, and that was probably what helped warp him. Pay attention!

You're being very misleading. Stalin's mother, who was, admittedly, a very religious woman, had hoped that Stalin would eventually become a priest. Stalin attended the elementary school in Gori, and won a scholarship which entitled him to attend the Tiflis Theological Seminary. The problem is, Stalin was never interested in his religious schooling, and he was constantly getting into trouble with the seminary authorities. Midway through his studies, Stalin was expelled, and quickly joined a group of young revolutionaries. Yes, Stalin's mother did force him to attend a theological seminary, but his actions prove that he was never the slightest bit interested. The same goes for the other atheists in question: sure, perhaps as children, their parents did force them to attend these religious schools, but they were never true believers, or even mildly interested. They disbanded when the opportunity arose, and spent the rest of their lives severely persecuting religious groups. To even imply that they weren't proper atheists due to a religious upbringing is silly.


Kadark

 

[(Q)]

So he was an atheist to begin with. Bang goes your thesis on Stalin. Pick a side.

Stalin was also an Abeetpicklist and slaughtered anyone and everyone who came in contact with pickled beets.

:deal:

 

[S.A.M.]

Stalin was also an Abeetpicklist and slaughtered anyone and everyone who came in contact with pickled beets.

:deal:

You know what they say, those who don't believe in God, believe in anything.

 

[(Q)]

I said: "Stalin was also an Abeetpicklist and slaughtered anyone and everyone who came in contact with pickled beets."

Then, you said:

"You know what they say, those who don't believe in God, believe in anything."

Funny how, when I make examples of the silly things you say AND what you openly say yourself, both make you look the fool.

 

[Sock puppet path]

Back on topic we can put this ugly dog to bed.

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

The four major Sunni and the one major Shia Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate - some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. Whether Sharia laws governing apostasy are derived from the hadith traditions alone or also from the Qu'ran is disputed. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi'i interpreted the Qu'ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]

A minority of medieval Islamic jurists, such as Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi,[4] Maliki jurist Ibn al-Walid al-Baji, and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah,[5] and some contemporary Islamic jurists, such as Shafi`i Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[6][7] and Shi'a Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[8] argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[9][10][11][12]

Some prominent contemporary examples of death sentences or threated issued for apostasy include Salman Rushdie, who was condemned to death in 1989 by Ayatollah Khomeini, (ruler of Iran at the time) for his book The Satanic Verses; and Abdul Rahman, an Afghan convert to Christianity who was arrested and jailed on the charge of rejecting Islam" in 2006 but later released as mentally incompetent.[13]

wikilinky

Now you know why only a single muslim voted that apostates should not be killed. I bet more will follow this post for appearances sake

 

[S.A.M.]

Name the last apostate killed by a sharia court.

 

[Enmos]

Name the last apostate killed by an atheist.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sure. Any theist killed by an atheist, since they all believe that people are born atheist

 

[iceaura]

I did. Like Stalin, he proclaimed himself as an atheist and was very anti-clerical.

Mussollini was Roman Catholic, converted not from atheism but from "irreligious" bent - and not much of a mass murderer, probably not in the top ten historically.

The mass murders committed by the Italian fascists, such as they were, were committed mostly by Catholics. To the extent atheism was involved, it was as victim, not perpetrator.

As far as mass murder committed by atheists under proclaimed atheistic leadership, I wonder about including Mao - he seemed to have piled up the deaths not by murder but by negligence, and including him would require other high rates of death from governmental misdeed to be included; such as India's famines, which would definitely put some Indian/British ruler in the top ten.

You do regard the theistic beliefs of the people doing the actual mass murdering as of some interest, no ? It saves on the mindreading of the unusual and complex psychologies of Leaders.

We are left with the assertion that most of the top ten Leaders of mass murder were atheist. So far, we have two likely (Stalin and Pol Pot) and one doubtful but possible (Mao). Confounding even this we have the capability factor, and the theistic beliefs of the actual murderers involved. So the general assertion is pretty much shot.

And the whole exercise seems pointless, unless the purpose is to warn against giving power over theists to the products of Jesuit or Catholic monk schooling. The pattern there is kind of disturbing.

Sure. Any theist killed by an atheist, since they all believe that people are born atheist

How does being born athest make a theist an apostate ? Or are you confusing religion and theism for the umpteenth time ?

 

[Enmos]

Sure. Any theist killed by an atheist, since they all believe that people are born atheist

No, they have to be killed because they are no longer atheist.
Name one.