Courage not cowardice; balls not bluster

Does it really matter if done by an individual or a state?

I start to wonder if we should trust people who talk like that with guns.

No, really:

ok how and why and to what purpose?

Okay. I'll take you seriously on that point, because it's true, the general disregard or disdain for civilized society presented in the shooter rights argument is pretty well established. Sometimes people think they're being clever, somehow, but it doesn't play nearly as well as those would expect or hope or presume or whatever.

You seem to be considering the act of killing in a vacuum. If you need the fact of civilized society explained to you vis à vis firearms, then you're doing it wrong.

State holds the monopoly on coercive force; individual does not.

The thing about the shooter's rights movement is that it is abjectly selfish; it's not really about the keeping of arms, but the bearing, insofar as what the movement is really after is to threaten and hunt and kill other human beings for any reason under the sun. In the end, it is a political fight to expand the reservation; there are circumstances in which we, as individuals, are licensed to exercise coercive violence; the shooter rights argument seeks to expand the range of circumstances.

To the other, I live in a time when "Mexican" is the new "nigger", such that we really are hearing "MS-13 lover" talk among the right wing, and I'm aware of at least one shooter rights advocate who uses the MS-13 argument to disqualify people from humanity. Additionally, there is this delightfully awful video, and I can't tell you how much America feels like itself, now, having seen it, of an angry woman making slanty-eyes out her car window and cussing out a Korean-American veteran and telling him to go back to China.

So it's probably best to not be expanding the justified homicide reservation right now. And in a society demonstrating its difficulty discerning threats, some might think they are clever for clumsy pretenses of ignorance, but this is also the role they choose for participating in civic homicide advocacy; and for all the years we have waited, expecting this advocacy to eventually make some useful point, the only consistent point and purpose about it has been antisociability, a determined effort to invent more pretenses of reason, freedom, and necessity for killing other human beings.

If you've a thesis you're after, then you might as well just state it.

If, to the other, you're just asking people to put in work so you can complain about what's wrong with whatever they say, then it's probably best to acknowledge that up front, as well.

What re-evaluation would be in order, according to your question? That's the problem with the argument of the question mark, JAQing off, Just Asking Questions, Endless Pointless, or however we might describe this fallacious method; there is something those questions equal, but you won't say it until you coax a setup out of someone. What is it you're looking for? Just come right out and say it; the point either has merit or not, and no amount of posturing for a rhetorical sleight is going to help if the point just doesn't have merit beyond word games.
 
...

State holds the monopoly on coercive force; individual does not.

... .

One helluva monopoly.
It seems that the justification would be housed within the ability to call murder/killing "coercive force".
(with a straight face)
 
Ne'er shall the twain meet. "Liberals", rather than conservatives, are masters of the art of deflection, projection, and denial these days:

"So what you're saying is..."
"So what you really mean is..."


I keep weapons. I keep boxes of ammo on the bookshelf, right next to C.S. Lewis, Beatrix Potter, and Omar Khayyam. So the hell what? Mexicans have weapons, blacks have weapon, Koreans have weapons, Jews have weapons. Some legal, some not. So the hell what? I do not give the government anything they don't arrest me for, and I sure as hell won't give up my absolute right to protect my family and my property. Not a right "granted" by my Constitution. A return to serfdom is what the idiots want, I guess. Let's see how that goes.

The second amendment is another of those pesky things the founders wrote in to limit the "absolute right of monarchy" as it existed in England up until the late 1500's, and one of the reasons those pesky "freedoms" granted by our government.

Thank God the US hasn't started jailing people for free speech like the UK, but I suppose Washington state and California will very soon. Wring your hands and tell other people just exactly how and why they're wrong, instead of spewing the same shit over and over again.

Again, I'm not a Republican, but when the libtards started lying about trivial things just to make petty and childish points for the pabulum-fed idiots that the school systems have raised, instead of parents who care what happens to their families.

I'm gonna vote Republican this time, for damned sure. If for no other reason than shutting down (hopefully) this putsch from the left. Deny reason and sell it hard; see what the conservatives put up with until we're a one-party Fascist state. Let's see how that goes...

Where I live I can keep weapons, mainly to prevent coyotes and other wild things away from my dogs and property. Where I won't be challenged as "racist" by willfully ignorant people that haven't had the benefit of a decent education, (by design), or accused of being a NAZI by morons who haven't read history, and probably can't read at more than 450 wpm.

Fuck this place. "You gentleman may go to hell. I will go to Texas."
 
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from OU RUF-NEKs

"Don't send my boy to Texas!"
The dying mother said.
"Don't send my boy to Texas!
I'd rather see him dead!
 
Well, it is hot down here, and the deer are small.

Summer in Texas really sucks, but we don't have six-foot snowdrifts in winter, either.. :p
 
I'm gonna vote Republican this time, for damned sure. If for no other reason than shutting down (hopefully) this putsch from the left. Deny reason and sell it hard; see what the conservatives put up with until we're a one-party Fascist state.
The context of that is a political discussion within a country in which a fascist Party has recently gained nominal Partisan majority control of all three branches of the Federal government and a majority of the State governments, along with dominant media influence.

The guy is looking at a Trump presidency, and describing it as a putsch from the left. He's going to vote for more of the same, to shut the same down. It's everybody's fault but his.

You can't make this shit up. The lengths to which adult American men will go to deny what they have done, avoid confronting their history and the consequences of their behavior, cannot be exaggerated. And the clear implication of cowardice cannot be avoided.
 
Thank God the US hasn't started jailing people for free speech like the UK, but I suppose Washington state and California will very soon.

Weeeelllll..... it's actually happening. Quick google search:

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-its-like-arrested-protesting-paul-ryan
On April 18, she and three friends — Rachel Zeidenberg, 16, and Eva Sofia Esposito, 15, of Bethesda, Maryland, and Jordan Joseph, 16, of Arlington, Virginia — went to House Speaker Paul Ryan’s office in Washington, D.C., for a protest.

Within the hour, they were in the back of a police van, hands bound behind their backs. Though they had only been in the hallway outside Ryan’s office for mere minutes, the girls were taken to a juvenile detention center where they spent hours in a holding cell, waiting for their parents to pick them up.

Often times, those arrested wind up losing their stuff:

https://pressfreedomtracker.us/all-incidents/journalist-alexei-wood-arrested-inauguration-protest/

Independent photojournalist Alexei Wood was arrested while covering protests on the day of the inauguration of U.S. President Donald Trump.

Wood was among more than 230 people arrested in Washington on Inauguration Day after some individuals set fire to a car and broke windows of downtown businesses.

Wood told the Freedom of the Press Foundation that, when he was arrested, he was carrying a lot of professional equipment — including a Canon 7D camera body with a 16–35 L lens, at least four memory cards with over 200 GB of photos, a Rode external microphone, a monopod, and an Android phone (which he used to livestream the protest on Facebook Live).

All of his equipment was seized and searched by police after he was arrested. The lens was later returned to him, but the rest of his equipment was not.

Like other journalists arrested during the Inauguration protests, Wood was initially charged with one count of rioting, a felony which carries a penalty of up to 10 years in jail.

But on April 27, a grand jury indicted him on eight separate felony counts:

  • Five felony counts of destruction of property
  • One felony count of inciting a riot
  • One felony count of engaging in a riot
  • One felony count of conspiracy to riot
The eight counts carry a combined maximum sentence of more than 60 years in prison.

Not to mention that Cheeto Mussolini would love to see reporters thrown in jail:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...utting-reporters-in-jail-in-conversation-with

In a memo dated Feb. 19, 2017, Comey recounted that Trump shared concerns about leaks from within his administration. The president suggested jailing reporters "to find out what they know."

and

“(Trump) replied by saying it may involve putting reporters in jail. ‘They spend a couple days in jail, make a new friend, and they are ready to talk.’ I laughed as I walked to the door Reince Priebus had opened,” Comey wrote.

Implying they should be thrown in prison to be raped.

Of course:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/10/15610546/price-conway-dan-heyman-arrest

Price and Conway, however, didn’t answer. So Heyman, who works for Public News Service, did what any good journalist would do: He persisted. Heyman continued following the Trump administration officials down a hallway on Tuesday at the state Capitol building in Charleston, West Virginia, asking them the question over and over.

Then, police arrested him. According to a criminal complaint reported by Samantha Schmidt at the Washington Post, Heyman is charged with “willful disruption of state government processes.” The charge carries the possibility of jail time and a fine of $100 or more.

Perhaps if Trump and his cronies weren't such fucking cowards and would answer legitimate questions posed to them by reporters, then things like this could be avoided.

And then you have:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...rs-reporters-from-meeting-20180522-story.html

Reporters from CNN, the Associated Press and the environmental publication E&E News were prevented from attending the meeting, which included about 200 representatives of regulatory and industry groups.

AP reporter Ellen Knickmeyer tweeted that EPA guards grabbed a reporter by the shoulders and "shoved" the journalist out of the building. Knickmeyer declined to identify herself as the reporter, but AP later confirmed that she was the one excluded.

And then:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-comey-russia-state-media-tass-a7729611.html

The White House barred reporters from witnessing the meeting between Donald Trump and Sergey Lavrov but granted access to Russian state media, it has emerged.

David S Cohen, the former deputy director of the CIA, is among those alarmed by the decision to allow a Tass news agency photographer into the Oval Office, which some argued could present a security risk.

So... yeah, it would seem that 1a is already well on its way to being dismantled and destroyed; well, at least if you don't have money or aren't a support of Fuehrer Trump, at least.

But, yeah, go ahead and support and encourage this kind of behavior. Hopefully, when they come to "ensure compliance", you will remember that you are giving up your guns then because you were desperate to protect them from imaginary bogeymen now.
 
more precisely, when is killing ok?
Let's start by saying: Not when you have to lie about it afterwards, to yourself, to feel justified and ok. Not when you have to hide from your own assessments and evaluations, play the coward.
So far so good?
 
Trolling, still, iceaura? As I said, "masters of the art of deflection, projection, and denial these days".

You've got the it, even as you lose it publicly by making stupid statements like the above.

Perhaps if Trump and his cronies weren't such fucking cowards and would answer legitimate questions posed to them by reporters, then things like this could be avoided.

Sort of like every administration since Eisenhower? I'm not old enough to know if he did dirty behind the doors, but I remember him saying something about the military-industrial complex... That didn't happen, right?

And none of the bullshit since, right? It's just too bad that the US doesn't have a truly foresighted leader like Angela Merkel or the fuckwits in Brussels. Ask another brit about why the Muslims are a protected class, and others are banned from the country or hauled into the star chamber and shipped away to be killed.

Why not do it like Mexico does: Como los desaparecidos, sin crimen, pero los inmigrantes a los Estados Unidos, que son guiados a través de la frontera con los Estados Unidos.

I'd much rather have Mexican immigrants here than anyone who has pledged destruction to the US, like the Muslims have already managed to do in Europe, Canada and elsewhere. The vandals are at the gates, and you fools are still partying.
 
Let's start by saying: Not when you have to lie about it afterwards, to yourself, to feel justified and ok. Not when you have to hide from your own assessments and evaluations, play the coward.
So far so good?

that was rather a non-answer dadio
the question was:
When is killing ok?
 
that was rather a non-answer dadio
the question was:
When is killing ok?
Followed by the question: So far so good?

And that was a first step in approach - in particular, a step designed to maintain thread relevance: the topic being cowardice, and bluster; my emphasis being recognition of that state of affairs.
If we have some examples of killing that was not ok, that would be helpful, no? And we can spot them by spotting denial - cowardice - in those complicit in some way or rationalizing in some way with the deeds themselves. Hiroshima/Nagasaki was not ok, for example.
I'd much rather have Mexican immigrants here than anyone who has pledged destruction to the US, like the Muslims have already managed to do in Europe, Canada and elsewhere.
And yet you pledge to vote Republican - the best buddies of Saudi Arabia, the Party that has set up shop in Dubai and Kuwait and made the US partners in the Wahabi ascendency, the Party that invited 9/11, and the Party that cannot even speak of Mexicans without slander and fear-mongering.
Because to acknowledge the consequences of your past political favoritism would be to assume a burden of responsibility for change you fear.
 
Let me try to help, Sculptor: A rational person would say, "only when necessary".

Ice will deflect, project, deny and lie. And folks like him presume to tell others when it's necessary, or how wrong they are. The answer there is obvious, "Never!", even though that is complete bullshit.

And he spewed more while I was typing this. Goddamned fool would rather get shot or raped than defend himself. Or is that just more trolling? Would ice call the cops after he gets killed? Or forgive...

Christ almighty.
 
I'd much rather have Mexican immigrants here than anyone who has pledged destruction to the US, like the Muslims have already managed to do in Europe, Canada and elsewhere. The vandals are at the gates, and you fools are still partying.

Bigotry, simple bigotry. I'm sorry you live in such absolute fear of an entire religion because of a few extremists, Toad... I'm guessing you're also afraid of Catholics, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, etc? After all - they all have their extremists.
 
Now you're trolling. The point of the thread was to establish and discuss the differences between courage and cowardice, but as usual it devolves to the superior beings telling other folks what to do and how to do it. Screw that, and no thanks. Y'all should have never allowed Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to take your island from the Stuarts and rename themselves "Windsor". Don't talk shit, please.

I don't fear anyone without reason, and no, I don't walk around armed just to kill "other races". Deflect, project and lie and deny.

Keep it up and you'll have to convert to the "religion of peace". If you look at another thread I've been active in over the last few days, you might notice that I rejoice in having friends and acquaintances from many different races and cultures.
 
Ice will deflect, project, deny and lie. And folks like him presume to tell others when it's necessary, or how wrong they are. The answer there is obvious, "Never!", even though that is complete bullshit.

And he spewed more while I was typing this. Goddamned fool would rather get shot or raped than defend himself. Or is that just more trolling? Would ice call the cops after he gets killed? Or forgive...
Which brings up the second half of the thread title - bluster.

These guys bluster a lot. And they are obsessed - to the point of framing the world - with what they perceive as other people trying to assert dominance, tell them what to do, parade claimed superiority, and so forth. They can no more not see that all around them than not see a face in the ceiling stains. If there's nothing in the actual posting here, for example, they will predict it or write it in themselves, and then proceed as if they had read it - apparently for the purpose of making the world comprehensible by them.

So this becomes an issue with the bothsides jamb in gun control. The idea of negotiating, of agreement, will require limits - explicit boundaries of application.
 
iceaura: Dude, I was talking about you. (Wait, did you delete your vomitous post?)

Another liberal tactic: When someone pins you with a simple question that doesn't fit the agenda, your lame excuse of "Well, we should have a conversation about that.", while ignoring facts that don't suit you.

Deflection and lying again. I guess you can't help it, and I feel sorry for your narrow-minded defense of irrational thoughts, just in the name of "progress".

You're on ignore, asshole. Report me while you piss on your shoes.
 
Now you're trolling. The point of the thread was to establish and discuss the differences between courage and cowardice, but as usual it devolves to the superior beings telling other folks what to do and how to do it. Screw that, and no thanks. Y'all should have never allowed Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to take your island from the Stuarts and rename themselves "Windsor". Don't talk shit, please.

I don't fear anyone without reason, and no, I don't walk around armed just to kill "other races". Deflect, project and lie and deny.

Keep it up and you'll have to convert to the "religion of peace". If you look at another thread I've been active in over the last few days, you might notice that I rejoice in having friends and acquaintances from many different races and cultures.

First, nice deflection - you ignore the point entirely (the point being your irrational fear of an entire religion).

Second - you have had a multitude of warnings regarding your behavior over the last two years. It would appear this lesson has yet to sink in for you. Continued failure to abide by simple forum guidelines will see additional infractions issued.
 
One helluva monopoly.
It seems that the justification would be housed within the ability to call murder/killing "coercive force".
(with a straight face)

It's not exactly a new term.

No, really, 1576, at least.

1651?

By the time we get to Weber (1919), or Arendt's counterargument (1970)?

Some more recent considerations:

• Brown, Howard G. "Domestic State Violence: Repression From The Croquants To The Commune". History in Focus Electronic Seminars in History. 30 June 1997. History.AC.uk. 1 June 2018. http://bit.ly/2sq4pRY

• Lottholz, Philipp and Nicholas Lemay Hébert. "Re-reading Weber, re-conceptualizing state-building: from neo-Weberian to post-Weberian approaches to state, legitimacy and state-building". Cambridge Review of International Affairs, 29:14, 1467-1485. 2016. TandFOnline.com. 1 June 2018. http://bit.ly/2J5J9qS

Oh, right:

• Weber, Max. Politics as a Vocation. 1919. Anthropos-Lab.net. 1 June 2018. http://bit.ly/2sD479M
 
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