Credit where credit is due

[James R]

You may have heard that in Australia two miners have recently been rescued after being trapped 1 km underground for two weeks. Three miners were caught in the collapse of a tunnel. Two survived to be rescued; the other was killed in the collapse.

When the miners walked out of the mine a couple of days ago, there was much talk (and headlines) of a "miracle". People gathered in churches and thanked God that their prayers had been answered and the miners rescued.

But what about the "miracle" of the miner who was killed? If you're going to say that the rescue happened because of God, then surely God must have intended that the third miner would die, too. Was the third miner being punished by God, by this "miracle" of a rock fall?

Why is God always thanked when something goes right, but never blamed when things go wrong? If the rescue of two miners was a miracle, then let's also give God the credit for killing the third miner.

What do you think?

 

[cato]

I agree. just once I would like to hear somebody say "man, jesus really dropped the ball on that one."

sadly it is the nature of modern religions to only attribute positive things to it.

it is an evolution of ideas. the religions that did blame gods (many ancient religious did so) had a lower survival value. the fittest religious prevail. unfortunately, fit does not mean they are good, blood sucking leaches have survived a long time =/

 

[one_raven]

Hinduism has gods with the same types of mischeveious, even evil, aspects as those old "dead" religions.
You very well could hear a Hindu blame a god for misfortune.

 

[Jenyar]

A quick thought - maybe it has to do with the odds that anybody would survive. As far as everybody knew and expected, the miners all shared the same fate, in which survival was far less than likely. The two who survived therefore "escaped" that fate, and it is seen as reasonable cause to be particularly thankful.

It's easy to see the opposite sentiment in action as well: a few people go on a vacation in the East, or go off to spend a normal day at work in New York, and an unexpected disaster cuts their lives short. The expectance is different, so the "exception" sways in the other direction: God must be to blame.

It depends on who you think God is, and what role death plays in this world. If you believe God is only active when there is death or disaster, you will look for Him in every death and disaster; if you believe God gives life in the first place, as an exception to the general state of death that prevails in the immediate universe, you will find Him in every instance where life prevails.

There's nothing extraordinary about thanking God for life if one values life, and think of death as an inevitable reality everyone must face sooner or later. No doubt the sense of loss will be expressed at the deceased's funeral - it might not make the front pages, but that doesn't mean it's neglected by the people involved.

When people see life as the natural state of things - the expected outcome - and death as the exception, the blame game starts. Then there's (ultimately) nothing to be thankful for, and someone somewhere did something wrong.

 

[one_raven]

The devout believer loses his wife and blames God for taking her even though he was a "Good Christian" and he becomes an atheist.
The priest witnesses a child suffering unbearable pain and turns his back on the cloth.
A woman loses her child and curses God for not taking her instead.

It is almost trite how many time God is blamed for death in movies, books and other forms of pop culture.
I have known people in real life who became atheists, or at least left their faith, after experiencing great loss.
It happens all the time.
It just doesn't tend to get on the front page with a hackneyed expression thanking God.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

You may have heard that in Australia two miners have recently been rescued after being trapped 1 km underground for two weeks. Three miners were caught in the collapse of a tunnel. Two survived to be rescued; the other was killed in the collapse.

When the miners walked out of the mine a couple of days ago, there was much talk (and headlines) of a "miracle". People gathered in churches and thanked God that their prayers had been answered and the miners rescued.

But what about the "miracle" of the miner who was killed? If you're going to say that the rescue happened because of God, then surely God must have intended that the third miner would die, too. Was the third miner being punished by God, by this "miracle" of a rock fall?

Why is God always thanked when something goes right, but never blamed when things go wrong? If the rescue of two miners was a miracle, then let's also give God the credit for killing the third miner.

What do you think?

'NEVER BLAMED? James R? Well that is 100% incorrect statement now isn't it?

Firstly, God is blamed frequently when things go wrong, especially by atheists interestingly, the question is always being asked by atheists, the above is a good example I wouldn't ask why pink unicaorns can only fly forwards instead of backwards? I don't believe pink unicorns exist so cannot argue about the 'nature' of that unicorn. I know the simple logic of this point will be lost on the great mass minds of sci forums as every religious thread is testiony to the fact this simple point cannot be grasped. Moving on.......

Previous believers in god will reject god when things go wrong that they didn't anticipate, this is common.

So why is God not blamed when things go wrong, well he is. End of... no doubt the family of the dead man aren't raving about the miracle the way everyone else is.

However, generally people who believe in god believe that eveything has its purpose. There is the belief that those that die young have fulfilled their purpose on this plane of existance, their journey (or whatever) is complete and are thus being moved onto something else. It's not neccessarily a 'bad' thing as you say.

Meanwhile blaming God for different things depends on what you presume to know about God. Do you presume he was directly responsible for the naturally occurring and NOT logic defying tunnel collapse and the death of the man, or do you consider this was as stated a naturally occurring event. It may be the case that the mens survival was unexpected and unnatural in that it defied logic hence was deemed a miracle. A tunnel collapsing is not a 'miracle', the men being found alive after 2 days would not have been considered a miracle either. It is the fact they were found alive after two weeks that makes it appear like a miracle and hence Gods intervention is being credited for this 'miracle'.

Again incase anyone misses this simple point, a very simple analogy follows:

When I make a cake, if my oven conks out and the cake is ruined, it is NOT directly my fault. I was not responsible for my oven conking out. But if the cake rises despite the oven not working, well then...something odd is happenning there that may or may not be attribuable to me. Maybe this is why when things go unexpectabdly (against all the odds) well, then God is thanked, but not balmed for all the things that go 'naturally' wrong.

Somethings are outside of our control but naturally occurring, somethings are outside our control but NOT naturally occurring. I think this is what makes the difference as to where blame is being laid.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

The devout believer loses his wife and blames God for taking her even though he was a "Good Christian" and he becomes an atheist.
The priest witnesses a child suffering unbearable pain and turns his back on the cloth.
A woman loses her child and curses God for not taking her instead.

It is almost trite how many time God is blamed for death in movies, books and other forms of pop culture.
I have known people in real life who became atheists, or at least left their faith, after experiencing great loss.
It happens all the time.
It just doesn't tend to get on the front page with a hackneyed expression thanking God.

well said

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

A quick thought - maybe it has to do with the odds that anybody would survive. As far as everybody knew and expected, the miners all shared the same fate, in which survival was far less than likely. The two who survived therefore "escaped" that fate, and it is seen as reasonable cause to be particularly thankful.

It's easy to see the opposite sentiment in action as well: a few people go on a vacation in the East, or go off to spend a normal day at work in New York, and an unexpected disaster cuts their lives short. The expectance is different, so the "exception" sways in the other direction: God must be to blame.

It depends on who you think God is, and what role death plays in this world. If you believe God is only active when there is death or disaster, you will look for Him in every death and disaster; if you believe God gives life in the first place, as an exception to the general state of death that prevails in the immediate universe, you will find Him in every instance where life prevails.

There's nothing extraordinary about thanking God for life if one values life, and think of death as an inevitable reality everyone must face sooner or later. No doubt the sense of loss will be expressed at the deceased's funeral - it might not make the front pages, but that doesn't mean it's neglected by the people involved.

When people see life as the natural state of things - the expected outcome - and death as the exception, the blame game starts. Then there's (ultimately) nothing to be thankful for, and someone somewhere did something wrong.

again well said

 

[KennyJC]

If you remember the recent mining disaster in the US a few months back...When they received word that they had been saved they openly praised God for the cameras. When the real news came out that they had all died they were saying stuff like "I don't even know if I believe in Jesus no more..."

Fair enough it was a terrible thing, but their religion was forefront to that of their relatives well-being.

Personal God's have no place in reality as those families found out that day.

 

[Sarkus]

Firstly, God is blamed frequently when things go wrong, especially by atheists interestingly

Atheists do NOT "blame God" - as they do not have a belief that God exists.

The atheists who raise this point are merely trying to point out (to those who do) the apparent inconsistency between when the Theist blames God and when they thank God.

It is laughable to state that the atheist seems to blame God!

I wouldn't ask why pink unicaorns can only fly forwards instead of backwards? I don't believe pink unicorns exist so cannot argue about the 'nature' of that unicorn.

By not asking the questions you will never learn what beliefs others have, nor the nature of those beliefs, nor how they explain the apparent inconsistencies in their beliefs. You will therefore be forever in the dark about what other people believe.
Only by asking can we learn - not to believe in - but to understand what it is that others might believe in.

I know the simple logic of this point will be lost on the great mass minds of sci forums as every religious thread is testiony to the fact this simple point cannot be grasped.

Unwarranted arrogance.

Previous believers in god will reject god when things go wrong that they didn't anticipate, this is common.

Rejecting God is not the same as being atheist, if that is your assumption (which I have taken it to be given your responses to other posts).

Meanwhile blaming God for different things depends on what you presume to know about God. Do you presume he was directly responsible for the naturally occurring and NOT logic defying tunnel collapse and the death of the man, or do you consider this was as stated a naturally occurring event. It may be the case that the mens survival was unexpected and unnatural in that it defied logic hence was deemed a miracle.

If you think people surviving "defied logic" then you have no grasp of what logic is!
If something defies logic then that indeed would be a miracle.
But nothing ever has.

When I make a cake, if my oven conks out and the cake is ruined, it is NOT directly my fault. I was not responsible for my oven conking out. But if the cake rises despite the oven not working, well then...something odd is happenning there that may or may not be attribuable to me. Maybe this is why when things go unexpectabdly (against all the odds) well, then God is thanked, but not balmed for all the things that go 'naturally' wrong.

Do you put "spices" in that cake of yours???

This is nothing like the case of the miners.

For a cake to rise and cook despite the presence of heat or an input of energy defies our understanding of physics (and cooking!!).

It is not merely a matter of odds that the cake might rise - but a matter of defying the laws of the Universe. THIS would be a miracle.

 

[one_raven]

If something defies logic then that indeed would be a miracle.
But nothing ever has.

Is that a fact?
It must be nice to be so cock sure of something that seems pretty much impossible to verify.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

For a cake to rise and cook despite the presence of heat or an input of energy defies our understanding of physics (and cooking!!).

It is not merely a matter of odds that the cake might rise - but a matter of defying the laws of the Universe. THIS would be a miracle.

I have seen much more amazing things than this, so I guess you are just full of shit then are you not.

 

[KennyJC]

Theoryofrelativity: Do you ever say anything constructive? Or anything that makes sense for that matter?

Define "defying logic"? To me this means that the impossible happens. Name one thing that is literally impossible that happens.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Theoryofrelativity: Do you ever say anything constructive? Or anything that makes sense for that matter?

Define "defying logic"? To me this means that the impossible happens. Name one thing that is literally impossible that happens.

I'm not interested in answering your stupid questions Kenny, demonstrate an intelligence greater than that of a banana and I'll consider your replies to my posts worthy.

This is an unitelligent thread.........'God is NEVER blamed when things go wrong', this has already been shown to be incorrect, end of thread.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

'NEVER BLAMED? James R? Well that is 100% incorrect statement now isn't it?

Firstly, God is blamed frequently when things go wrong, especially by atheists interestingly, the question is always being asked by atheists, the above is a good example :

Nonsense. God doesn't exist. I can't blame him and i never do.

 

[Sarkus]

Your entire post is Brainless crap, plenty of things go on daily, every second of every day that defy logic, you need to get off your ass and away from your pc and start experiencing the real world. This is clearly the reason for your extremely limited perspective on the world. IE you have NO experience of it! Brainwashed, ignorant fool.

I reiterate what KennyJC said / asks: Define "Defy Logic".

Then give an example of something that defies logic.


Amazing things DO happen every day - but these are things that abide by the laws of probability.

A rare occurrence is not an ILLOGICAL occurrence.

The chance of winning the UK Lottery is something like 14 million to 1 - yet people win it.
"Wow - MIRACLE" - "DEFIES LOGIC" I hear you scream.

Probability is logical.

If there is a 1 in a billion chance of something happen, it is logical that it COULD happen.



So - please give an example of something that defies logic.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

The chance of winning the UK Lottery is something like 14 million to 1 - yet people win it.
"Wow - MIRACLE" - "DEFIES LOGIC" I hear you scream.

.

This is a very poor example, you should be looking at the odds of someone winning and no one winning.

The odds of someone NOT winning it are higher.
SOMEONE should win the lottery in pretty much every draw. So whats illogical about that?

I can think of many illogical examples but as with all your ilk, you'll say fantasy, bullshit, lies, whatever other crap you come out with when something defies your logic. So pointless excercise, go play with someone else. I am not humouring you.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Nonsense. God doesn't exist.[/COLOR] I can't blame him and i never do.

prove it.

oh yes, I forgot no one can, just as no one can prove he does......hmmmmmmmmmm,

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I never blamed god. I know i never have. I know I never believed in god. That's good enough for me to prove the statement that I do not blame god when things go wrong.

I do blame other people, myself, the government, the weather, my wife, cockroaches, alcohol, bureacracy etc. But those are all rather un-supernatural items.

 

[Confutatis]

Believing in God doesn't make one an authority on the subject. Most people, theists and atheists alike, have a poor understanding of what the concept of "God" really entails. I would agree with the atheist that most things people say about God are nonsense, with the only difference that I wouldn't make an exception for atheists.

That said, I don't think the atheist really understands the mind of the theist. He certainly doesn't understand why the theist thanks God. The essential problem is that the theist understands that nothing good can happen if there is no God. The atheist puts himself in a contradictory position when he thinks something is good but fails to see that his philosophy implies good does not exist. (or evil, for that matter)

So when the theist says, "thank you God for saving that person", he's really saying "thank you God for making the survival of that person be a good thing".

Somewhat simple when you think about it.