Corona Virus 2019-nCoV

[paddoboy]

Fearing the rampant imaginations of those less retrained should not inhibit good discussion. It is like this forum discussion is shut down because it fears that some members can not deal with the hypothetical...
Virologists and evolutionists are NOT stupid. They are some of the brightest people on the planet...
Should they cease to explore the hypothetical then science no longer has a future.
But to shut discussion down out of fear is much worse than tolerating others some times .. uhm .. enthusiastic imaginings.

No one fears imagination...no one fears the hypothetical. But when someone has a mind so open, and when someone purports to have not just a hypothetical, but a claim of certainty, then that sort of stuff, and that sort of nonsense, needs to be put down with as much vigour as possible. Do you support Trump and his many claims re the coronavirus?

River may have certain challenges to deal with but at least he is not as abusive and "violent" as many posters here at sciforums and I have found over the years, that River has offered some rather intriguing insights that can not be gained by more traditional conservative methods.

Sure, he only puts down all mainstream scientists as incalcitrant, then claims his own nonsense as certain, then when shown to be in error, simply keeps on with his nonsensical claims. But anyway, please show me what incredible insights river has offered, that over rides that which is generally accepted by the more conservative methods or opinions....I'm waiting, and of course, don't forget the evidence supporting that, something which river has never done.

You only have to read Sarkus post #1771 as a classic example of ego-centric envy attempting to shut down any discussion.

Of course the notion of evolutionary leap frog has been discussed before..by many erudite scientists..because unlike many members here at sciforums they do not fear dealing with the hypothetical.

I'm really not interested in what Sarkus has said.This is first and foremost a science forum, and the scientific method prevails. Evidence is required by any and all claims...not conspiracy nonsense...not silly unsupported claims of being able to think outside the box...not simply some exotic, crazy, irrational notion, that mainstream traditional thinking is automatically wrong...Yes, river has serious issues most certainly.
That's why he is banned from the sciences.

 

[Quantum Quack]

No one fears imagination...no one fears the hypothetical. But when someone has a mind so open, and when someone purports to have not just a hypothetical, but a claim of certainty, then that sort of stuff, and that sort of nonsense, needs to be put down with as much vigour as possible. Do you support Trump and his many claims re the coronavirus?

I think it was Plato or was it his student, that suggested the dialectic method...Unfortunately the method has an extreme when others refuse to entertain sometimes radical ideas. That extreme forces the proposer to take a overly confident position.
In an abusive environment this is bound to happen. No one likes being shut down..and will only end up badly...and it can be handled better...
Example:
* "The Earth is flat!"

"If hypothetically the Earth is flat then it either has a land mass that is infinite or the oceans would drain off. Where do you propose the water goes to and how is it replenished?​

*"It is not important.
The Earth is flat!"

"OK, I believe you believe what you believe"
"Do you know what I believe?"
​

To avoid conflict/war:

Universal declaration of Human rights
Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.​

As for Trump... bah... I am not going to waste my time feeding his beast.
His entire life time has been spent feeding on other peoples outrage...it is about the only thing he has been successful at... generating outrage.

Sure, he only puts down all mainstream scientists as incalcitrant, then claims his own nonsense as certain, then when shown to be in error, simply keeps on with his nonsensical claims. But anyway, please show me what incredible insights river has offered, that over rides that which is generally accepted by the more conservative methods or opinions....I'm waiting, and of course, don't forget the evidence supporting that, something which river has never done.

The key word in the above is "incredible".
I didn't post "incredible" I posted "intriguing"...a big difference...

It is a bit like the difference between discussing "jail time" ( criminal ) and civil action ( suing) when a doctor is negligent...leading to the death of one of his patients. ( re: Billvon's earlier post)

But...
Granted it is challenging, is it not to keep our egos in check and actually look at who has the problem....them or us?
The poster could make the most absurd claims but it is how you react to them that matters and not the apparent absurdity of the claim. IMO

I'm really not interested in what Sarkus has said.This is first and foremost a science forum, and the scientific method prevails. Evidence is required by any and all claims...not conspiracy nonsense...not silly unsupported claims of being able to think outside the box...not simply some exotic, crazy, irrational notion, that mainstream traditional thinking is automatically wrong...Yes, river has serious issues most certainly.

Sure....and over the years he has improved somewhat as with a number of other challenged members..

This problem that you are highlighting is borne I feel, from a deep understanding that science and religion has failed mankind terribly.
We are on the cusp of an apocalypse with less than 10 years to do something..and sure it is not sciences fault that we are not doing what we need to do...but one that is part of the human dilemma generally but it was the science part of humanity that lead the way...

So science is wide open to criticism by those who are extremely anxious about repeating failures of the past and are scrambling in the attempt to do something, something they are not necessarily qualified to do...
Checking the global paranoia /hysteria is not easy and it is going to get a lot harder in the future...

A forum that can not handle the hypothetical is not a science forum and discussion is not possible.

All the above falls into that category of hypothesis and speculation and is a part of healthy discussion...IMO

 

[Seattle]

(delete)

 

[Quantum Quack]

Anyway , they layout of the book , " The Evolution and Emergence of RNA Viruses "

The begining .

1 Introduction

1.1 Why study RNA virus evolution ?
1.1.1 Ways to study viral evolution
1.1.2 The scope of this book

1.2 RNA viruses and evolutionary biology
1.2.1 The RNA virus world

1.3 The basis of viral biology
1.3.1 A cursory history of virology
1.3.2 Virology 101
1.3.3 Exploring the virosphere

well..
you are starting to know what you do not know... now that is a start in the right direction...
best of luck!

 

[river]

A forum that can not handle the hypothetical is not a science forum and discussion is not possible.

All the above falls into that category of hypothesis and speculation and is a part of healthy discussion...IMO

INDEED on both thoughts , QQ .

 

[river]

well..
you are starting to know what you do not know... now that is a start in the right direction...
best of luck!

Are you starting to learn what you don't know QQ ?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Are you starting to learn what you don't know QQ ?

the short answer is... heck ... there is no short answer... lol
Philosophically:
Years ago, I asked myself the question:
What do I know and what do I believe...?
I found the only answer that I could come up with is:
"I know nothing, but believe in everything"
and thus Zero Point Theory was borne...(2006 ish)

Belief is a part of ego (deception, dualism) and knowledge (truth, non-duality) is non-existent.

So essentially every "thing" is unknown.

When you eventually get down to read the book you mention consider that all it contains is qualified belief. (aka: Science)

Belief is just a stepping stone on a path towards a knowledge (Truth) that doesn't exist...

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Are you starting to learn what you don't know QQ ?

the short answer is... heck ... there is no short answer... lol
Philosophically:
Years ago, I asked myself the question:
What do I know and what do I believe...?
I found the only answer that I could come up with is:
"I know nothing, but believe in everything"
and thus Zero Point Theory was borne...(2006 ish)

Belief is a part of ego (deception, dualism) and knowledge (truth, non-duality) is non-existent.

So essentially every "thing" is unknown.

Highlighted

And how has it worked out so far ? This Theory .

 

[Quantum Quack]

Highlighted

And how has it worked out so far ? This Theory .

It doesn't exist...lol

The understanding it provided is irrelevant to what faces the world today so I simply put is aside...but I am still looking for evidence to support some of it's more physical predictions...
regarding Sag. A and a few other anomalies.

 

[paddoboy]

That extreme forces the proposer to take a overly confident position.
In an abusive environment this is bound to happen. No one likes being shut down..and will only end up badly...and it can be handled better...

Sure, no onel likes being shutdown, even when shutdown by the scientific method and mountains of observational and experimental evidence. To rail against such observational reality as river always does, amounts to childish stubborness and stupidity. Then to continue to insult the giants of the past on which shoulders we all stand, is even more stupid to an nth degree...sickness? Perhaps...

* "The Earth is flat!"

"OK, I believe you believe what you believe"
"Do you know what I believe?"​

To avoid conflict/war:

This is a science forum...The possibility of youngins and those not familiar with science, being polluted with impossible crazy claims, needs to be objected to in the strongest possible terms. That's again why river was banished to the fringes. But even there, he chooses to practise dishonesty, in raising issues in the sciences, for no other reason then to express his claim, unsupported, and unevidenced as that maybe.
​

The key word in the above is "incredible".
I didn't post "incredible" I posted "intriguing"...a big difference...

No actually incredible...incredibly stupid! Like atomic wars on Mars between Alien species...like refusal to accept gravitational lensing, despite numerous observational photos and images of such taking place...I really could go on and on and on and on.

I won't say much more other then that none of us, none of us could ever do without science. It is the basic of human progress, technology and even existence...
Science is always a discipline in eternal progress...we have gone from Galilleo, to Newton, to Einstein, to Feynman, to Krauss and Carroll. Each one progresses on the shoulders of the previous generation, and the basis of the scientific methodology...each one also progresses on the back of knowing what falls outside the scientific methodology, and obviously invalidity...that's where river lives, that's where he chooses to grovel. That's OK with me, as in time, his nonsense will forever be lost in cyber space and oblivion, while science as dictated by the scientific methodology, will live on, changing when necessary and continued progress.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I won't say much more other then that none of us, none of us could ever do without science. It is the basic of human progress, technology and even existence...
Science is always a discipline in eternal progress...we have gone from Galilleo, to Newton, to Einstein, to Feynman, to Krauss and Carroll. Each one progresses on the shoulders of the previous generation, and the basis of the scientific methodology...each one also progresses on the back of knowing what falls outside the scientific methodology, and obviously invalidity

well stated...
we just need to learn how to terra-form our own planet properly ( sustainably, symbiotically etc) and we will be just fine....

 

[paddoboy]

.but I am still looking for evidence to support some of it's more physical predictions...
regarding Sag. A and a few other anomalies.

What predictions of Sag A are you on about?
I'll discuss in the sciences if needed.

 

[Quantum Quack]

What predictions of Sag A are you on about?
I'll discuss in the sciences if needed.

you mean , you will discuss the currently held scientific belief if needed..
Not here... and no I wont entertain discussing it as there are a few fundamental issues that would have to be resolved first..and that is not likely at this forum.
But... I appreciate your offer...and I am aware of the recent developments in the Sag A anomaly.
Maybe sometime in the future when a few missing pieces to the puzzle are resolved ...

..Regarding gravitational lensing, Baily's beads is another...

 

[paddoboy]

you mean , you will discuss the currently held scientific belief if needed..

This anomaly I believe is simply due to a passing star or some part of matter/energy falling into the BH.

 

[paddoboy]

Let's also realize before anyone takes any notice of river, that he also was one of these total nuts that spoke out against vaccines....in line with the tripe preached by anti vaxxers!!!
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/all-vaccines-are-contaminated.161132/

 

[paddoboy]

Let's also realize before anyone takes any notice of river, that he also was one of these total nuts that spoke out against vaccines....in line with the tripe preached by anti vaxxers!!!
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/all-vaccines-are-contaminated.161132/

Actually, I believe this was one of the funniest threads I have come across...river's ignorance in it, is near as amazing as him not knowing that the Moon rotates on its axis....
Admittedly, I did have to think about the "Dihydrogen monoxide" name, but quickly after recalling the most basic of chemistry lessons in primary school, it dawned on me in about 9 seconds flat...... Anyway river really showed his "merits" to their fullest, and fell hook line and sinker, just as he does for any anti mainstream, pseudoscience crap that he comes across.....remember the war on Mars between Alien species?
Anyway even when it was revealed to him in post 41, he still appeared ignorant...the actual post says it better then I.....

"Dihydrogen monoxide

So, to summarize River's stance:
Dihydrogen monoxide

• is Irresponsible , and criminal really,
• should be banned,
• should be eliminated.

But, most importantly we should be informed.

Yes, informed.

River:

Is Dihydrogen Monoxide Dangerous?
"...even the most innocuous of substances can be made to sound like a dangerous threat to human life."
“dihydrogen monoxide” — another name for that life-giving substance we identify as H2O ... or more commonly, 'water'”
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dangers-dihydrogen-monoxide/

Yes, River, with your diligence in keeping a watch for Dangerous Things That Big Pharma And The Government Are Contaminating Our Products With - you have just called for the banning, elimination and criminalization of ... water.

And, astonishingly, despite every attempt we made to clue you in, you never caught on, or even bothered to do more than Google 'DHMO'.


There's a very big lesson here.

Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt


Your anti-vax ideas (as well as your "ancient aliens" ideas and your "spin causes gravity" ideas) are based in ignorance and bandwagon-jumping: if someone says something loud enough and long enough, at least some fools will believe it.

That's exactly what you did here with DHMO. You jumped on a bandwagon after a single Google search. You are not informed.

Take some time and think about why you think you know what you know, and why a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous and destructive thing."

post 41 in that same link if anyone doubts the stupidity exhibited by river and some turkey called gamelord.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Actually, I believe this was one of the funniest threads I have come across...river's ignorance in it, is near as amazing as him not knowing that the Moon rotates on its axis....
Admittedly, I did have to think about the "Dihydrogen monoxide" name, but quickly after recalling the most basic of chemistry lessons in primary school, it dawned on me in about 9 seconds flat...... Anyway river really showed his "merits" to their fullest, and fell hook line and sinker, just as he does for any anti mainstream, pseudoscience crap that he comes across.....remember the war on Mars between Alien species?
Anyway even when it was revealed to him in post 41, he still appeared ignorant...the actual post says it better then I.....

post 41 in that same link if anyone doubts the stupidity exhibited by river and some turkey called gamelord.

Just some thoughts as I am tired of video gaming and need a break...

I don't think it is stupidity...nor do I like the term "mental health". If you are capable of making use of internet forums like this one you are definitely not stupid. As to the term mental health , I prefer "emotional health", as it speaks more to the nature of the aberrations caused by paranoia better. (premise: Most "mental health" issues are founded on intense and deep anxieties -aka emotions, of a paranoid or irrational nature)

Let's also realize before anyone takes any notice of river,

So your main concern is that paranoia is contagious? If so you are quite correct in that assessment. ( re: Mass hysteria) Emotionally unhealthy people tend to feed/trigger emotionally unhealthy people..
---
As to:
Vaccinations:
Vaccinations that are distributed globally are generally tested before release into the public domain. If adulterated they would be found out and conclusive evidence presented.
Dihydrogen monoxide
Believing the April fools prank about Dihydrogen monoxide when experiencing great concern and associated anxiety about adulterated products ( paranoia), is and would be easy to do. Especially if in the heat of the moment and using google with out proper checking.
Google Dihydrogen monoxide and the first 5 listings will tell you that it is cancerous and potentially lethal. (which of course is terribly misleading)
Also I might add Dihydrogen monoxide is not typically drinking water, as H2O in pure form is not all that healthy. ( especially if stored for long periods - especially in plastic containers )_
But...
Emotional health issues that drive paranoia will turn it into a monster...that makes people suspicious of intent and motive, among other things...
A bit like the UK's, Russia, USA reluctance to go to lock down early enough to save thousands of lives when most people would have realized that a lock down was inevitable anyhow. Perhaps because of the paranoia surrounding the economic damage - that was inevitable also..trying to hedge their bets etc...
As Brazil is also finding out a proper lock down done ASAP saves both economies and people.
See Australia and New Zealand as examples of relative success..
Don't get me wrong, both nations have taken a big hit also...but it could have been far, far, worse...
The date we shut our borders to international travelers without strict quarantine provisioning was the day we started to make head way. Shutting our internal boarders a little later further improved management of this plague..
----
Playing games on peoples paranoia as Trump does serves no one well...( it is also one of humanities greatest hobbies...so to speak..and a significant part of humor generally)
----
In a state of heightened anxiety over COVID, Racism, trade wars, Brexit etc the worlds population, generally, has performed surprisingly well IMO
but there is more to come...
Climate change and the next 10 years.... or so...will prove to be rather challenging...
(As Russia and Putin is starting to realise - aka current oil spill crisis)

 

[paddoboy]

See Australia and New Zealand as examples of relative success..
Don't get me wrong, both nations have taken a big hit also...but it could have been far, far, worse...

A large percentage of cases and deaths in Australia were a result of a cruise liner. At this time I believe it is now two weeks since we have had a community case...a couple from over seas arrivals which have all been isolated and lock down. NZ has done even better.

 

[Quantum Quack]

BTW Can a tidally locked body such as the moon truly be considered as rotating on it's axis?
Or is the rotation on axis a logical conclusion only..?
hmmm.... one to think on...

 

[Quantum Quack]

A large percentage of cases and deaths in Australia were a result of a cruise liner. At this time I believe it is now two weeks since we have had a community case...a couple from over seas arrivals which have all been isolated and lock down. NZ has done even better.

And as our marketing professional for a PM has played... we are now building a COVIDsafe economy... well ahead of most nations who are still playing "wack the mole".