Courage not cowardice; balls not bluster

Words
Words
and more Words
bereft of meaning become meaningless, and by contamination make all words from the same source seem meaningless.
meanwhile
from Wiki:
"There is no fixed definition of a mass shooting, but a common definition is an act of violence — excluding gang killings, domestic violence, or terrorist acts sponsored by an organization — in which a gunman kills at least four victims. Using this definition, ... , Gun Violence Archive records 152 mass shootings in the United States between 1967 and May 2018, averaging eight fatalities per incident when the perpetrator's death is included."

OK
Perhaps you have your own peculiar definition of "mass shooting"?
Perhaps, you would like to share that definition?
I actually went with the FBI definition, from that Wiki page you just quoted from.. And which you interestingly and conveniently left out of your quote..

As of November 2017, the FBI defines a mass shooting as an incident involving "four or more people shot at once."[20]

Which is also what Mass Shooting Tracker happen to use.

Unless of course TCS's demands will now change in regards to what information can be used in this thread?
 
The same thing could be said for you, could it not?
only if you're projecting...
If the only intent or purpose is to be disciplined or effective and if "there is a whole segment of shooters" who are not interested in owning firearms for the purpose of self defense, then those firearms can be held in a secure facility, such as a gun range and they can go and get their guns and target shoot to their heart's content.
1- there are whole segments who do this
2- the 2A (I know it's a "law" and that you like to interpret them with your bias, but you will not find anything in said amendment that designates that weapons of any kind can't be owned and stored at home. interpret away...)
Aside from that, you again ignore the obvious of the large portion of shooters who do not do this, and instead have firearms to 'kill their enemies' as Dr_Toad so aptly described his need and requirement for firearms.

What do you think he is doing when he goes target shooting? What effectiveness is he after, exactly
unfortunately for you, I actually know Dr_Toad.
unfortunately for you, I am not ignoring the segment who uses target practice for effective force, etc
unfortunately for you, I also remember the context and reason sport target shooters were brought up in the first place:
You target shoot for practice to enable you to be able to kill more swiftly and efficiently. There is also a reason why gun violence is so prevalent in your country and why your country is known for mass shootings.
this means that shooters (no clarification on your part, so this applies to all shooters per your statement) target practice to kill.
this, specifically, ignores large segments of the population that only want to learn to sport target shoot, which only means killing concentric circles in a specific way to increase the assigned points in order to establish superiority over another competitor for recognition of hard work, training and skill.

the digression into this topic is because you irrationally judge others based upon your own fearful bias (called prejudice) and you wish to assign an emotional label to justify your argument and place a perceived negative attachment to anyone who would diverge from your opinion and beliefs
Why not?

La vérité blesse?
Non. C'est comme si le fait de discuter avec une personne émotive et irrationnelle ne ferait qu'exacerber la situation.
It's bad enough considering the whole Koresh argument you presented... at least I got a laugh out of that since you (again) completely ignore fact for your opinion and beliefs
Why don't you ask David Koresh that?

Oh wait....

Cults come under suspicion when they start stockpiling guns. Your country has a history dealing with that too.
so - what kind of fanatic would have chosen Waco as demonstrative of cults being selected for punishment while ignoring the fact that BATFE was investigating the stockpiling of illegal weapons??
... not weapons in general, but illegal weapons. Illegal specifically means :
Not authorized by law; Illicit ; unlawful; contrary to law. Sometimes this term means merely that which lacks authority of or support from law; but more frequently it imports a violation.
and again, because the law is relevant in this case :
when any organization, religious group, cult, business, individual or family stockpiles illegal weapons, law enforcement has the right, should they present a warrant or have probable cause during a routine visit and/or health and welfare check, to search and detain individuals as well as seize illegal weapons. In point of fact, even if said weapons are not illegal, LEO's have the ability to seize said weapons to check them should there be probable cause presented during an investigation.

so, only someone who is either completely ignorant of the situation or has an agenda that is intentionally ignoring facts would use the BD's as an example in that case

There is plenty of evidence you're becoming far too emotional and irrational to continue conversing with, as noted by your inclusion of me into a derogatory attempt to troll while talking to Sculptor
Unless of course TCS's demands will now change in regards to what information can be used in this thread?
is that your version of trolling because I asked you to use source material from the only reporting agencies we have instead of randomly choosing an opinion article that articulates your moral argument while cherry-picking?
All I wanted to do was save time from extensive research - it's never stopped you from completely denying facts in the past, so why would you suddenly be offended, let alone actually abide by the request?
You have consistently tried to change the subject and you were called out on it multiple times by different people.
And you are the one who is intent on changing the subject to everything but the core problem to focus on. Why is that?
repeating this doesn't make it truer
I'll put it this way. It is because of people like you that your country needs gun control.
emotional and irrational statement made from fear and bias
it's because of people like you that our country established the 2A

fascinating that you would choose to state this - supports the argument that you have an emotional bias and percieved moral superiority to others. I'm almost surprised you didn't continue that with some religious or corporal punishment to go along with the self-righteous posturing.

what next?
are you going to tell everyone that I'm a heathen? That I don't care? That I want children to die?

which fanatical leftist rhetorical argument will you choose?
Are you sure about that? Or are your grandchildren homeschooled?

Have you asked your grandchildren? Have you asked your children and the parents of those grandchildren if they are concerned about the risk of a mass shooting in their kid's school?
yes, I am sure. no, they're not homeschooled.
Yes, I did ask them. Yes, the school did talk to the children and parents (mostly at the request of people like me).
Just because you can present a poll to support your beliefs doesn't mean you know jack sh*t about the local school or my grandkids...

That whole attack was to present the farcical argument that I am not aware of my grandkids just because you really, really want to believe that you know more about my local area than I do and you want to present the talking points of your ideology as fact because my reply directly contradicted your statement. Again: the digression into this topic is because you irrationally judge others based upon your own fearful bias (called prejudice) and you wish to assign an emotional label to justify your argument and place a percieved negative attachment to anyone who would diverge from your opinion and beliefs.
La vérité blesse?

interruption: I am going to have to address your other issues later.
Duty calls
 
If you are referring to the "leaders of this great country"...............
I am not those men.
They do not now represent me, nor, it would seem, have they ever represented me.

Which, just might be why we have a bill of rights.
I’m referring to the citizens who politically supported the various interventionist policies of “this great nation.” Have you abstained from this practice?
 
<------------grumpy old anti-war vet

I’m referring to the citizens who politically supported the various interventionist policies of “this great nation.” Have you abstained from this practice?

War is bad enough, but police action interventionist policies are criminal murder by any other name.
What the USA did in Libya is a crime.
What the USA did/(are doing?) in Syria is a crime.
The politicians who ordered these crimes are war criminals and should be brought to trial.

I am not those men!

Who will do this? Who will bring a US president to trial on "war" crimes...( when it was just "a police action")?
(certainly not our NATO toadies?) Who will speak for the people of the nations that the US government has bombed and destroyed?

Will you?
Can you?
 
only if you're projecting...

1- there are whole segments who do this
2- the 2A (I know it's a "law" and that you like to interpret them with your bias, but you will not find anything in said amendment that designates that weapons of any kind can't be owned and stored at home. interpret away...)

unfortunately for you, I actually know Dr_Toad.
unfortunately for you, I am not ignoring the segment who uses target practice for effective force, etc
unfortunately for you, I also remember the context and reason sport target shooters were brought up in the first place: this means that shooters (no clarification on your part, so this applies to all shooters per your statement) target practice to kill.
this, specifically, ignores large segments of the population that only want to learn to sport target shoot, which only means killing concentric circles in a specific way to increase the assigned points in order to establish superiority over another competitor for recognition of hard work, training and skill.

the digression into this topic is because you irrationally judge others based upon your own fearful bias (called prejudice) and you wish to assign an emotional label to justify your argument and place a perceived negative attachment to anyone who would diverge from your opinion and beliefs

Non. C'est comme si le fait de discuter avec une personne émotive et irrationnelle ne ferait qu'exacerber la situation.
It's bad enough considering the whole Koresh argument you presented... at least I got a laugh out of that since you (again) completely ignore fact for your opinion and beliefs

so - what kind of fanatic would have chosen Waco as demonstrative of cults being selected for punishment while ignoring the fact that BATFE was investigating the stockpiling of illegal weapons??
... not weapons in general, but illegal weapons. Illegal specifically means :
and again, because the law is relevant in this case :
when any organization, religious group, cult, business, individual or family stockpiles illegal weapons, law enforcement has the right, should they present a warrant or have probable cause during a routine visit and/or health and welfare check, to search and detain individuals as well as seize illegal weapons. In point of fact, even if said weapons are not illegal, LEO's have the ability to seize said weapons to check them should there be probable cause presented during an investigation.

so, only someone who is either completely ignorant of the situation or has an agenda that is intentionally ignoring facts would use the BD's as an example in that case

There is plenty of evidence you're becoming far too emotional and irrational to continue conversing with, as noted by your inclusion of me into a derogatory attempt to troll while talking to Sculptor
is that your version of trolling because I asked you to use source material from the only reporting agencies we have instead of randomly choosing an opinion article that articulates your moral argument while cherry-picking?
All I wanted to do was save time from extensive research - it's never stopped you from completely denying facts in the past, so why would you suddenly be offended, let alone actually abide by the request?


repeating this doesn't make it truer

emotional and irrational statement made from fear and bias
it's because of people like you that our country established the 2A

fascinating that you would choose to state this - supports the argument that you have an emotional bias and percieved moral superiority to others. I'm almost surprised you didn't continue that with some religious or corporal punishment to go along with the self-righteous posturing.

what next?
are you going to tell everyone that I'm a heathen? That I don't care? That I want children to die?

which fanatical leftist rhetorical argument will you choose?
yes, I am sure. no, they're not homeschooled.
Yes, I did ask them. Yes, the school did talk to the children and parents (mostly at the request of people like me).
Just because you can present a poll to support your beliefs doesn't mean you know jack sh*t about the local school or my grandkids...

That whole attack was to present the farcical argument that I am not aware of my grandkids just because you really, really want to believe that you know more about my local area than I do and you want to present the talking points of your ideology as fact because my reply directly contradicted your statement. Again: the digression into this topic is because you irrationally judge others based upon your own fearful bias (called prejudice) and you wish to assign an emotional label to justify your argument and place a percieved negative attachment to anyone who would diverge from your opinion and beliefs.
La vérité blesse?

interruption: I am going to have to address your other issues later.
Duty calls
All the above from a poster who can not acknowledge and goes out of his way to deny that:
The Pro-gun lobby promotes violence.

It takes courage to step out of your comfort zone and start to see the reality of what you are promoting.
You may think I am making some sort of moral judgement but I am not.
I am simply stating fact.
The morality of violence and such I leave to the violent to work out.
 
We shoot enemies for our lives. No problem.

The problem, of course, comes when tough talkers show themselves demonstrably↗ unqualified↗ to discern the difference:

So you want a "safe" place in Bothell for MS-13 animals, just because they used to be human? Bullshit. Total bullshit.

Gangsters aren't fucking human. For less than a quarter per varmint, you can be shut of them. Be aghast, and then just step back and shut the hell up while grownups clean your sandbox.

You're not smart enough to decide who gets to be human or not.
 
It's around half.

As per the CDC, suicide by firearms: 22,018 in 2015, I believe.

Homicide with the use of firearms: 12,979
That's around one third homicide, two thirds suicide - ignoring the classification problem, domestic murder/suicide being as common as it is (also false accident, suicide by cop, and so forth).
There are ways to substantially reduce American suicide via gun control, wag the dog by the tail - but they would be a hard sell to anyone aware of the already authoritarian lean of US government. They're dangerous.
I actually went with the FBI definition, from that Wiki page you just quoted from.. And which you interestingly and conveniently left out of your quote..
The authoritarian lean of the US government again looms - and muddies the matter of gun control: the gun regulations needed for incrementally reducing domestic and gang gun violence are very important, and folding these killings into the school shootings reduces the pressure for either set. Rate of fire and magazine restrictions would play only negligible roles in reducing mass shooting deaths under that FBI definition, for example - easily dismissed, statistically, by lobbyists who are in fact arguing from "reason".

Taking up one side of the bothsides jamb is a bad idea even if you win - from a liberal perspective, anyway.

The liberal, good governance, sane cause side needs as tight a monopoly on reason as it can get. It's never going to have a power and money advantage - not and remain liberal, good, and sane.
 
The GOP now has a fifth cause of gun violence. (None, of course, have anything to do with the easy availability of guns.) From Texas we already learned that:

-video games
-too many doors
-not enough Jesus in schools
-abortion

causes gun violence.

Now from Rep. Diane Black of Tennessee we have the latest scapegoat that has nothing to do with guns.

"Why do we see kids being so violent? What's out there? What makes them do that? Because, as a nurse, I go back to root cause. And I think it's a couple things. . .Pornography. It's available. It's available on the shelf when you walk in the grocery store. Yeah, you have to reach up to get it, but there's pornography there. All of this is available without parental guidance. And I think that's a big part of the root cause, that we see so many young people that have mental illness get caught in these places."
 
"...reach up to get it..."? Is she living in the 1950s? DARPA doesn't exist yet? Hey, nursey, want some amputee syphilitic tentacle nurse porn?
 
While semi-automatic rifles are widely available, fully automatic weapons are not. You can still buy an automatic weapon, but their sale and ownership is highly regulated and exceptionally expensive.

OK
As though this isn't obvious:
What effect do the regulations have?
 
While semi-automatic rifles are widely available, fully automatic weapons are not. You can still buy an automatic weapon, but their sale and ownership is highly regulated and exceptionally expensive.

OK
As though this isn't obvious:
What effect do the regulations have?
I guess you can answer that for yourself by asking :
How many mass shootings occur using those heavily regulated and hyper expensive fully automatic weapons?
My uneducated and un-researched guess would be "very few" if any. Bu they ... we are talking about the US of A. So I am probably wrong...
 
<------------grumpy old anti-war vet



War is bad enough, but police action interventionist policies are criminal murder by any other name.
What the USA did in Libya is a crime.
What the USA did/(are doing?) in Syria is a crime.
The politicians who ordered these crimes are war criminals and should be brought to trial.

I am not those men!

Who will do this? Who will bring a US president to trial on "war" crimes...( when it was just "a police action")?
(certainly not our NATO toadies?) Who will speak for the people of the nations that the US government has bombed and destroyed?

Will you?
Can you?
With the knowledge that what happens in one part of the world, however distant, can potentially come back and bite you in the ass in a matter of days, hours or minutes, can you think of any instances that intervention in the foreign affairs of other nations might be appropriate? Human rights, environmental degradation, national security, the age old practice of trying to save the heathen soul, are these not valid goals for intervention?
 
1- there are whole segments who do this
2- the 2A (I know it's a "law" and that you like to interpret them with your bias, but you will not find anything in said amendment that designates that weapons of any kind can't be owned and stored at home. interpret away...)
1) And? No one was actually discussing those individuals until you tried to change the subject by inserting them into the discussion.
2) The point was a suggestion. Are you unable to tell the difference?
unfortunately for you, I actually know Dr_Toad.
Why is that unfortunate for me?

I mean, what does that actually have to do with me or this discussion? Because you did not actually answer the question. You know him? That's great! I'm sure you get together, cook steaks over open fires and discuss what enemies deserve to be shot, perhaps. But you still didn't actually address what I said.
unfortunately for you, I am not ignoring the segment who uses target practice for effective force, etc
And yet you deliberately set out to change the subject away from all of those individuals to chase a fat red herring.
unfortunately for you, I also remember the context and reason sport target shooters were brought up in the first place:
While ignoring what it was I actually said.

You know, context. But that would require to post in good faith.

this means that shooters (no clarification on your part, so this applies to all shooters per your statement) target practice to kill.
this, specifically, ignores large segments of the population that only want to learn to sport target shoot, which only means killing concentric circles in a specific way to increase the assigned points in order to establish superiority over another competitor for recognition of hard work, training and skill.

the digression into this topic is because you irrationally judge others based upon your own fearful bias (called prejudice) and you wish to assign an emotional label to justify your argument and place a perceived negative attachment to anyone who would diverge from your opinion and beliefs
I would have assumed that what I said was pretty obvious. The only people who could have issues understanding who and what I meant would be if it was someone who was functionally stupid. Or someone who deliberately chose to troll. And I am fairly certain you are not functionally stupid.

Secondly, when responding to your digression or attempts to change the subject matter of the thread, it is not my or anyone else's fault when we try to drag you back into the actual discussion. You keep demanding that I am either fearful or biased or both. Which says a lot about you.

Do you need me to be fearful, TCS? Do you need me to feel biased in the sense of being biased because of a fear of guns? Because the only reason anyone could keep harping on that point would be if that is important to you. Is it? It's like your constant comments about my being emotional. Case in point:

Non. C'est comme si le fait de discuter avec une personne émotive et irrationnelle ne ferait qu'exacerber la situation.
It has become a bit of a pattern and a very interesting one at that.

Why do you need me to be fearful and emotional, TCS? And why do you make such arguments to me repeatedly, but to no one else in this thread, who are essentially arguing along the same lines as I am?

Because instead of actually addressing the points I am making, you seem more concerned in dodging the issue and going on and on about my being fearful and afraid and emotional and irrational. And you do that to me repeatedly and only me for the last 5+ pages. Why is that, TCS?

It's bad enough considering the whole Koresh argument you presented... at least I got a laugh out of that since you (again) completely ignore fact for your opinion and beliefs
It seems the point I was making missed you entirely.
so - what kind of fanatic would have chosen Waco as demonstrative of cults being selected for punishment while ignoring the fact that BATFE was investigating the stockpiling of illegal weapons??
... not weapons in general, but illegal weapons. Illegal specifically means :
Good grief! Koresh and his cult had been on Government radar for a very long time, even from before Koresh took over the head of that group and turned it into a cult. You see, Koresh had been accused and tried for attempted murder when he tried to shoot the son of the previous leader of that religious group and he was released due to a hung jury. Not only that, if the authorities really wanted to investigate Koresh and the group for the illegal weapons stash they were suspected of hoarding, not to mention the many maaany accusations of rape and child sexual abuse that came out of that compound, they would have picked Koresh up when he left the compound multiple times during the week the authorities were doing surveillance.

Does that make a bit more sense for you now?

and again, because the law is relevant in this case :
when any organization, religious group, cult, business, individual or family stockpiles illegal weapons, law enforcement has the right, should they present a warrant or have probable cause during a routine visit and/or health and welfare check, to search and detain individuals as well as seize illegal weapons. In point of fact, even if said weapons are not illegal, LEO's have the ability to seize said weapons to check them should there be probable cause presented during an investigation.

so, only someone who is either completely ignorant of the situation or has an agenda that is intentionally ignoring facts would use the BD's as an example in that case
By the time the authorities were getting close to execute the warrant, they they accused them of having a drug lab and being drug traffickers.

My point was that they were looking for every excuse to bring them down and they went with the easiest at the time.

There is plenty of evidence you're becoming far too emotional and irrational to continue conversing with, as noted by your inclusion of me into a derogatory attempt to troll while talking to Sculptor
Again with this demand that I am becoming emotional and irrational.
 
is that your version of trolling because I asked you to use source material from the only reporting agencies we have instead of randomly choosing an opinion article that articulates your moral argument while cherry-picking?
All I wanted to do was save time from extensive research - it's never stopped you from completely denying facts in the past, so why would you suddenly be offended, let alone actually abide by the request?
You did not ask. You demanded. And you pull this sort of rubbish to change the subject.

emotional and irrational statement made from fear and bias
And again!

I am the only person you keep doing this to and I am the only woman debating you in this thread on this subject matter. So what gives? Do you need me to be afraid and emotional? Does that make you feel strong when you keep attempting to silence me or invalidate my arguments in such a sexist way?
it's because of people like you that our country established the 2A

fascinating that you would choose to state this - supports the argument that you have an emotional bias and percieved moral superiority to others. I'm almost surprised you didn't continue that with some religious or corporal punishment to go along with the self-righteous posturing.
Awwweee, now who's being emotional..

what next?
are you going to tell everyone that I'm a heathen? That I don't care? That I want children to die?

which fanatical leftist rhetorical argument will you choose?
How about 'you are losing it'?

How about 'stick to the thread'?

Just because you can present a poll to support your beliefs doesn't mean you know jack sh*t about the local school or my grandkids...
Nor would I want to!

For example, you have been chest thumping your way through this thread, reminding us how your community is armed to the teeth and how this will apparently prevent a mass shooting or something along those lines, while you completely ignore the fact that your small rural community, which given your attitude and posting style, I would imagine is predominately white and a large portion of those gun owners are white and male, makes your community and local school more at risk of a mass shooting.

Not to mention your grandchildren are not the only children in the United States. What can only be described as a majority are concerned and many are fearful of a mass shooting in their school. No child should have such concerns. The poll, which you dismissed because hey 'not mah grandkids, y'all!', is looking at a cross section of all kids across the US.

That whole attack was to present the farcical argument that I am not aware of my grandkids just because you really, really want to believe that you know more about my local area than I do and you want to present the talking points of your ideology as fact because my reply directly contradicted your statement. Again: the digression into this topic is because you irrationally judge others based upon your own fearful bias (called prejudice) and you wish to assign an emotional label to justify your argument and place a percieved negative attachment to anyone who would diverge from your opinion and beliefs.
La vérité blesse?
Are you done? Or do you need a bit more time?

I never claimed to know about your well armed community nor do I want to, because if your neighbours are remotely like you, I'm sure you're all an absolute hoot if one is drunk and stoned enough to hear colours to drone you all out.

What I stated, quite clearly, that many children in your country are fearful and I suggested that you perhaps speak to your kids and grandchildren and actually ask them (given how you are currently having a bit of a tanty, I suspect you're the type of fellow that one just nods at to avoid the a) whining, b) ranting, c) inane sexism to prove your masculinity and being top dog as we are seeing you in all of your glory there. And perhaps your grandchildren and children are completely different to what the majority feel, which would mean they fall within the majority in your country who are not concerned. And that is entirely normal as well.
 
While semi-automatic rifles are widely available, fully automatic weapons are not. You can still buy an automatic weapon, but their sale and ownership is highly regulated and exceptionally expensive.

OK
As though this isn't obvious:
What effect do the regulations have?
It pushes people to use alternatives for mass murder, like bump stocks.
 
It pushes people to use alternatives for mass murder, like bump stocks.
which is only confirmation that the heavy regulation of fully automatic weapons does successfully impact on their use in mass shootings.

The question is why the regulation on fully automatic weapons (and other) is relatively successful and could that success be extended to other types of weapons?

58 people were shot dead during the Vegas massacre by Paddock.
How many would have died if he had legal access to fully automatic weapons and other heavily regulated weapons is any ones guess but the kill count would most likely be a lot more, is mine.
Money wasn't his problem, access was. He could have acquired a rocket launcher if it was legally available to him.
Thus proving that heavy regulation on weapons can and does indeed impact on casualty numbers.

Perhaps some one would like to compare a fully auto weapon with a bump stock modified one,
in terms of accuracy, mag size, caliber etc.
 
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With the knowledge that what happens in one part of the world, however distant, can potentially come back and bite you in the ass in a matter of days, hours or minutes, can you think of any instances that intervention in the foreign affairs of other nations might be appropriate? Human rights, environmental degradation, national security, the age old practice of trying to save the heathen soul, are these not valid goals for intervention?

Perhaps a re-evaluation is in order?
It seems that at it's core, killing is either ok or not ok?
Does it really matter if done by an individual or a state?
 
It changes the nature of any claims of self defense.
It affects the prospects of reconciliation or atonement.
It affects any consideration of motive.

changes
affects
and affects

ok how and why and to what purpose?

........................................
more precisely, when is killing ok?
 
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