Corona Virus 2019-nCoV

I'm not all sure that will be the outcome. If they re-elect Trump it could lead to civil war and the secession of some states. Mitch McConnell, the leader of the majority party in the Senate, is already talking of letting states go bankrupt, which basically signals the end of the union.
Don't encourage him. The states aren't going to secede, the U.S. isn't going to be a failed state, etc. QQ eats this stuff up though and he needs something to put on his white board.

Planning for those domed communities that he was working on took a turn for the worst when Covid 19 came along. Whether there is free will in a deterministic universe ran its coarse so let's not take everything away from him.
 
A history snippet about the Spanish flu:

Philadelphia’s response was too little, too late. Dr. Wilmer Krusen, director of Public Health and Charities for the city, insisted mounting fatalities were not the “Spanish flu,” but rather just the normal flu. So on September 18, the city went forward with a Liberty Loan parade attended by tens of thousands of Philadelphians, spreading the disease like wildfire. In just 10 days, over 1,000 Philadelphians were dead, with another 200,000 sick. Only then did the city close saloons and theaters. By March 1919, over 15,000 citizens of Philadelphia had lost their lives.

St. Louis, Missouri, was different: Schools and movie theaters closed and public gatherings were banned. Consequently, the peak mortality rate in St. Louis was just one-eighth of Philadelphia’s death rate during the peak of the pandemic.
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic

You would hope that he world had learned it's lessons... but apparently not...

3 waves; the second being the most deadly...
 
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I'm not all sure that will be the outcome. If they re-elect Trump it could lead to civil war and the secession of some states. Mitch McConnell, the leader of the majority party in the Senate, is already talking of letting states go bankrupt, which basically signals the end of the union.
Don't mind Seattle he thinks it's somehow funny to be a citizen of a nation that is the world leader in "How to maintain individual freedom during a pandemic" and demonstrate what happens when you do...

Washington:
12,753 CC +259 new (24 hour growth 2.03%)
711 CFR

10,260 active and contagious cases

Yeah ...funny hey?
 
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There is a huge danger, at the moment, of people who can't take in what is happening flailing around, looking for someone to blame, as if that will make any difference.

We see this most obviously with Trump: first the scare was a Democrat hoax, then he tried to get the G7 to rename the virus the "Wuhan virus", to make it easier for Americans to focus on blaming China instead of his own ineptitude, then it was the WHO, whose testing advice he ignored (Germany and Korea followed it).

However there is also a danger of people trying to blame capitalism, which is just as much off-target as Trump's ravings. The economic effect on the people, in the USA specifically, may be made worse by its comparative lack of social solidarity (systematically inflamed by Trump), its poor social security provision, its poor labour protection and its uniquely bad system of health insurance, which results in people who lose their job often also losing their health cover - in the middle of an epidemic. However none of these defects in US society are innate to capitalism, whether "late stage" or otherwise. They are political choices that have been made in one country, arguably out of undue respect for the power of the market to lead to good outcomes.
Agree, but I posted a few times that I’m not against capitalism. I make a good living and capitalism is partly why, rather late stage capitalism is more of my concern. When greed takes over a corporation and investors matter more than customers and employees, is an example of it.
 
Agree, but I posted a few times that I’m not against capitalism. I make a good living and capitalism is partly why, rather late stage capitalism is more of my concern. When greed takes over a corporation and investors matter more than customers and employees, is an example of it.

It isn't easy having any worth while discussion at this forum as members attempt to play ego games and deliberately distort the postings that genuine participants make.
That said,
I agree with you.
Extreme capitalism that exists in the USA will not tolerate something so "trivial" as this COVID pandemic, therefore the push away, or rejection of the necessary quarantining task ahead is constant and ultimately will be the undoing of that extreme capitalism.
USA society is ill- equipped to deal with the sort of destitution that is coming it's way.

If one is guided by the science and the data gained so far globally the USA will go on suffering major consequences until it either accepts that money, alone, isn't going to fix it, but actual citizen action in self quarantining will.
Assuming that a vaccine will not become available, the "greedy" pursuit of money instead of collective health not only breeds confusion in the population but further exasperates the economic disparity and how the USA can not support it's own population properly because of the constant fight over individual wealth and the loss of it.
So, while capitalism itself is not going to be responsible for the disaster that is unfolding in the USA the lack of collective focused infrastructure ( health, shelters, community food banks, minimum income security etc) will be.

The science tells us quite clearly that to get out of this mess certain things have to be done by the majority of the population ( at least 80% ) and if those things are not done the problem of economic chaos will be ongoing and ultimately disastrous to all citizens including the wealthy.
The COVID virus does not discriminate and those wealthy enough to temporarily escape the problem by sitting on a privately owned island, indifferent to the suffering going on will eventually have to face the consequences of their blatant sociopathic behavior.

So yes, I agree with you and the need for the USA to move towards a more humanitarian political /economic system (like Australia or Canada is ~que Seattle) will be one of the biggest lessons the USA will need to learn out of this tragedy.

====
Notes: The tragedy unfolding among the indigenous Indian Americans due to this sociopathic disparity is only now just starting to be mentioned in the local national media. (AU)
 
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Prove my point:
783 workers at a Smithfield Foods plant in South Dakota have tested positive for COVID-19 — and two have died. Now workers at another plant are suing, alleging its conditions put them at risk of infection.
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/24/8446...lege-conditions-put-them-at-risk-for-covid-19
Gross.

Americans could do without bacon for a while, tbh. Disgusting how they were offering bonuses to those who didn’t miss a day of work from April 1st to May 1st. These types of jobs don’t pay well so they’re basically tempting employees to show up for work, even if they’re sick. This company was deplorable before CV19, though. Look up their animal cruelty history.
 
Agree, but I posted a few times that I’m not against capitalism. I make a good living and capitalism is partly why, rather late stage capitalism is more of my concern. When greed takes over a corporation and investors matter more than customers and employees, is an example of it.
OK, thanks, I've looked up this term and see what you mean, I think:

"In modern usage, late capitalism often refers to a new mix of high-tech advances, the concentration of (speculative) financial capital, Post-Fordism, and a growing gap between rich and poor."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_capitalism

Perhaps this rather elastic concept ties in with what I was saying about US society placing more faith in markets to produce good outcomes than seems justified by the results on health, job security and social provision.

In fairness, it is not just the US, though it is worse there. In the UK we've been concerned for some years with the growth of what is sometimes called the "precariat": the growing proportion of society working in the "gig" economy with little or no security, sometimes on zero hours contracts etc. Uber argued in a 2016 court case that their drivers were self-employed and thus Uber had no employer's responsibilities towards them. The judge thought otherwise, I'm pleased to say. And there have been bust-ups over employment conditions for people working in delivery warehouses for on-line companies such as Amazon and Sports Direct.

The European approach to Covid-19 seems to be different from the US one, however. In Europe, employers have been encouraged by means of government subsidy to keep employees on the payroll rather than sacking them, while the business is unable to trade. From what I gather in the US they get sacked and Trump writes everyone a personally signed, derisory one-off cheque, in the hope they will vote for him in November out of gratitude. Unless I have got that last bit wrong.....:smile:
 
OK, thanks, I've looked up this term and see what you mean, I think:

"In modern usage, late capitalism often refers to a new mix of high-tech advances, the concentration of (speculative) financial capital, Post-Fordism, and a growing gap between rich and poor."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_capitalism

Perhaps this rather elastic concept ties in with what I was saying about US society placing more faith in markets to produce good outcomes than seems justified by the results on health, job security and social provision.

In fairness, it is not just the US, though it is worse there. In the UK we've been concerned for some years with the growth of what is sometimes called the "precariat": the growing proportion of society working in the "gig" economy with little or no security, sometimes on zero hours contracts etc. Uber argued in a 2016 court case that their drivers were self-employed and thus Uber had no employer's responsibilities towards them. The judge thought otherwise, I'm pleased to say. And there have been bust-ups over employment conditions for people working in delivery warehouses for on-line companies such as Amazon and Sports Direct.

The European approach to Covid-19 seems to be different from the US one, however. In Europe, employers have been encouraged by means of government subsidy to keep employees on the payroll rather than sacking them, while the business is unable to trade. From what I gather in the US they get sacked and Trump writes everyone a personally signed, derisory one-off cheque, in the hope they will vote for him in November out of gratitude. Unless I have got that last bit wrong.....:smile:
Lol Nah, I think you’ve got it right. ;)
 
In Europe, employers have been encouraged by means of government subsidy to keep employees on the payroll rather than sacking them, while the business is unable to trade.
In Australia too... the main idea politically, is to realise that the employee either receives an unemployment payment or a employment safeguard payment. Either way the employee will get paid a safety net payment. One keeps unemployment stats down the other doesn't.
It also has the effect of securing civil compliance with lock down requirements, minimizes the push back against the loss of freedoms and clearly demonstrates how serious the government is taking the situation.
Here is one USA unemployment payment assessment by CNBC:

106481107-158644768670420200408_avg_unemployment_benefits_mapv2-01.png
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-unemployment-benefits.html
This inflated payment is only available to July 31st 2020. After that payment is greatly reduced.
It is worth noting that employment insurance schemes are quite popular in the USA I believe.
 
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I'm sure it's better in Australia but there is unemployment benefits here (as you've noted) plus the extra 600/week until July which is essentially full payment for many of those affected.

There are some programs going to businesses to help keep them going, many of which are being criticized as not helping the employee, which is questionable.

So, I don't know that the end result is all that different but it's probably better in Australia but it's not like nothing is being done here.

Many of the people I know still have jobs and are working from home. One friend who is a doctor says she has been notified that they may get reduced hours if this continues though the summer. She is OK with that.

I think many people are OK as long at the 600/week extra benefit continues.
 
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In Australia too... the main idea politically, is to realise that the employee either receives an unemployment payment or a employment safeguard payment. Either way the employee will get paid a safety net payment. One keeps unemployment stats down the other doesn't.
It also has the effect of securing civil compliance with lock down requirements, minimizes the push back against the loss of freedoms and clearly demonstrates how serious the government is taking the situation.
Here is one USA unemployment payment assessment by CNBC:

View attachment 3306
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-unemployment-benefits.html
This inflated payment is only available to July 31st 2020. After that payment is greatly reduced.
It is worth noting that employment insurance schemes are quite popular in the USA I believe.
Keep in mind that many/most who are unemployed also live with someone else so that there is either another full paycheck or another boosted unemployment benefit check.
 
notes:
French authorities are researching the use of nicotine as a way of inhibiting infection...
Anti- body testing has not confirmed that immunity is conferred. ( this seriously impacts on the production of a successful vaccine (?) )
Disinfectant is definitely not recommended to be used intravenously or orally.. Trump claims he was being sarcastic, yet video proves that you can't get an education by buying it.
 
I'm sure it's better in Australia but there is unemployment benefits here (as you've noted) plus the extra 600/week until July which is essentially full payment for many of those affected.

There are some programs going to businesses to help keep them going, many of which are being criticized as not helping the employee, which is questionable.

So, I don't know that the end result is all that different but it's probably better in Australia but it's not like nothing is being done here.

Many of the people I know still have jobs and are working from home. One friend who is a doctor says she has been notified that they may get reduced hours if this continues though the summer. She is OK with that.

I think many people are OK as long at the 600/week extra benefit continues.
A key aspect of the European/Australian strategy is to maintain the hibernating employment of staff so that when the crisis stabilizes and the business can reopen they have a ready staff to do so.
In Australia they call this the "Job Keeper" program which pays hibernating employees a payment via the employers pay role. ( it is not considered as a social welfare payment)
This maintains the capacity to start up once the doors can be reopened. ( in theory)
Also it minimizes the time it would normally take to register for unemployment benefits to an over whelmed bureaucracy.
I think I got the above right..
 
A key aspect of the European/Australian strategy is to maintain the hibernating employment of staff so that when the crisis stabilizes and the business can reopen they have a ready staff to do so.
In Australia they call this the "Job Keeper" program which pays hibernating employees a payment via the employers pay role. ( it is not considered as a social welfare payment)
This maintains the capacity to start up once the doors can be reopened. ( in theory)
Also it minimizes the time it would normally take to register for unemployment benefits to an over whelmed bureaucracy.
I think I got the above right..
Some people aren't going to have a job with the same employer when this is all over. Some employers won't be around. In any event, I don't see a lot of wide-spread panic. I can see a few idiots (nationwide) on the news but locally or in talking to friends across the country I don't see any wide spread problems at this point.

It could change of course. The stock market is almost back to where it was before the crash, houses are still selling in my area, also in my area we are well on the downside of the curve. It peaked a few weeks ago and now we are about where we were a month ago.
 
Some people aren't going to have a job with the same employer when this is all over. Some employers won't be around. In any event, I don't see a lot of wide-spread panic. I can see a few idiots (nationwide) on the news but locally or in talking to friends across the country I don't see any wide spread problems at this point.

It could change of course. The stock market is almost back to where it was before the crash, houses are still selling in my area, also in my area we are well on the downside of the curve. It peaked a few weeks ago and now we are about where we were a month ago.
One of the problems is that there are way too many unknowns involved with this novel virus.
2nd wave?
Heard Immunity?
Acquired disability?
Vaccine?
Mutation?
What really happened in China? How many people are missing or vanished?
etc

As they were saying on the radio this morning... we simply do not know enough about this virus to form an objective position on what may or may not happen...
At the moment I am tending to believe that the only way to deal with this is elimination and not just mitigation and containment..
In a small nation with solid borders this is possible. In the USA I would think highly unlikely. Where that leaves you is any ones guess...
 
Employees generally take the least amount of risk. If times are good they get paid a certain salary. If things get a little tougher some get laid off (with unemployment benefits) and the rest generally keep the same salary.
Lower level employees generally take more risk than executive level, and far more than shareholders - who risk nothing but money they didn't immediately need anyway, after all.
Meanwhile, in the US, replacing employees with lower paid employees has been raised to a fine art.
Meanwhile, in the US, the failure of the Fed and several State governments to declare shutdowns etc has created large numbers of vulnerable employees - such as those who can't quit merely because their company is exposing them (and their families) to plague virus without protective gear, jacking their hours around, etc.
Our world has been surreal for 3 1/2 years now
More like forty years - or have you guys forgotten what life was like under Reagan, Bush, W, and the Republican Congresses whose majority was made by Rush Limbaugh?
Supply side economics is not a surreal joke from an absurdist theater production - it's been the basis of US economic policy since 1982.
The image of the President of the United States looking under his desk while joking about WMDs no one could find - good yucks all around - is from 16 years ago. That was around the time our comedian President had forbidden journalists to photograph the caskets arriving from Iraq,
- - -
I find myself wondering what Trump thinks he is doing
Continuing to do what made him President - why would he stop?
 
Lower level employees generally take more risk than executive level, and far more than shareholders - who risk nothing but money they didn't immediately need anyway, after all.

We're talking about financial risk so your statement is ridiculous of course.
 
Lower level employees generally take more risk than executive level
They take far less risk. If they do their jobs competently, they usually keep them. C-suite executives are canned if they don't deliver - because the BOD wants to see results.
 
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