Critical Thinking

[superluminal]

ellion:

...and is critical analysis a necessary cognitive process in identifying reality?

Ah Ha. Now we're getting down to it. I say, yes. It's the only way that yields any useful information about the universe, beyond simple observation.

Examine the success of humanity in comprehending the world around them before the advent of the scientific method, which is just the formalization of critical thinking applied to nature (everything, that is).

 

[ellion]

It's the only way that yields any useful information about the universe, beyond simple observation.

you only have two ways of gaining useful information? critical thinking and simple observation are your only mode of cognition and you want to judge my discriminative ability?

 

[superluminal]

ellion,

You're big on the rhetorical questions. How about stating what you actually think so we can discuss it?

 

[ellion]

i think a lot of things, what do you really need from me?

 

[mis-t-highs]

And here's some critical thinking SL...

God doesn't want for you to take my word for anything. He doesn't want the proof to be shared as you are suggesting. He wants to know you....to interact with you...to have a relationship with you...and for you to know Him. He doesn't want you to just read His autobiography, or to simply look at a picture of Him, or to hear accounts of Him. He wants you to know Him. And it has to be your choice. That's logical.

how so, you asking any sane man to have a halucination of a god image, and then to talk to it.
please think about what you are saying. fantasys are subjective to the individual. why would you wish lunacy on anybody. if you happy in your madness thats ok, by why do you want to take other people down with you.

 

[mis-t-highs]

anything that effects the senses can be critcal decerned. anything that does not effect the senses can not. as I said earlier it only take one instants of a thing, therefore it can then be critically discerned, if one instant of it exists. not otherwise. the thought of a thing may exist in your mind, but that does not make the thing exist, unless it can effect your objective senses. Ie if it's the thought of your mother, a rock, a tree, food, these things exist in reality, but if the thought is of a dragon, a pink unicorn, santa, the easter bunnies, these are all non-existent, only in fantasy.

 

[superluminal]

ellion:

i think a lot of things, what do you really need from me?

Huh? Nothing. :bugeye:

 

[Horseman42]

I just dont see how a person can go wrong by living his life by the bible. Its a very easy life to live.

Have you actually read the bible? It's very easy to go wrong from following it.

For example do you think it's ok to stone homosexuals and kill witches? Or how about something from the new testament. Do you believe you can drink poison and it actually not harm you?

Sorry to divert the thread a bit here.

 

[Lori_7]

Sorry Lori, but that's completely emotional, not logical in the least. How do you know what he wants for me in particular? And no one is asking you to testify for the lord.

You keep avoiding the question of the objective reality of god.

Here it is again: Lori, is god real and does he affect the workings of the universe?

How is that emotional? It involves something other than the five senses entirely. The experience will make you emotional.

You know my answer to this question, we've already talked about this. Of course God is real, and for all I know He is the universe. He at least designed the workings of the universe. We are witness to the laws that He's created. We exist under them. I don't claim to understand what God is exactly. I only know what I have experienced of Him. I know who He is to me.

 

[superluminal]

Lori,

1) Of course God is real

2) I only know what I have experienced of Him

I think we're talking about two things. Your first statement tempts anyone with an inquisitive mind to say "Ok, prove it" which is what this whole mess is about. And if you can't understand the desire to have something concrete to work with then you are certainly going to have difficulty on a science forum.

Your second statement indicates a subjective experience for you alone (which you've been saying all along, I know). That's fine, but useless for the rest of us. Right?

The only point of all of this for me is trying to understand the mentality which says "I only know what I have experienced of Him" and follows that with "Of course God is real" (nevermind the order...)

Which begs the simple question "How do you know?" A childs question. Very simple. What will you tell your future children when they ask?

 

[ellion]

i think a lot of things, what do you really need from me?

Huh? Nothing.

sorry, what i meant was if you want the right information ask the right questions. saying tell me what you think is vague and ill considered. every response i make is what i think about the posts i respond to. if you want certain thought processes ask the questions that take you closer to those processes.

 

[superluminal]

ellion,

Umm...Ok.

you only have two ways of gaining useful information?

First define useful. Remember, I'm talking about objective information. Trees, rocks, etc. Not subjective feelings about pretty clouds or interpersonal relationships.

critical thinking and simple observation are your only mode of cognition...

What do you consider your modes of cognition?

 

[Lori_7]

Lori,

1) Of course God is real

2) I only know what I have experienced of Him

I think we're talking about two things. Your first statement tempts anyone with an inquisitive mind to say "Ok, prove it" which is what this whole mess is about.

Ok, remain inquisitive, but understand that you are to look to God for proof, not me or any other human. I can give you evidence, and I have. You just can't see it because you're out there in cyber-space. You can always attribute the evidence to something else, or blame a thousand coincedences. There will be more evidence of my miracle. Then you can call it a conspiracy. Or not...

And if you can't understand the desire to have something concrete to work with then you are certainly going to have difficulty on a science forum.

You know, I do understand actually. There have been times, even knowing God, that I have begged for something concrete, and simple. Bitching about how everything has to be so "veiled". "Why can't you send an angel? Why can't you slide down here on a lightning bolt and tell me how it is? Why can't you just leave me a list or something? Tell me what the hell is going on!" Yea, I've been there. He told me that's not how He operates...but that's more the "other side's" style. He wants to make sure we know the difference.

And I shouldn't have difficulty in the religion forum should I? What I testify to, and talk about can be confirmed in scripture.

Your second statement indicates a subjective experience for you alone (which you've been saying all along, I know). That's fine, but useless for the rest of us. Right?

It might not be if you were a little more open-minded.

The only point of all of this for me is trying to understand the mentality which says "I only know what I have experienced of Him" and follows that with "Of course God is real" (nevermind the order...)

Which begs the simple question "How do you know?" A childs question. Very simple. What will you tell your future children when they ask?

I know God. I've had conversations with Him. He's taught me many things. He's changed my life. He's saved my life. He's answered my prayers. He's healed me of addictions. He's written poetry through me for crying out loud. He's turned my life absolutely upside down. He's found me a man. He's given me purpose, and a life worth living...He's fulfilled me in every way I can possibly think of. And I would tell my child that they could know Him too if they want to, and that it's completely up to them.

 

[superluminal]

Okey Dokey.

 

[§outh§tar]

Lori_7,

Are you willing to be more "open-minded" to the idea of a Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Mmmm... spaghetti...

 

[ellion]

ellion,

Umm...Ok.



First define useful.

something useful has a purpose that enhances the purpose of the user/s

Remember, I'm talking about objective information. Trees, rocks, etc. Not subjective feelings about pretty clouds or interpersonal relationships.

are subjective feelings of no value then? what about thoughts, being subjective do they have value?

are the only things that have any value to you objects? is it a tree, a rock or a golden calf that you seek to understand?

What do you consider your modes of cognition?

direct percpetion is the predominant mode of cognition that which is perceived by the senses.
memory and remebering have a dominant role also, previous experiences being regurgitated into the present to be re-experienced as subjective perceptions. imagination or creativity, the propagation of new patterns of experience. intuition the admittance of information that has been processed preconsciously.
curiosity (a feeling), of being menatlly stimualted and attracted to an object (objective) or expereince (subjective).
inquiry, mental our verbal questioning often though not exclusively motivated by curiosity.
those that come under the umbrella of analysis(critical thinking), discrimantion, reasoning.
those that come under the umbrella of contemplation, reflection, meditaion. concentration and focus of attention.

 

[mis-t-highs]

something useful has a purpose that enhances the purpose of the user/s

are you refering to a solid object or a thought, if a thought then it can only be user, not users, unless of course you can mind meld. when a thought is shared, it is subjective until some evidence is produced and verified.

are subjective feelings of no value then? what about thoughts, being subjective do they have value?

now dont be foolish, we need both, because thoughts have value to the individual, that does not make individual thoughts real to all.

direct perception is the predominant mode of cognition that which is perceived by the senses.
memory and remembering have a dominant role also, previous experiences being regurgitated into the present to be re-experienced as subjective perceptions.

imagination, or creativity, the propagation of new patterns of experience.

imagination ?, creativity yes Having the ability or power to create, does gain experience, I surpose in a extremely obscure way you do gain experience from you imaginings, IE when you paint a picture or write a book, especially if you've never dont them before. other than the obscure, I cant see how you could propagate new experiences, new fantasies yes.

intuition the admittance of information that has been processed preconsciously.

intuition sensing without the use of rational processes, is fantasy, you use the information you've gained for your life experiences to discern a thing, there is no supernatural event occuring, it's just a fanciful way to say, I thought that was going to happen.

curiosity (a feeling), of being mentally stimulated and attracted to an object (objective) or expereince (subjective).

no, curiosity is A desire to know or learn. to know our world, but also used if we think somethings odd, there nothing odd about curiosity.

inquiry, mental our verbal questioning often though not exclusively motivated by curiosity.
those that come under the umbrella of analysis(critical thinking), discrimination, reasoning.
those that come under the umbrella of contemplation, reflection, meditation. concentration and focus of attention.

but they are all used in critical reasoning, IE if your given something to ponder, you will use all the means at your disposal, to critically discern whether is is a fact or not.

 

[ellion]

something useful has a purpose that enhances the purpose of the user/s

are you refering to a solid object or a thought,

no. not referring to a "solid" object or a thought or aything else for that matter, i was defining "useful" for superluminal.
did you notice i put a / between
"user" and "s", like this; user/s? any idea why i may have used such an odd symbol in punctauting a word?

if a thought then it can only be user, not users, unless of course you can mind meld.

do you mind meld?

when a thought is shared,

what do you mean by "when a thought is shared" are you referring to a telepathic sharing?

it is subjective

what is subjective the sharing or the thought?

until some evidence is produced and verified.

how do you produce evidence of subjective phenomena?

now dont be foolish,

what did you see as being foolish?

we need both,

"we" is that you and superluminal? has he permited you to speak on his behalf? it was superluminal that i asked the question of.

because thoughts have value to the individual, that does not make individual thoughts real to all.

the same is applicable to perception and to feelings, etc.

imagination ?, creativity yes Having the ability or power to create, does gain experience, I surpose in a extremely obscure way you do gain experience from you imaginings,

do you even know what we are talking about?

other than the obscure, I cant see how you could propagate new experiences, new fantasies yes.

is a fantasy an expereince? is a dream a fantasy? i dont ask these questions to find your answers, i dont need your answers but i ask that you may question your self and realise your own delusions.

intuition sensing without the use of rational processes, is fantasy,

you seem to identify a lot of fantasy. what is that about?

you use the information you've gained for your life experiences to discern a thing,

sorry! what do i do? i use the information gained for my life expereinces to discern a thing? what has this to do with intuition? intuition is a pre-conscious faculty.

there is no supernatural event occuring,

there is nothing supernatural about intutition i agree.

it's just a fanciful way to say, I thought that was going to happen.

are you getting mixed up with precogntion?

curiosity (a feeling), of being mentally stimulated and attracted to an object (objective) or expereince (subjective).

no, curiosity is A desire to know or learn. to know our world, but also used if we think somethings odd, there nothing odd about curiosity.

desire is a feeling, which is what i said about curiosity. okay maybe it is not a cognitive process as such (btw, cognitive process is what we where talking about) but there is a mental stimulation and a variety of mental activity when aroused.

but they are all used in critical reasoning, IE if your given something to ponder, you will use all the means at your disposal, to critically discern whether is is a fact or not.

yes you will, and exactly the point i was making, you will use all tools at you disposal to achieve the best results.

i'm still wondering why you identify with fantasy so much!

 

[Hostile]

Have you actually read the bible? It's very easy to go wrong from following it.

For example do you think it's ok to stone homosexuals and kill witches? Or how about something from the new testament. Do you believe you can drink poison and it actually not harm you?

Sorry to divert the thread a bit here.

There are alot of things in history that happened that were brutal and unexplainable. I have been reading the bible since I was a child. You cant just read the bible and put it down and say you are finished and understood all of its contents. Imformation is given to you when you are ready.