Crater Research
- Thread starter craterchains (Norval
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Is it my fault that some cant see the significance of the SETI pattern in CS crater chains? NO
Is it my fault that some are so naive and ignorant that they cant make the relationship between CS types of crater chains and weapons? NO
Is it my fault that some are unable to envision in their minds the ridiculous idea of a comet breaking up and being able to form these CS style chains? NO
It really is very simple principles of motion and trajectories.
Try throwing gravel at some mud banks,, let me know when you think I am right,, now go play in the mud.
FOCL
Is it my fault that some are so naive and ignorant that they cant make the relationship between CS types of crater chains and weapons? NO
Is it my fault that some are unable to envision in their minds the ridiculous idea of a comet breaking up and being able to form these CS style chains? NO
It really is very simple principles of motion and trajectories.
Try throwing gravel at some mud banks,, let me know when you think I am right,, now go play in the mud.
FOCL
lol. I tell ya Norval, it's a real pleasure to watch a master debater at work. You're so abrasive I wouldn't believe you if you told me water is wet.
I mean, you see that don't you? You address none of the opposing points, you make claims with nothing backing them and you abuse and scream at everyone that responds. Why do you even look for input when you obviously don't want any?
I mean, you see that don't you? You address none of the opposing points, you make claims with nothing backing them and you abuse and scream at everyone that responds. Why do you even look for input when you obviously don't want any?
Hi yah tit. (buffy’s what ever?)
Ever hear of CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing? Thought not. Hey don’t get me wrong here, but you all ready have. I am just looking at the most incredible chain of explosions that I have ever seen. That being said from some years experience with explosive devices, friends that are licensed explosives experts, and discussions with bomb damage experts from the military. After about 45 years of cognitive experience to draw from it is easy for me to see these obvious similarities to war. And your knowledge base?
Ever hear of CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing? Thought not. Hey don’t get me wrong here, but you all ready have. I am just looking at the most incredible chain of explosions that I have ever seen. That being said from some years experience with explosive devices, friends that are licensed explosives experts, and discussions with bomb damage experts from the military. After about 45 years of cognitive experience to draw from it is easy for me to see these obvious similarities to war. And your knowledge base?
Crater chains are created via a natural process that involves the break up of comets as they approach or pass by a large body. Crater chains can be just a few hundred meters to thousands of km in length. Many chains can wrap around a planet several times with the individual impact craters seemingly having no relation to each other due to the distance between each crater.
Comets/asteroids can be fractured by past impacts and are only held together by there own very weak gravity. As they pass close to a large body, such as a moon or planet, the object is gently pulled apart by gravity. The object breaking apart will separate in the direction of acceleration/ gravity. It should not be thought of as a scattering event as this would not produce a crater chain. Because each part of the body is in a slightly different orbit they will each be accelerating at a slightly different speed. Over time this will create a string of objects that will get longer and longer. When the objects finally impact a moon or such it will produce a chain of craters. I suspect that very careful analysis of some chains will show the they are not directly aligned due to the slight miss alignment of fractures in a comet.
It is preposterous to think that aliens created these chains. Advanced aliens would not be so wasteful, they would use precession guided munitions to destroy individual structures and installations. If it was aliens we should also observe clusters and a host of other patterns of impact depending on the layout of the structures meant to be destroyed. The are no ring, arc, rectangular or other geometric craters chains.
In the light of all the evidence I find it hard to believe that people still try to pass off their crackpot ideas as science and then get offended by others trying to point out the truth. Having a somewhat second hand experience of military strategies does not make you an expert in orbital dynamics.
Lastly. My dad was a POW in WW2, forced to work in a munitions factory. Allied bombers regally bombed the compound he slaved in. He told me it was easy to avoid the bombs because the bombs fell in straight lines. Once you saw the first two bomb hit it was easy to workout which way to run to avoid the next dozen or so. I'm sure that aliens would do the same.
Comets/asteroids can be fractured by past impacts and are only held together by there own very weak gravity. As they pass close to a large body, such as a moon or planet, the object is gently pulled apart by gravity. The object breaking apart will separate in the direction of acceleration/ gravity. It should not be thought of as a scattering event as this would not produce a crater chain. Because each part of the body is in a slightly different orbit they will each be accelerating at a slightly different speed. Over time this will create a string of objects that will get longer and longer. When the objects finally impact a moon or such it will produce a chain of craters. I suspect that very careful analysis of some chains will show the they are not directly aligned due to the slight miss alignment of fractures in a comet.
It is preposterous to think that aliens created these chains. Advanced aliens would not be so wasteful, they would use precession guided munitions to destroy individual structures and installations. If it was aliens we should also observe clusters and a host of other patterns of impact depending on the layout of the structures meant to be destroyed. The are no ring, arc, rectangular or other geometric craters chains.
In the light of all the evidence I find it hard to believe that people still try to pass off their crackpot ideas as science and then get offended by others trying to point out the truth. Having a somewhat second hand experience of military strategies does not make you an expert in orbital dynamics.
Lastly. My dad was a POW in WW2, forced to work in a munitions factory. Allied bombers regally bombed the compound he slaved in. He told me it was easy to avoid the bombs because the bombs fell in straight lines. Once you saw the first two bomb hit it was easy to workout which way to run to avoid the next dozen or so. I'm sure that aliens would do the same.
craterchains (Norval said:
wow, you've used your brain for your entire life! thats pretty impressive credentials. If the astounding achievement of hanging around "experts" for 45 years makes you an expert I guess the 60 year old homeless guy outside my building is a professor of civil engineering by your standards.
Just because you've managed to not die for 45 years doesn't exactly make you an expert in physics or geology.
Oh, and the "tit" jab. Thats pretty clever... because my avatar is a breast... and you said tit. Do you guys get it? He called me tit because thats my avatar! oh god my stomach still hurts. seriously, if you quit your job as a crazy person, consider comedy. Your razor sharp wit has no, and I mean no, equal.
If mankind had made those crater chains it would be discussed in?
But if some one else does it then it is pseudo science?
RIGHT ! ! !
goofyfish
One Step From Sushi (4,461 posts) Today, 03:23 AM
forward reply
Three times, posts on this subject have been moved to Pseudoscience. Outside the fact that one thread on a topic is all that is necessary, please refrain from continued posting of this topic in the Astronomy, Exobiology & Cosmology subforum. Future postings there will be deleted, not moved.
Rick
But if some one else does it then it is pseudo science?
RIGHT ! ! !
goofyfish
One Step From Sushi (4,461 posts) Today, 03:23 AM
forward reply
Three times, posts on this subject have been moved to Pseudoscience. Outside the fact that one thread on a topic is all that is necessary, please refrain from continued posting of this topic in the Astronomy, Exobiology & Cosmology subforum. Future postings there will be deleted, not moved.
Rick
If mankind had made those crater chains it would be discussed in?
But if some one else does it then it is pseudo science?
Neither made them.
And the real problem is the four or five threads you have devoted to this topic.
You placed your first thread in Pseudoscience - I'll go with your instincts.
:m: Peace.
But if some one else does it then it is pseudo science?
Neither made them.
And the real problem is the four or five threads you have devoted to this topic.
You placed your first thread in Pseudoscience - I'll go with your instincts.
:m: Peace.
NO, you are wrong.
The first thread was in Astronomy for months before it got trashed by your friends ,,, then it got moved.
Get it right will yah?
The first thread was in Astronomy for months before it got trashed by your friends ,,, then it got moved.
Get it right will yah?
Unless I am missing a thread before "Mars, Destroyed By War?" I disagree.
The thread history shows it started in Pseudo. The next notation is when I closed it.
The thread history shows it started in Pseudo. The next notation is when I closed it.
ohhhhhhh I am SURE the data base says that too.
Kind of like some missing posts?
Like you looking away from obvious disruptions by your "friends"?
Like a comet can break up into 50 perfectly equally sized pieces and land in a fassion we cant even begin to duplicate with all our technology?
RIGHT ! ! !
The mark of all great conspiracies is the corruption of common knowledge.
Kind of like some missing posts?
Like you looking away from obvious disruptions by your "friends"?
Like a comet can break up into 50 perfectly equally sized pieces and land in a fassion we cant even begin to duplicate with all our technology?
RIGHT ! ! !
The mark of all great conspiracies is the corruption of common knowledge.
"So, if your theory of extraterrestrial war is true (and you maintain that it was still going on in the past few centuries) what kind of ideological division could the aliens possibly be fighting over for 214 million years? How could the Earthbound aliens possibly have failed to invent spacecraft and escape the war zone, considering that you contend that they are still alive? "
ever heard the story of Jesus ? He died for our sins.
i think this can be considered a microcosm of the galactal war.
i dont mean to disrupt your thread norval, so i wont dive into that pool here.
maybe i make a topic , but probably not- peoples here are not the least bit interested in alternative possiblities.
perhaps for rulership on the earth and its peoples?
perhaps some were fighting to OWN earth while others were fighting to LIBERATE it ?
perhaps some did escape in fear.
and you should be smart enough to know that advanced lifeforms would eventually propagate throughout their corner of the universe, meaning that only SOME peoples from their RACES actually came to earth to claim ground. this is why they are still alive, their RACE is still alive, elsewhere.
ever heard the story of Jesus ? He died for our sins.
i think this can be considered a microcosm of the galactal war.
i dont mean to disrupt your thread norval, so i wont dive into that pool here.
maybe i make a topic , but probably not- peoples here are not the least bit interested in alternative possiblities.
perhaps for ownership of the newly developed earth?
perhaps for rulership on the earth and its peoples?
perhaps some were fighting to OWN earth while others were fighting to LIBERATE it ?
perhaps they wanted to stay and fight till the end.
perhaps some did escape in fear.
and you should be smart enough to know that advanced lifeforms would eventually propagate throughout their corner of the universe, meaning that only SOME peoples from their RACES actually came to earth to claim ground. this is why they are still alive, their RACE is still alive, elsewhere.
Earth did not have peoples 214 million years ago. It had ferns, bugs, big lizards. No human beings, to be certain. Hence they would be taking the real long view if they looked 214 million years ahead to the few tens of thousands of years we've actually been here.
Jesus died for our sins? What's a sin? Why did he die "for" them? How did that affect us? How is this a microcosm of a galactic war of land possession? What is so special about Earth that so many different kinds of aliens would want it for so long?
Jesus died for our sins? What's a sin? Why did he die "for" them? How did that affect us? How is this a microcosm of a galactic war of land possession? What is so special about Earth that so many different kinds of aliens would want it for so long?
blackholesun
Registered Senior Member
Zonabi, Norval; the only disinformation agents I see around here are you guys.
Oh and Norval. Do try that hand of gravel experiment. If you swing it at a low angle with an underhand fashion you do indeed get and crater chain like pattern. It's not hard to do either. I'd guess is that when meteors that come in at a low angle break and start to break apart that the chunks still have momentum and follow the main chunk. I saw a video one time of a meteorite that was taped from a football game. The meteorite was breaking into chunks but those chunks were still following the lead chunk. Those chunkets broke up but a bigger meteorite would probably have pieces that would still make it to the ground.
Of course you'll call me an idiot and scream ALIENS! and zonabi will scream JESUS!
Oh and Norval. Do try that hand of gravel experiment. If you swing it at a low angle with an underhand fashion you do indeed get and crater chain like pattern. It's not hard to do either. I'd guess is that when meteors that come in at a low angle break and start to break apart that the chunks still have momentum and follow the main chunk. I saw a video one time of a meteorite that was taped from a football game. The meteorite was breaking into chunks but those chunks were still following the lead chunk. Those chunkets broke up but a bigger meteorite would probably have pieces that would still make it to the ground.
Of course you'll call me an idiot and scream ALIENS! and zonabi will scream JESUS!
AKA Heathen
Registered Senior Member
Norval and Gale. The last couple of pages prove the point I raised about poor rhetoric. Your credibility was thin to begin with and will continue to decline if you keep refusing to give coherent answers to simple, straightforward questions.
Or have you actually convinced yourselves that every single detractor must have an ulterior motive? Let’s see, I disagreed with you on several points and received a fast track promotion to ‘disinformation agent’. Should I disagree a few more times, do I become a ‘resident alien in exile’?
Council of Elders: For your failure to defend the interests of the Empire, we sentence you to ….life….on Earth….down among the humans.
Heathen: NNnnooooooooooo….
You know, I expect sleazy rhetoric from politicians, lawyers and advertisers. However, anyone who wishes to be taken seriously by the scientific community should avoid such tactics. For example:
“Bottkey or buttheadsky what ever”
This does not help your credibility at all. Especially since the notion of tidal disruption did not originate with Bottkey. Check this out:
“In 1993, it was independently realized by H. J. Melosh and P. Schenk after the discovery of D/Shoemaker-Levy 9 that comets disrupted by passage close to Jupiter would form linear crater chains if they were to strike one of the jovian satellites immediately after tidal disruption. (Melosh and Schenk 1993)”
From here: http://dosxx.colorado.edu/JUPITER/PDFS/Ch18.pdf
Of special interest is the date of the reference: 1993. After sl-9’s close pass but before the fragment train impacted Jupiter. (half way through it’s last orbit, actually)
Before getting to Melosh and Schenk’s paper I’d like to point out that the concept of tidal disruption is treated (more or less) as matter of fact by most of the community because it has passed the scrutiny of peer review, and not, as you claim, on faith. I’ll also point out that Bottkey is not the only one currently investigating tidal disruption.
“The brief and dramatic appearance of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 (S-L 9) has contributed to the notion that many small members of the solar system might be strengthless ‘rubble piles’, that is , material conglomerates having no significant structural strength other than their self gravity (e.g., Davis et al. 1979, Weissman 1986). As models of the S-L 9 encounter with Jupiter indicate, only a relatively strengthless rubble-pile is able to catastrophically disrupt into a cloud of debris that later condenses into twenty or so gravitating clumps having the S-L9 ‘string-of-pearls’ morphology (Asphaug and Benz 1994, 1996; Solem 1994). Further, it appears that similar events have occurred repeatedly in the Jovian system, as evidenced by the crater chains that scar two of the Galilean satellites with linear arrangements similar to the S-L9 fragment chain (Melosh and Schenk 1993, McKinnon and Schenk 1995, and Schenk et al. 1996)
From here: http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/~jhahn/pubs/tidal.pdf
The abstract to the paper follows. The title is “Split comets and the origin of crater chains on Ganymede and Callisto”
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v365/n6448/abs/365731a0.html
Bit of a tease, considering they only display the abstract. Well, I happen to have a hardcopy of the entire paper in my hands. I’ve had this for about ten years.
I don’t own a scanner and I’m not about to type the entire article, so, instead, I’ll ask you to do what you would have already done if you were serious about research.
I’ve examined the collection of images at your web site and have determined that you have enough for what I’ll ask of you.
First, if crater chains are tidally disrupted objects, then we should expect to find that the further moon (Callisto) would have longer (on average) crater chains than those found on the closer moon. (Ganymede) Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself.
Now, how’s that for a testable prediction?
Next, we should expect to find a greater number of craters making up each chain on Callisto than the chains on Ganymede.
Finally, due to volume conservation, we should expect that the chains with fewer craters would have larger crater diameters. (again, on average)
I rest my case. Crater chains are caused by tidally disrupted objects.
Or have you actually convinced yourselves that every single detractor must have an ulterior motive? Let’s see, I disagreed with you on several points and received a fast track promotion to ‘disinformation agent’. Should I disagree a few more times, do I become a ‘resident alien in exile’?
Council of Elders: For your failure to defend the interests of the Empire, we sentence you to ….life….on Earth….down among the humans.
Heathen: NNnnooooooooooo….
You know, I expect sleazy rhetoric from politicians, lawyers and advertisers. However, anyone who wishes to be taken seriously by the scientific community should avoid such tactics. For example:
“Bottkey or buttheadsky what ever”
This does not help your credibility at all. Especially since the notion of tidal disruption did not originate with Bottkey. Check this out:
“In 1993, it was independently realized by H. J. Melosh and P. Schenk after the discovery of D/Shoemaker-Levy 9 that comets disrupted by passage close to Jupiter would form linear crater chains if they were to strike one of the jovian satellites immediately after tidal disruption. (Melosh and Schenk 1993)”
From here: http://dosxx.colorado.edu/JUPITER/PDFS/Ch18.pdf
Of special interest is the date of the reference: 1993. After sl-9’s close pass but before the fragment train impacted Jupiter. (half way through it’s last orbit, actually)
Before getting to Melosh and Schenk’s paper I’d like to point out that the concept of tidal disruption is treated (more or less) as matter of fact by most of the community because it has passed the scrutiny of peer review, and not, as you claim, on faith. I’ll also point out that Bottkey is not the only one currently investigating tidal disruption.
“The brief and dramatic appearance of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 (S-L 9) has contributed to the notion that many small members of the solar system might be strengthless ‘rubble piles’, that is , material conglomerates having no significant structural strength other than their self gravity (e.g., Davis et al. 1979, Weissman 1986). As models of the S-L 9 encounter with Jupiter indicate, only a relatively strengthless rubble-pile is able to catastrophically disrupt into a cloud of debris that later condenses into twenty or so gravitating clumps having the S-L9 ‘string-of-pearls’ morphology (Asphaug and Benz 1994, 1996; Solem 1994). Further, it appears that similar events have occurred repeatedly in the Jovian system, as evidenced by the crater chains that scar two of the Galilean satellites with linear arrangements similar to the S-L9 fragment chain (Melosh and Schenk 1993, McKinnon and Schenk 1995, and Schenk et al. 1996)
From here: http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/~jhahn/pubs/tidal.pdf
The abstract to the paper follows. The title is “Split comets and the origin of crater chains on Ganymede and Callisto”
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v365/n6448/abs/365731a0.html
Bit of a tease, considering they only display the abstract. Well, I happen to have a hardcopy of the entire paper in my hands. I’ve had this for about ten years.
I don’t own a scanner and I’m not about to type the entire article, so, instead, I’ll ask you to do what you would have already done if you were serious about research.
I’ve examined the collection of images at your web site and have determined that you have enough for what I’ll ask of you.
First, if crater chains are tidally disrupted objects, then we should expect to find that the further moon (Callisto) would have longer (on average) crater chains than those found on the closer moon. (Ganymede) Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself.
Now, how’s that for a testable prediction?
Next, we should expect to find a greater number of craters making up each chain on Callisto than the chains on Ganymede.
Finally, due to volume conservation, we should expect that the chains with fewer craters would have larger crater diameters. (again, on average)
I rest my case. Crater chains are caused by tidally disrupted objects.
AKA Heathen
If you searched a little farther you would have discovered the tidal theory is even older than 1993 or even check the footnotes of your 10 year old copy there should be some indications of older research papers quoted in that 1993 publication.
Bottke et. al. (Richardson & Love) did the most resent work with computer animated modeling but even more recently is the computer modeling done at a Russian Academy of Science by Natalia Artemieva. Natalia even admits the program is flawed.
You might expect that, even postulate such a thing but your speculating that the asteroid or comet would travel similar as SL9 in creating crater chains on Callisto and in using SL9 example then any pieces farther from Jupiter would stretch the crater chain longer. You are forgetting that the farther the fragments travel, the farther apart the fragments get from each other. So your analogy is incorrect. As illustrated:
The same response for your next statement. The farther away from Jupiter the position SL9 was to Callisto makes the pieces of the asteroid or comet spread not line up perfectly side by side. Your just blowing hot air. There is no way that a breaking up asteroid or comet would line itself up perfectly to impact any surface simultaneously lengthwise and it is absolutely ridiculous to even put such a proposition on paper.
edited: to fix image url
If you searched a little farther you would have discovered the tidal theory is even older than 1993 or even check the footnotes of your 10 year old copy there should be some indications of older research papers quoted in that 1993 publication.
Bottke et. al. (Richardson & Love) did the most resent work with computer animated modeling but even more recently is the computer modeling done at a Russian Academy of Science by Natalia Artemieva. Natalia even admits the program is flawed.
Small Stony Asteroids Will Explode and Not Hit Earth, Study Shows
You might expect that, even postulate such a thing but your speculating that the asteroid or comet would travel similar as SL9 in creating crater chains on Callisto and in using SL9 example then any pieces farther from Jupiter would stretch the crater chain longer. You are forgetting that the farther the fragments travel, the farther apart the fragments get from each other. So your analogy is incorrect. As illustrated:
PIA01264: Evolution of the P/Shoemaker-Levy 9 "Gang of Four" Region
The same response for your next statement. The farther away from Jupiter the position SL9 was to Callisto makes the pieces of the asteroid or comet spread not line up perfectly side by side. Your just blowing hot air. There is no way that a breaking up asteroid or comet would line itself up perfectly to impact any surface simultaneously lengthwise and it is absolutely ridiculous to even put such a proposition on paper.
edited: to fix image url
Zonabi
Many possibilities, a few probabilities, ONE TRUTH.
Blackholesun
The kids in grade school called you what you are blackholesun, a liar, and I would have to agree with their view point. They don’t seem to be as gullible as you .
AKA
The complete reports and papers were read 3 years ago when we started this investigation. It must be great to get paid by the word. That is why it is so long and drawn out.
POINT BEING, it is NEXT to impossible mathematically for this to happen. When confronted they were unable to provide the computer model that would actually show that a comet would do this. THEY admit that it wont work. When confronted with the MATH they ADMIT it is a very long shot and highly improbable. That is why their papers are being taken off the net. It certainly isn’t being used in the think tanks on the subject. And NASA wouldn’t be checking out other theories if THEY really accepted it.
IN other words, it is a dying theory of the past, like the sound barrier theory.
Like electrons flow from + to – used to be taught, and today we know is opposite.
Like a comet can break up into 50 perfectly equally sized pieces, and STRIKE AT THE SAME TIME, and land in a fashion we cant even begin to duplicate with all our technology? RIGHT ! ! !
The mark of all great conspiracies is the corruption of common knowledge.
Many possibilities, a few probabilities, ONE TRUTH.
Blackholesun
The kids in grade school called you what you are blackholesun, a liar, and I would have to agree with their view point. They don’t seem to be as gullible as you .
AKA
The complete reports and papers were read 3 years ago when we started this investigation. It must be great to get paid by the word. That is why it is so long and drawn out.
POINT BEING, it is NEXT to impossible mathematically for this to happen. When confronted they were unable to provide the computer model that would actually show that a comet would do this. THEY admit that it wont work. When confronted with the MATH they ADMIT it is a very long shot and highly improbable. That is why their papers are being taken off the net. It certainly isn’t being used in the think tanks on the subject. And NASA wouldn’t be checking out other theories if THEY really accepted it.
IN other words, it is a dying theory of the past, like the sound barrier theory.
Like electrons flow from + to – used to be taught, and today we know is opposite.
Like a comet can break up into 50 perfectly equally sized pieces, and STRIKE AT THE SAME TIME, and land in a fashion we cant even begin to duplicate with all our technology? RIGHT ! ! !
The mark of all great conspiracies is the corruption of common knowledge.
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