obviously we think it's wrong to harm anyone for being gay, not just this woman, or we wouldn't be complaining in the first place
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Corrective Rape
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
obviously we think it's wrong to harm anyone for being gay, not just this woman, or we wouldn't be complaining in the first place
"We" do? Who's this "we" of which you speak? ...because those South African men didn't seem to share your opinion, did they???? So, since you left them out of the "we", who else did you leave out?
I'm also curious how you think you can speak for all those "we" people? Did they elect you to speak for them?
I disagree. People around here complain about everything and anything. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they'd even complain if they were hung with a new rope!
Baron Max
Look at the other posts making the same point as me, such as
We are angry because these men committed a crime - a crime that is wrong no matter who your victim is.
Not because this woman was special and worth more than others.
No, that's you. You piss on threads just because you can. Go use your energy for something more productive, like saving kids from hunger and disease, or quit giving out to people in here.
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Four pages to show that y'all are angry because of one crime? ...even while millions of other crimes have been commited while you complained about one of them? And you think that's something worthwhile?
Baron Max
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A general consideration arising from the particular
Max, one of the longstanding hallmarks of your posts is that it taken together they have the cumulative effect of proposing that nobody should ever worry about or do anything other than eating, sleeping, shitting, occasionally reproducing, and dying.
Humans are animals; not all animals are humans. Human beings have selected over time in such a manner that the basic existence of a slug, while observably enough for the slug, is insufficient to sustain the human endeavor.
Yes, people respond to specific stimuli. Some of these responses are angry. And some of that anger is futile. But nature is not extraneous. If the capacity for abstract and remote responses to stimuli had no utilitarian purpose, the human species would be considerably different.
Individual events, while they are merely individual events, can become emblematic of a larger situation. What's one chick footballer, more or less? Or one dancer? In the War on Terror, the murder of Shabana—one among thousands—has become emblematic of the Taliban and what it stands for, much like the rape and murder of Eudy Simelane asserts much about the form and nature of South African cultural mores. The murder of Matthew Shepherd tells us something about the priorities of some Americans. In all these cases, the outcome is a chilling explanation of what is possible within the given parameters.
Because human beings are social creatures with a capacity for abstract and remote responses to diverse stimuli, we tend to see in these possibilities something for the larger society to consider. What occurs on the ends of the bell curve, and how the central body social responds tells us much about the health of any given society. For the individualist, an analogue might be immunization. Why get a shot? After all, you don't have polio. Or measles. Or mumps, rubella, diptheria, papilloma, or even the flu.
Socially, immunization has the effect of reducing the dangers of these diseases. By attending to what is possible, and taking certain measures to protect oneself against specific outcomes, one protects their own self and stability.
Likewise, by attending to potential corruption of the body social, human communities protect themselves and their stability.
Yes, certain things are bound to happen in society. We even account for this in the American justice system: Not all murders, for instance, are the same. A crime committed in the heat of passion is not exonerated; society generally—to a persuasive degree—agrees that no, you can't kill someone just for boffing your wife, but, yeah, we understand. So we treat it differently. Gangland murders are especially stupid. And we treat those differently. Psychotic murders, as well. The idea that the fact of someone's homosexuality is cause for people to conspire and plot to gang rape, beat, and then butcher someone for? Yes. That sets off alarm bells. This is something that sounds psychotic, but is drawn from contemporary cultural passions. (I don't buy the human rights campaigns' bureaucratic term "corrective rape"; this is vigilante hatred, intended as punishment, through and through.) People do sit up and take notice. (I mean, look at what people have come up with before: heavy metal is responsible for rapes, murders, and suicides? Rap is responsible for gang violence? What the hell was Tchaikovsky thinking? The 1812 Overture? No wonder the nineteenth century had so many damn wars!)
The mundanely sordid is enough for many, the petty jealousies of a failed marriage stuffed into the trunk of a car, a house robbery gone wrong, or another broken heart whose mouth said no but—apparently—eyes said yes. When you get a the nibbled-on remnants of cute, ethnic gay boys; or the black man dragged to death behind a truck; or the infant raped to death by her father; or ... the point is that eventually people do sit up and take notice.
And you see it yourself. There are a lot of people who think concern over the way women and homosexuals are treated is desperate exaggeration. But these sorts of things keep happening.
One thing I would also urge you to consider is the context of the issue in any given community. While, to be certain, you are far above such things, I would urge you to recall the oft-muttered outrages and bigotry against women and homosexuals that fuel many people's frustrations.
We are social creatures, Max. And there are implications in that context arising from situations such as this one. Civilization and society are not so distal to everyone as they are to you; people will inevitably find some investment of priority in these things.
Max, one of the longstanding hallmarks of your posts is that it taken together they have the cumulative effect of proposing that nobody should ever worry about or do anything other than eating, sleeping, shitting, occasionally reproducing, and dying.
Humans are animals; not all animals are humans. Human beings have selected over time in such a manner that the basic existence of a slug, while observably enough for the slug, is insufficient to sustain the human endeavor.
Yes, people respond to specific stimuli. Some of these responses are angry. And some of that anger is futile. But nature is not extraneous. If the capacity for abstract and remote responses to stimuli had no utilitarian purpose, the human species would be considerably different.
Individual events, while they are merely individual events, can become emblematic of a larger situation. What's one chick footballer, more or less? Or one dancer? In the War on Terror, the murder of Shabana—one among thousands—has become emblematic of the Taliban and what it stands for, much like the rape and murder of Eudy Simelane asserts much about the form and nature of South African cultural mores. The murder of Matthew Shepherd tells us something about the priorities of some Americans. In all these cases, the outcome is a chilling explanation of what is possible within the given parameters.
Because human beings are social creatures with a capacity for abstract and remote responses to diverse stimuli, we tend to see in these possibilities something for the larger society to consider. What occurs on the ends of the bell curve, and how the central body social responds tells us much about the health of any given society. For the individualist, an analogue might be immunization. Why get a shot? After all, you don't have polio. Or measles. Or mumps, rubella, diptheria, papilloma, or even the flu.
Socially, immunization has the effect of reducing the dangers of these diseases. By attending to what is possible, and taking certain measures to protect oneself against specific outcomes, one protects their own self and stability.
Likewise, by attending to potential corruption of the body social, human communities protect themselves and their stability.
Yes, certain things are bound to happen in society. We even account for this in the American justice system: Not all murders, for instance, are the same. A crime committed in the heat of passion is not exonerated; society generally—to a persuasive degree—agrees that no, you can't kill someone just for boffing your wife, but, yeah, we understand. So we treat it differently. Gangland murders are especially stupid. And we treat those differently. Psychotic murders, as well. The idea that the fact of someone's homosexuality is cause for people to conspire and plot to gang rape, beat, and then butcher someone for? Yes. That sets off alarm bells. This is something that sounds psychotic, but is drawn from contemporary cultural passions. (I don't buy the human rights campaigns' bureaucratic term "corrective rape"; this is vigilante hatred, intended as punishment, through and through.) People do sit up and take notice. (I mean, look at what people have come up with before: heavy metal is responsible for rapes, murders, and suicides? Rap is responsible for gang violence? What the hell was Tchaikovsky thinking? The 1812 Overture? No wonder the nineteenth century had so many damn wars!)
The mundanely sordid is enough for many, the petty jealousies of a failed marriage stuffed into the trunk of a car, a house robbery gone wrong, or another broken heart whose mouth said no but—apparently—eyes said yes. When you get a the nibbled-on remnants of cute, ethnic gay boys; or the black man dragged to death behind a truck; or the infant raped to death by her father; or ... the point is that eventually people do sit up and take notice.
And you see it yourself. There are a lot of people who think concern over the way women and homosexuals are treated is desperate exaggeration. But these sorts of things keep happening.
One thing I would also urge you to consider is the context of the issue in any given community. While, to be certain, you are far above such things, I would urge you to recall the oft-muttered outrages and bigotry against women and homosexuals that fuel many people's frustrations.
We are social creatures, Max. And there are implications in that context arising from situations such as this one. Civilization and society are not so distal to everyone as they are to you; people will inevitably find some investment of priority in these things.
Mod Hat - Take a breath
Mod Hat — Take a breath, take a deep breath now
Alright. Enough. We get the point. A couple of obvious notes. To the one: C'mon ... please? I know, but so do you. To the other: If you keep baiting people like that, they're going to unload; a bit of good faith won't kill you.
Either way, enough.
So everyone take a deep breath and move forward.
Mod Hat — Take a breath, take a deep breath now
Alright. Enough. We get the point. A couple of obvious notes. To the one: C'mon ... please? I know, but so do you. To the other: If you keep baiting people like that, they're going to unload; a bit of good faith won't kill you.
Either way, enough.
So everyone take a deep breath and move forward.
No, that's not it, Tiassa. I try to show them that their worries or complains should NOT be taken out of the context of humanity as a whole.
If some people take one lousy murder and make it into a major issue, they're missing, and ultimately covering up, the fact that gazillions of murderers and killings occur every single day in the world. Even you, Tiassa, can see that.
And I'm trying to help them redirect that anger and frustration to the conditions at large ...not just one lousy murder out of gazillions of murders that occur every day.
I'm often shocked by how people respond when I make mention of how insignificant and decidedly misplaced their anger is over one little incident while completely ignoring the gazillions of similar incidents that occur daily. I've come to see that their displays of anger are actually directed at themselves or at humanity as a whole instead of at me. They are angry because they can't control their anger, and they're angry because they can see that there's nothing they can do about anything. Odd, huh?
And I try to help them see that larger society of which they claim to be happy to be a part of ....yet seemingly miss it badly by expressing such anger and frustration over one lousy little incident. People need to realize that the humanity to which they belong ....is violent and deadly and vicious and lying and ...., and sucks giant donkey dicks!
People keep saying that, Tiassa, but look around ...the world is full of those "social creatures" that you so love, and they're killing, raping, lying, stealing, thieving, conniving, cheating, hateful, bigoted, prejudicial, warring, bombing, ....., and all other manner of horrid things!
Social creatures? Naw, I don't think so. Humans are "social" only because of the laws and courts and cops that keep them toeing the line of what society considers ....decent behavior.
People need to see that, Tiassa. And I consider it my role and my duty to push it into their faces at every opportunity!
Baron Max
That might be possible, SAM, if the stupid bastards wouldn't waste so much time and anger and energy worrying over one lousy little incident. As it is, they miss the big picture completely by focusing their concerns too narrowly.
But that's okay, ....humans are all fucked up, and I think we all know it. Most just aren't willing to admit it.
Baron Max
Myself and others have already made the point that it is not just this one specific incident that was wrong, it is the crime of so called corrective rape in general. It is always wrong no matter who the victim is, or whether you rape 100 people or just one, and should be eradicated.
But you are choosing to keep ignoring this point, and put words in our mouths, insisting that we are angry ONLY about this one specific crime.
Now I'm just going to accept that you're talking crap, and ignore you unless by some miracle you say something reasonable.
Simply because you are all fucked up baron, that doesn't mean that all humans are fucked up.
Misanthropy is such a black hole, hard to see into and out of, and hard to reach a helping hand far into. Improving humanity from inside ourselves is only natural, but self-hatred is terrified of that, and wants to deny the obvious.