I seem to recall that LG already explained to you the meaning of performing religious rituals, and that they do have their place in the process of religious attainment.
We might have to ask him for a re-run.
Conversion to atheist Judaism?
- Thread starter S.A.M.
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I seem to recall that LG already explained to you the meaning of performing religious rituals, and that they do have their place in the process of religious attainment.
We might have to ask him for a re-run.
Yeah, but if an atheist is performing salat five times a day in the hope of getting religion, it would be getting it backwards, in my opinion.
If he called it zakat and did it after praying two rakats in the mosque for Eid, then yes. The word "sham" comes to mind. Or, "living a lie". Kinda like thinking wearing mascara and a bra makes a man into a good woman.
But that was not the situation.SAM said:
To return: we have someone fulfilling, by sincere belief in their value, the expectations of the community for a good man - except atheist.
You pity that man, as having no core? The belief in the value of the good, the true, the honest, and the kind, is shallow pretense unless it be accompanied by a belief in the local deity?
I pity him for his failure to face reality
An atheist who is praying five times a day to a God he does not believe in, is not much of an atheist, unfortunately, he's not much of a theist either.
To wit, he's not much of anything really.
In the end, it does not matter what I think of him, it matters more what he thinks of himself
Once again you find it necessary to change things.SAM said:
He si not praying to any gods. He doesn't believe in them. He prays, if he does, as people meditate or ritually pause in gratitude.
So abck to the situation, without any more additions of dishonesty or bad faith: we have someone who believes in the value of kindness, charity, community, all that stuff, and acts on those sincere beliefs according to the customs of the community. But atheistically.
This man has no core, in your opinion. These virtues, and all others, are empty, shallow, pretend, unless accompanied by a belief in the local deity.
Is that the case?
You don't "believe" in the values of charity or kindness. Just like you don't "believe" mascara makes you feel feminine. There is an underlying basis for the beliefs, without which the ritual practice is meaningless. The problem with atheists is they are just so used to wearing the mascara, they have forgotten that you need to be a woman for it to make you feel feminine.
I don't think so.
And frankly, if you questioned me in the tone that you write here, I would consider you hostile and lacking understanding. I would be unwilling to discuss my religious efforts with you, and I would likely become defensive and make various simplistic statements which you would criticize severely.
- Which is in roundabout what is happening in your perception of other people's religiosity anyway.
If you changed your attitude toward questioning these things, you might also notice different answers than you have been noticing so far.
Some people do. Maybe not theists, apparently - although I rather doubt that, off hand.SAM said:
This is really fascinating. Kindness, honesty, charity, is actually held to be fraudulent - against one's own nature and character, self-deceptive, a sham and a lie - unless it is based on belief in a deity.SAM said:
It is unnatural, in the theist's pov, for any but a sincere theist to be kind and honest and charitable. Any attempt to fake it, in the absence of the core theistic belief, is a pitiable self-deception.
No wonder all reasonable humans everywhere are held to have gods, by these kinds of theists. No wonder they fear the atheistic, regard them as threats - all their virtues are lies.
A more crippled, and crippling, view of human goodness and virtue is hard to imagine.
It appears that thinking this way about other people's beliefs (religious or otherwise) somehow makes you feel good or comfortable with yourself ...
And you think other people are not concerned about themselves?
Personally, if I was doing five rakats a day and didn't even believe in God, it would make pretty much every human goodness and virtue an exercise in futility.
Does it matter that you believe in kindness to be kind?
Does it matter that you believe in charity to be charitable?
Here are several translations and notes, Mark 9.24
New International Version (©1984)
Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
New Living Translation (©2007)
The father instantly cried out, "I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!"
English Standard Version (©2001)
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, "I do believe; help my unbelief."
International Standard Version (©2008)
With tears flowing, the child's father at once cried out, "I do believe! Help my unbelief!"
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The child's father cried out at once, "I believe! Help my lack of faith."
King James Bible
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
American King James Version
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help you my unbelief.
American Standard Version
Straightway the father of the child cried out, and said, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Bible in Basic English
Straight away the father of the child gave a cry, saying, I have faith; make my feeble faith stronger.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And immediately the father of the boy crying out, with tears said: I do believe, Lord: help my unbelief.
Darby Bible Translation
And immediately the father of the young child crying out said with tears, I believe, help mine unbelief.
English Revised Version
Straightway the father of the child cried out, and said, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Webster's Bible Translation
And immediately the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief.
Weymouth New Testament
Immediately the father cried out, "I do believe: strengthen my weak faith."
World English Bible
Immediately the father of the child cried out with tears, "I believe. Help my unbelief!"
Young's Literal Translation
and immediately the father of the child, having cried out, with tears said, 'I believe, sir; be helping mine unbelief.'
Geneva Study Bible
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
People's New Testament
9:24 Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief. The spark of faith has been kindled; if his faith is not strong, he prays the Lord to give him stronger faith. So should always pray the doubting Christian. If your faith is weak, cry for help.
Wesley's Notes
9:24 Help thou mine unbelief - Although my faith be so small, that it might rather be termed unbelief, yet help me.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
24. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe: help thou mine unbelief-that is, "It is useless concealing from Thee, O Thou mysterious, mighty Healer, the unbelief that still struggles in this heart of mine; but that heart bears me witness that I do believe in Thee; and if distrust still remains, I disown it, I wrestle with it, I seek help from Thee against it." Two things are very remarkable here: First, The felt and owned presence of unbelief, which only the strength of the man's faith could have so revealed to his own consciousness. Second, His appeal to Christ for help against his felt unbelief-a feature in the case quite unparalleled, and showing, more than all protestations could have done, the insight he had attained into the existence of a power in Christ more glorious them any he had besought for his poor child. The work was done; and as the commotion and confusion in the crowd was now increasing, Jesus at once, as Lord of spirits, gives the word of command to the dumb and deaf spirit to be gone, never again to return to his victim.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
9:14-29 The father of the suffering youth reflected on the want of power in the disciples; but Christ will have him reckon the disappointment to the want of faith. Very much is promised to our believing. If thou canst believe, it is possible that thy hard heart may be softened, thy spiritual diseases may be cured; and, weak as thou art, thou mayest be able to hold out to the end. Those that complain of unbelief, must look up to Christ for grace to help them against it, and his grace will be sufficient for them. Whom Christ cures, he cures effectually. But Satan is unwilling to be driven from those that have been long his slaves, and, when he cannot deceive or destroy the sinner, he will cause him all the terror that he can. The disciples must not think to do their work always with the same ease; some services call for more than ordinary pains.
Yes. No need to elaborate - the psychology here is not hidden.SAM said:
Not if you have a deity around, apparently. Being kind when you do not believe in the value of kindness, because you believe a powerful deity told you to be kind, is not dishonest or pitiful self-deception. Believing in the value of kindness, without the deity, is. That is the theistic pov.SAM said:
What is virtue to an atheist? What is a value?
To me it does. I see atheists as consequentialiasts. If I were to reward an animal for a good deed with a an electric shock, he would abstain from it. Thats consequentialism. Thats how atheists "believe" in kindness. Because it "works", so when you ask an atheist about ethics he will tell you about animal parenting and oxytocin and altruism from game theories. The outcome determines the "correct belief".
So all those guys who want to be atheist Jews, they've weighed the outcome measures and they are getting something out of it
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Yes. Again, the psychology here is not hidden. you are dealing with a confused description of "outcome" (whose outcome?) and the role of explanation in analysis of stuff like ethics, but that isn't really the point - it gets the denigration done, protects the self-description.SAM said:
You won't mind if I, knowing how I am viewed by theists and how their system of justification operates, am a bit wary about turning my back on them in tense situations?
An example of even one was recommended as an aid to answering your earlier questions - repeatedly. None has appeared.SAM said:
I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone who is saying bismillah before he takes a moutful of food will be viewed as a theist. If he considers himself merely a cultural Muslim, then he shouldn't be surprised if people wonder at the mixed signals. Such "tense" situations can be avoided with a bit of soul searching, but that might be difficult if you don't believe in souls