Convincing your child to want to die

Is this fair to a child?


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Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
A Minnesota judge ruled on Friday that a family cannot withhold conventional medical treatment from their cancer-stricken son on religious grounds. Brown County District Judge John Rodenberg ordered that the parents of 13 year-old Daniel Hauser take their son in for updated imagery and select an oncologist to treat him by Tuesday.

If the tumor has not grown and if Daniel's prognosis is still as optimistic as doctors testified last week, then chemotherapy and possible radiation appear to be in Daniel's best interest, Rodenberg wrote.

"The State has successfully shown by clear and convincing evidence that continued chemotherapy is medically necessary," he wrote, adding he would not order chemotherapy if doctors find the cancer has advanced to a point where it is "too late."

If chemotherapy is ordered and the family refuses, the judge said, Daniel will be placed in temporary custody.

It was unclear how the medicine would be administered if the boy fights it, which he said he would do, according to his court testimony unsealed Friday.


(Associated Press)

The Hauser family is part of a small Roman Catholic sect called the Nemenhah Band, which is based in Missouri. The group believes in natural healing practices traditional among some American tribes.

A court-appointed attorney for Daniel, Philip Elbert, called the decision unfortunate.

"I feel it's a blow to families," he said Friday. "It marginalizes the decisions that parents face every day in regard to their children's medical care. It really affirms the role that big government is better at making our decisions for us."

The phone line at the Hauser home had a busy signal Friday.

[Calvin] Johnson, the parents' attorney, said everyone should be able to get medical care that follows their beliefs.

"The Hausers believe that the injection of chemotherapy into Danny Hauser amounts to an assault upon his body, and torture when it occurs over a long period of time," Johnson said Friday. "They believe that it is against the spiritual law to invade the consciousness of another person without their permission."


(ibid)

The family's attorneys are relying on common political talking points that overlook the apparent facts in the case. As of last week, doctors placed Daniel's survival chances at 90% with treatment, and 5% without. Colleen Hauser, Daniel's mother, testified in court that, "My son is not in any medical danger at this point". And Daniel himself believes he is not sick. No less than five doctors submitted testimony disagreeing with that argument.

Additionally, Daniel is already an elder in the Nemenhan band—although Rodenberg could not determine what that actually meant—and claims that he is a medicine man despite being unable to explain what that means under band teachings or even how he achieved that status.

At thirteen years of age, Daniel Hauser is also illiterate.

And these are all somewhat complicating circumstances. It is a hard decision whether or not to let a child elect to die for the sake of a delusion conditioned into his behavior by parents and other family authority figures. A judge in Washington state let a fourteen year-old die of cancer recently because he had adopted his aunt's religion, and this within a few minutes of one of the nation's premiere cancer research centers.

But the facts presented so far do seem to make this case exceptional. "I'd fight it," Daniel says of chemotherapy. Of doctors and nurses, "I'd punch them and I'd kick them." Frankly, that latter is something that my daughter would say, and she's only six. Additionally, Daniel believes that chemotherapy itself will kill him.

This isn't a question of putting one's faith in God. Judge Rodenberg has determined that Daniel Hauser "lacks the ability to give informed consent to medical procedures". Indeed, the boy seems ill-informed at least, if not deliberately misinformed. And despite the fact that nobody has ever taught the boy to read, but taken the time to convince him that lifesaving treatment will kill him outright—even the parents' lawyer is reinforcing that argument—everyone seems to think this family is just wonderful. Judge Rodenberg, in ruling that Daniel can at this time remain with his family, cited the parents' love for their child, and Dr. Bruce Bostrom, a pediatric oncologist fighting to save the boy's life said, "The bottom line is we just want to get through this, have him get better. And I'm happy the judge ruled he could stay with his family because they are wonderful people."

Now, I can understand the doctor wanting the kid with his family because that psychological security will bolster his chances for survival, but at what point do we stop and say, "Yeah, they're nice people and all, but shit, their kid is illiterate, thinks he's a fucking medicine man, and wants to die slowly and painfully! How did this happen?"

Anyone can say they mean well, from the parent who feeds their kid to obesity to the domestic abuser and beyond. In a society where people are so worried about fitting in that we're still arguing about whether gay people should raise kids because, well, there's plenty of bigots out there to alienate the children, or a judge might rule that it is unfair to not condition a child to believe in a religion at the stake of eternal torment, what is the logic behind raising a child so unable to commingle among his peers at large? Yes, one might suggest he is well-adjusted by Nemenhah standards, but isn't this sort of thing, to borrow a cliché, "limiting his options"? To the point of death?

So the question: Is it fair (ethical, moral, just) to raise a child to such extreme standards?

Yes, we know that people have the right to raise their kids according to nearly any twisted philosophical outlook. But is it fair?
____________________

Notes:

Associated Press. "Minn. Judge Rules Teen Must See Cancer Doctor". WCCO. May 15, 2009. WCCO.com. Accessed May 16, 2009. http://wcco.com/local/chemo.therapy.ordered.2.1010319.html
 
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I think everyone is entitled to choose for themselves without dogma being shoved down their throats. This kid needs some time away from his parents' influence to learn what chemotherapy really is, what it offers him, how it might harm him, and the degrees of the effects.

It's fair to give a human being a chance to see every side. I also think that if he refuses after a month of separation and thought on this, he has the right to refuse it.
 
this has come up time and again in medical ethics (to the point its actually one of the specific areas we study in ethics at uni) and goverment policy. the most ovious example is JW refusing there children blood transfusions. the goverment solution in australia has been to specify in the consent act and guardianship act that emergency treatment dont require consent and that if a parent refuses vital medical care for a child it becomes an urgent case for the guardianship board who are must act to preserve the life of the child.

it gets more complicated when a child (young teen generally) doesnt want care and the parents do (for instance when a child has terminal cancer). the doctors must determine the childs abilty to understand the decision and its implications to a level to give informed consent. aparently the womens and kids has to deal with these situations on a regular basis sadly
 
by the way, in regards to your poll. is what fair to the child? the courts decision to force treatment?
 
I'd think that the child should be protected within the laws that are available. As with Christian Scientists as well, they shouldn't let the parents decide the fate of their child without the child's permission through the court of law and the Judaical system. I just hope that all children will have the opportunity to have the courts decide their fate more so than what a religion tells their followers to do.
 
Has anyone here seen a child going through chemo? A co-worker had a son (pre-teen) go through it. He begged his parents to stop. He said he would rather die because it hurt so bad. Martin and his wife made the decision to keep having their son hurt so that they might save his life even though they had no guarantee it would.
Who here would torture their kid for a maybe?
 
Has anyone here seen a child going through chemo? A co-worker had a son (pre-teen) go through it. He begged his parents to stop. He said he would rather die because it hurt so bad. Martin and his wife made the decision to keep having their son hurt so that they might save his life even though they had no guarantee it would.
Who here would torture their kid for a maybe?
The doctors claim a 90% chance of a cure with treatment verses a 5% chance of survival without it. Those are pretty convincing statistics. I'd generally defer to parents, but I think the judge made the right decision here. Also, why in the hell is the kid illiterate at age 13?
 
The doctors claim a 90% chance of a cure with treatment verses a 5% chance of survival without it. Those are pretty convincing statistics. I'd generally defer to parents, but I think the judge made the right decision here. Also, why in the hell is the kid illiterate at age 13?

Oh I agree, the parents are wrong and I think they should be in jail.
If he is illiterate at 13, where has the state been before now?
 
I wonder what would happen if I went to a used car lot and asked the salesman if I should buy a car?

I hope the kid does fight the doctors who are trying to "help" him. No one should be forced to do anything against their will - especially on such a gamble as chemotherapy. Its success rates are pitiful, and with a heaping side of torture.

BTW, the thread title is completely misleading - the kids parents aren't convincing their child to commit suicide, liar.
 
I think it's a sticky issue because of his age. While doctors may want to help, I also think they should leave people alone if a person tells them too. They wanted to cut my grandfather's leg off and it probably would have prolonged his life a year or two, but he told them to leave him alone. All he wanted was to die at home. I think simple wishes like these are better respected.
 
I wonder what would happen if I went to a used car lot and asked the salesman if I should buy a car?

I hope the kid does fight the doctors who are trying to "help" him. No one should be forced to do anything against their will - especially on such a gamble as chemotherapy. Its success rates are pitiful, and with a heaping side of torture.

BTW, the thread title is completely misleading - the kids parents aren't convincing their child to commit suicide, liar.

Medical professionals have an ethical code. Used car salespeople do not. Do you honestly think people go into oncology, especially pediatric oncology, for the money?
 
Lol @ "all medical professionals have an ethical code"!!! At the end of the day they're both salespeople with knowledge of different parts.

Do you honestly think people go into oncology, especially pediatric oncology, for the money?

Why not? It's probably less competitive and just as high paying as other medical endeavors. Either way I don't know, I'm not a pediatric, nor do I know any personally, so I can't say.

It's also possible that these doctors think they're giving out good advice and are ignorant of the grave statistics of long-term success with chemotherapy (though this chance is very slim.) Any reasonable person looking at unbiased statistics would realize that chemotherapy has little to no better success rate than just riding it out, but riding it out doesn't come with severe pain.
 
Lol @ "all medical professionals have an ethical code"!!! At the end of the day they're both salespeople with knowledge of different parts.



Why not? It's probably less competitive and just as high paying as other medical endeavors. Either way I don't know, I'm not a pediatric, nor do I know any personally, so I can't say.

Hippocratic oath. And I never said "all." I was speaking in general terms. I can certainly speak for my own attraction to medicine and assure you I have NO desire in sales, nor does any med student/professional I know.

With oncology, you have a high mortality rate of patients. That can't be easy with children.

It's also possible that these doctors think they're giving out good advice and are ignorant of the grave statistics of long-term success with chemotherapy (though this chance is very slim.) Any reasonable person looking at unbiased statistics would realize that chemotherapy has little to no better success rate than just riding it out, but riding it out doesn't come with severe pain.

Really? Show me some studies, big boy, because it seems to me it's largely dependent on what type of cancer you're treating. You think doctors just want to hurt this boy to make money?
 
You implied "all."

More statistics than you could ever want are contained in the movie "Healing Cancer from the Inside Out" - you can even download it for free if you don't have any moral issues about that sort of thing.

I'm not going to reinvent the wheel here and go out of my way to appease your laziness. The statistics have already been gathered and condensed into this movie. If you're genuinely interested you'll check it out. If you're arguing just to argue then I suppose that's something you'll have to overcome and confront in yourself when the time is right.
 
You implied "all."

More statistics than you could ever want are contained in the movie "Healing Cancer from the Inside Out" - you can even download it for free if you don't have any moral issues about that sort of thing.

Because that movie has waaaaaaay less bias than AMA approved studies. :bugeye:

I'm not going to reinvent the wheel here and go out of my way to appease your laziness. The statistics have already been gathered and condensed into this movie. If you're genuinely interested you'll check it out. If you're arguing just to argue then I suppose that's something you'll have to overcome and confront in yourself when the time is right.

The burden of proof is on YOU. Got any actual studies approved by the AMA that support your point and not a bunch of hoodoo?
 
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This and that

Asguard said:

by the way, in regards to your poll. is what fair to the child? the courts decision to force treatment?

The question is clarified in the topic post:

So the question: Is it fair (ethical, moral, just) to raise a child to such extreme standards?

Yes, we know that people have the right to raise their kids according to nearly any twisted philosophical outlook. But is it fair?​

• • •​

StateOfMind said:

BTW, the thread title is completely misleading - the kids parents aren't convincing their child to commit suicide, liar.

It's the effective outcome. Were Daniel a competent adult capable of making this decision, he would be electing to die.

Daniel's parents have convinced him that (A) he is not sick, and (B) chemotherapy will kill him.

Treating him with herbs, vitamins, and ionized water is a huge gamble. The five percent chance of survival is essentially waiting on a miracle, asserting in effect that something about Daniel Hauser's genetic makeup will defeat the cancer on its own. Five percent is a generous statistic, and survival rates are usually framed in blocs of five years. Five out of one hundred patients with Daniel's diagnosis will survive five years or longer without treatment.

They might as well convince him to jump off a building, because not everyone who jumps off a building dies. And if we say they aren't convincing him to commit suicide in doing so, it is because they have convinced him that he will survive.

Self-imposed death is suicide, period. There is suicide by disease, suicide by cop, and suicide by immediate act, at least, just to remind that there is more than one way to bring about one's own death.

The route his parents have put him on would lead to his own death, and that they have lied to him and convinced him it is not so does not change that fact.

He would rather die than violate some obscure belief that he cannot even express to the court. Creating that circumstance in a child is convincing him to die.

A parent's first job, SoM, is to protect their child's life. Perhaps you think that an unjust imposition of duty, but I also understand that many parents treat their children as status symbols. There is something fundamentally unhealthy, both in terms of species and society, about that kind of exploitation.
 
Before I say anything further I want to say I'm sorry for my hostile tone to you and Tiassa - I really don't mean it. This is a frustrating topic to me and sometimes I get heated.

TakeandJive, it is erroneous to base your opinion only on whether or not the AMA approves something. The AMA is run by people who are susceptible to corruption and liable to make mistakes. I would recommend that you look at the statistics carefully on your own - chemotherapy is really no better than a placebo in most cancers (there are exceptions.)
 
We all have our touchy subjects. No hard feelings on my end; medical ethics are a sensitive issue. I agree chemo's far from perfect. You'll get no qualms from me there, nor that people are vulnerable to corruption. However, the AMA has been willing to admit mistakes in the past, and they're generally reliable. That doesn't make all other medical info a bunch of hoodoo, but it does warrant a doublecheck. I'll check out the film when I get time.
 
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