Convincing your child to want to die

Is this fair to a child?


  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .
Oh, the irony. "Roman catholics" and "believes in natural healing practices traditional among some American tribes."

Parents get first shot at their kids. That is just how it is and that is unlikely to change. Most places you can "home school" but there are no standards of performance.

Having insular stand off religious nuts is probably a social safety valve. It gives people some one safe to hate and if something strikes the main group, there are backups cut off and possibly safe.

Ones too extreme weed themselves out like this or like the branch davidians.
 
takandjive, stateofmind

Now firstly i have no love for the AMA (the Australian Medical Association for the sake of clarity) and there are some real morons walking around with medical degrees.

However to implie that all that would be nessary is for a doc to stand up in court and say "he has a 5% chance without treatment and a 90% chance with, than you for your time we will take the kid for treatment now" is ignorance in the extreem (or stupidity of the judicury). Firstly in Australia at least the judges which work on the guardianship board have alot of medical knowlage compared to your adverage judge. They deal with these cases almost exclusivly (almost because the other roll of the court is in the care of people who do not have the capacity to handle there own affairs and med is just a part of it though a large part).

Further more not all med has a science backing which is a huge problem. For instance CPR was only recently clinically evaluated before which it relied exclusivly on one studie carried out years ago on monkeys. However the largest body of resurch is into cancer and cancer treatments and meta resurch through organisations like cochrane are freely avilable to everyone in most countries. This includes judges and the boys parents as well as the doctors. Through tiassa has only posted a news link rather than the court documentation im dam sure that the court was smart enough to require the doctors to go through the evidence for and against chemo vs radiation vs surgury vs a combination vs any other alternitives vs doing nothing BEFORE he\she made there decision.
 
oh and the fact that the kid is illiterate at 13 just shows what a fucked up system you live in. Yes parents in australia can home school however they MUST complie with the curriculam as set by the state education department and the kids must come up to an acceptable standed for there age group or the state can compulserally force them into schools.
 
The brutality of legal argumentation

I found this much. Unfortunately, it doesn't include Judge Rodenberg's decision, Calvin Johnson's argument on behalf of the parents, or the Brown County Attorney's two cents.

• "Final Argument by Phillip J. Ebert, attorney for Daniel Hauser". May 12, 2009. http://www.courts.state.mn.us/Documents/0/Public/Other/Hauser/Hauser_final_argument.pdf

• "The Guardian ad Litem's Final Argument and Memorandum of Law on Adjudication and Disposition of the CHIPS Petition". May 12, 2009. http://www.courts.state.mn.us/Documents/0/Public/Other/Hauser/GAL.pdf

I'll keep looking, but at the present, sleep is a necessity. Anyone so inclined is welcome to beat me to the punch on this.

• • •​

I should at least note my doubts about the good faith of Ebert's argument. He argues that the family faced "an unfair choice of two bad scenarios". Curiously, he describes holistic therapy as "believed to [be] effective by professionals in the medical field", while he is apparently unable to say the same of more conventional treatments such as chemotherapy and radiation. He also instructs the court to act as an appellate court in order to invoke a limited standard of review.

The Guardian ad Litem's argument is a remarkable document in itself. Rather than proposing the application of a different standard of consideration, the GAL simply quotes the law as it pertains to the court's considerations, reminds of the state's statutes regarding intervention, and asserts three counts justifying that intervention (where only one of fifteen standards must be met). And they're harsh charges: that Danial is without necessary care for his physical or mental health because the parents are unwilling to provide that care, that he is medically neglected (with which the court agreed), and that his "behavior, condition, or environment is such as to be injurious or dangerous to the child".

Where Ebert assailed the medical doctors' assessment of the conventional treatments for Stage IIB Hodgkin's Lymphoma, the GAL points out that even the Hauser's witnesses agreed with this.

The GAL also points out that "providing [Daniel] with vitamins, herbs, ionized water, and other dietary supplements" as treatment "fails as a matter of law", and even quotes that law.

Furthermore, the section considering the Hausers' religious assertions would be nearly entertaining were the stakes not so grim. It amounts to a dissection of the Hauser's rhetoric without ever questioning the validity of their beliefs. And the GAL cites precedent under Minnesota law in which parental religious objections have been deemed insufficient to forego treatment for a minor with a life-threatening but curable illness, and even quotes the United States Supreme Court: "The right to practice religion freely does not include the liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death".

And here's one more quote to knock your socks off: "The Fourteenth Amendment's protection allowing parents to choose how to raise their children does not, as matter of law or logic, extend to a parent's right to let their child die in the name of 'parental autonomy'."

Did I say dissection? I meant evisceration. Point after point, the GAL drives home the problems with the Hausers' arguments; by comparison, either Daniel's attorney knew damn well they weren't gong to win, or else he needs to be hauled off on a malpractice claim. Where the GAL's argument, even written in fairly simple language, is heavy and consistent, Ebert's final argument was, by comparison, deathly anemic.

And one other thing, because at some point, the GAL's thrashing of attorney Ebert becomes somewhat tedious: Daniel is not simply "functionally illiterate". He is wholly and entirely illiterate: "He was not able to read the affidavit he supposedly affirmed, and his teacher stated he could not recognize the sight word 'the'."

That's right. The kid apparently can't read the word "the". The second half of page 16, and the first half of page 17 (pp. 18-19 of facsimile package) read like a nightmare.

This case is disastrous. The GAL threw everything at the court, and if we look hard enough, I'm sure we'll find the broken remains of a kitchen sink. The later pages dealing specifically with Daniel's religious outlook are the kind of thing that leaves one holding their head in their hands and murmuring, "This isn't happening. This isn't happening."

Oh, hey. I found the kitchen sink. It's on page 20, section III, C.

The disparity between the final arguments is very nearly shocking.
 
Tiassa said:
So the question: Is it fair (ethical, moral, just) to raise a child to such extreme standards?

FUCK NO!.
No matter what argument baron max comes up with . NO. I have to go with the tyranny of the majority with this one, I don't care if it leads to a totalitarian government, in no way are children to be denied the tools to survive in this world, including chemotherapy.
 
I think it's a sticky issue because of his age. While doctors may want to help, I also think they should leave people alone if a person tells them too. They wanted to cut my grandfather's leg off and it probably would have prolonged his life a year or two, but he told them to leave him alone. All he wanted was to die at home. I think simple wishes like these are better respected.

It's a 13 year old with incorrect information.
I think his wishes are not his own.
 
He should be given genuine information, then be left to make his own choice.

I know he's 13, but it's his bloodstream, his body, him who has to undergo the chemo.
 
i think the american indian kid should be able to choos how he goes out. not you f'ng bigoted dictators.
 
He should be given genuine information, then be left to make his own choice.

I know he's 13, but it's his bloodstream, his body, him who has to undergo the chemo.

The boy can't even read the word 'the'. His parents have told him that chemo is poison.
Of course he's gonna ask to stop chemo so that he can take herbs.
 
doesnt matter orleander. we dont know the whole situation here and how long this kid has been sick for, at 13 he could have been sick for his whole life.
 
doesnt matter orleander. we dont know the whole situation here and how long this kid has been sick for, at 13 he could have been sick for his whole life.

Stopping your child from having the proper education to read is CHILD NEGLECT, which is a form of abuse. We generally don't let abusers persuade children.
 
yes, he's had untreated cancer for 13 years. LMAO
are you drinking???

i am never drunk when i post here. except for maybe one time about 2 years ago.:D

it is very possible he could have been sick for his whole life or even half of it and that would be about 6 years old which is right around the time kids start to read.

dont ever underestimate these things because i had a cousin who was sick for years and tbh i dont even want to go into how bad cancer gets but she had the best health care anyone can ever have.

it is just funny how people support the medical industry and drug companies when it suits them. i always support them but people have rights as well.
 
i am never drunk when i post here. except for maybe one time about 2 years ago.:D

it is very possible he could have been sick for his whole life or even half of it and that would be about 6 years old which is right around the time kids start to read....

you have lost your mind. That makes no sense. He was home schooled for 13 yrs and can't even read 'the' and you think its because he may have been sick??? Sick kids learn to read!
 
perhaps this is a language problem here.

some kids are very sick at a very young age AND their disease prohibits them from doing things that others can do because of pain or being tired all the time etc. the judge let the kid stay with the parents because they love him more than anyone would. it is very possible that the parents knew this kids time was limited.
 
perhaps this is a language problem here.

some kids are very sick at a very young age AND their disease prohibits them from doing things that others can do because of pain or being tired all the time etc. the judge let the kid stay with the parents because they love him more than anyone would. it is very possible that the parents knew this kids time was limited.

:crazy: pure fantasy John
 
The way I tend to think about it, the first principal is:

"We have individual autonomy."

It is good and right that we be ffree to make our own choices, even if the ones we may will cause us harm. For example, were I to be shot with a gun, I can refuse to be treated for it, even if the result is bleeding to death.

In some cases, the parents are appointed to act on behalf of a child because the child lacks capacity to make the decision for the child when the child lacks the legal and philosophoical sophistication to act for itself. This is then extrapolated to cover all manner of people who lack capacity (the mentally ill, for example).

In this case, it seems, the judge overruled the parents *and* the child's wishes, suggesting very strongly that the judge believes are insufficiently ratuional to make the decision. The judge evidently did not deem them to be a threat to themselves, as he did not lock them up, but his ruling suggests to me that he could lock them up for fear they are presenting hard to themselves. If their judgement is sufficiently unimpaied that they cannot be prevented from harming themselves in such a manner, then I fail to see why they should be allowed to let themselves come to harm. Eithe rthey have capacity to make the call or they don't. I do not see that the person form whom the call is being made should matter in the case of parents who want their son to live.

Also consider that case law is cumulative. The decision is this case is precedent in the next. If these parents are not allowed to make medical decisions on behalf of a 13-year old (and seeiming rational, if poorly educated) boy, then in what other circumstances can a parent's decision be ignored? I would suggest that the answer to that question is *not* any time the child's life is in great risk (and it is certainly not that the illiterate lose such rights), or else pregnant women should never be allowed to have abortions. In those cases, the capacity of fetus is certainly less than the boy here, and the chance (actually, hope) is death is nearly 100%.

I am happy with the result in this case, so long as it is of no precedential value for any future cases that may come up.
 
the judge let the kid stay with the parents because they love him more than anyone would. it is very possible that the parents knew this kids time was limited.

I've got more than a few doubts about that statement, John 99: How can anyone suggest that the kids parents love him more than anyone could, when they either can't be bothered teaching him the very basics of education--or worse, deliberately mis-school him and indocrinate him into their crap mind-set. The old Jesuit rule applies here--'give me the child until 7, etc etc. So the problem of getting the kid to think for himself at this age are going to be horrendous. You could look at it from the brutally pragmatic POV--these dorks are out to win the Darwin Award by removing themselves from the gene pool, by allowing their child to die...the question here cuts to the root of the argument about personal space, doesn't it? How much personal freedom should individuals be allowed to exercise before the state steps in and says, 'hey you lot, you've gone too far here' and takes over to amend the situation? How much right do individuals have to defy the state's rules, particularly when a person's life is at stake as in this case--and especially when it's a member of the family?
 
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