Conversion to atheist Judaism?

[James R]

And that relates to your previous points ... how?

 

[S.A.M.]

That one cannot convert to atheist Judaism because there is no such animal

 

[James R]

I agree.

 

[iceaura]

I consider the whole point of Judaism to be their Tanakh and covenant with God. Anyone who ignores that, in my opinion, is missing the whole point.

I'm entertaining myself with the contemplation of the variety of reactions you might display toward someone who informed you what the whole point of Islam was, in their infidel opinion.

And then confused their misbegotten and self-righteously shallow comprehension of Muslims with the Arabic people as a whole.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm entertaining myself with the contemplation of the variety of reactions you might display toward someone who informed you what the whole point of Islam was, in their infidel opinion.

And then confused their misbegotten and self-righteously shallow comprehension of Muslims with the Arabic people as a whole.

I'm surprised you'd need to contemplate that. The plethora of warnings I receive when I reflect those opinions should be ample education.

But seriously if I were doing salat in Haj and the guy doing the rakat next to me said, I don't believe in God, I'm just a cultural Muslim, I would burst out laughing.

 

[iceaura]

I'm surprised you'd need to contemplate that. The plethora of warnings I receive when I reflect those opinions should be ample education

Contemplation, not hypothesis, was the entertainment.

I thought many were reasonably well founded. Have you read them over, yourself?

 

[Michael]

The problem of course is that atheism is an empty bucket, becoming an atheist means you have nothing to follow.

Cultural norms I'd guess? :shrug:

Unless your culture is itself purely religious.

 

[S.A.M.]

iceaura:
Yeah, its always amusing when people tell you not to be offended about something but are then offended when you mock that proposition.

Cultural norms I'd guess? :shrug:

Unless your culture is itself purely religious.

All cultures are essentially religious and composed of what would be meaningless rituals if people did not believe in them. The point I would like to make is, if you have determined you do not believe in them, why carry on with the rituals? It makes as much sense for you to perform Haj as to attend Mass. But if I were to see you in Mecca, I'd consider you a tourist, not a pilgrim. If you then prostrated yourself at the Muqam-e-Ibrahim because you determined it a cultural ritual divorced from religious belief, I'd say you were deluded.

 

[iceaura]

But seriously if I were doing salat in Haj and the guy doing the rakat next to me said, I don't believe in God, I'm just a cultural Muslim, I would burst out laughing.

How would you treat the guy who lived modestly, prayed five times a day, gave full measure of charity to the poor, kept himself clean and observed Ramadan, and in all respects lived an exemplary life, himself and his family all, as an unbeliever in a Muslim community.

Would you regard him as a parasite? Exile him? Look down upon him as a pretender or liar?

All cultures are essentially religious and composed of what would be meaningless rituals if people did not believe in them.

But belief in the value of the customs and rituals, faith in the community and the value of the people, is not the same as belief in whatever deity the local religion as adopted - is it?

 

[S.A.M.]

How would you treat the guy who lived modestly, prayed five times a day, gave full measure of charity to the poor, kept himself clean and observed Ramadan, and in all respects lived an exemplary life, himself and his family all, as an unbeliever in a Muslim community.

Would you regard him as a parasite? Exile him? Look down upon him as a pretender or liar?

No I'd pity him.

But belief in the value of the customs and rituals, faith in the community and the value of the people, is not the same as belief in whatever deity the local religion as adopted - is it?

No just like wearing lipstick and mascara has nothing to do with being a woman. The rituals are optional but the core identity is not.

 

[Michael]

No was thinking: Is Judaism a cultural norm?

When Chinese Communists took charge of China, they may have been atheists, but they sure as hell stayed Chinese - whatever Chinese is?

 

[S.A.M.]

No was thinking: Is Judaism a cultural norm?

When Chinese Communists took charge of China, they may have been atheists, but they sure as hell stayed Chinese - whatever Chinese is?

Its why atheist societies have a vacuum that religious societies don't.

 

[wynn]

I didn't mean to imply they were being mean or that they cannot be desperate or unhappy, it must be hard to be without faith in a society based on one. I dislike the pretence

Take the Christmas tree for instance. Is it a requirement of Christianity? would one not be Christian if they did not put up a tree? I don't think so.

But look at all the stretches that atheists will go to, to justify putting up one. Its a pagan tradition, its got nothing to do with Jesus. Its blah blah blah blah blah

Who cares? You want to put up a fricking tree, put up the tree. Just don't call yourself a cultural Christian because you want to play Santa Claus too.

Similarly, the atheist Jew who's lighting the menorrah on Hanukkah? You don't believe YHWH saved the Jews from the Pharoah? No archaeological evidence of exile? Its all mythology? Guess what? No contest there. The issue is one of faith in God. You don't have it, fine, light the fricking menorrah and put it in your window. Just don't call yourself Jewish because you did it.

As Doreen succintly put it elsewhere, there is a difference between what people answer on a questionnarie, and what they actually believe.

We might also not always be aware of what we believe.

We might also be in the process of accepting or discounting some proposition, religious or otherwise, and while we are in that process, this is a stage that cannot be clearly identified as being one or the other. Nor is there often time and opportunity to explain precisely what we mean or wonder about. So we often give a simplistic answer.

Moreover, what we answer to a question put to us can depend to a greater or larger extent on who is asking, when, where, in what manner.

For example, if I happen to be faced with someone who seems very hostile to theism, I will likely withold all information that could reveal I have an interest in theism. So that person might conclude I am an atheist.
On the other hand, if I am researching something, I might use theistic arguments, and then some people conclude I am a theist.

To me, the whole issue of faith is just not that simple. And I am sure I am not the only one.

 

[Michael]

Its why atheist societies have a vacuum that religious societies don't.

What sort of vacuum? Has there really existed an atheist society? Even the Chinese Communists prayed to Mao. Seriously, my buddy grew up praying to Mao before dinner every day - as if Mao was a God. I guess, as ruler of a billion people, he pretty much was.

 

[S.A.M.]

As Doreen succintly put it elsewhere, there is a difference between what people answer on a questionnarie, and what they actually believe.

We might also not always be aware of what we believe.

We might also be in the process of accepting or discounting some proposition, religious or otherwise, and while we are in that process, this is a stage that cannot be clearly identified as being one or the other. Nor is there often time and opportunity to explain precisely what we mean or wonder about. So we often give a simplistic answer.

Moreover, what we answer to a question put to us can depend to a greater or larger extent on who is asking, when, where, in what manner.

For example, if I happen to be faced with someone who seems very hostile to theism, I will likely withold all information that could reveal I have an interest in theism. So that person might conclude I am an atheist.
On the other hand, if I am researching something, I might use theistic arguments, and then some people conclude I am a theist.

To me, the whole issue of faith is just not that simple. And I am sure I am not the only one.

I agree that people are often not who they say they are, which complicates communications. But what does it mean when someone practices what they do not believe?

 

[wynn]

All cultures are essentially religious and composed of what would be meaningless rituals if people did not believe in them. The point I would like to make is, if you have determined you do not believe in them, why carry on with the rituals?

Because one is hoping against hope that performing those rituals might lead to something good anyway.

It's a form of Pascal's Wager.

 

[wynn]

But what does it mean when someone practices what they do not believe?

It could mean that they yet haven't reached the goal of those practices.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because one is hoping against hope that performing those rituals might lead to something good anyway.

It's a form of Pascal's Wager.

Thats not Pascals Wager. Thats psychology 101. If you stretch your face in a smile, you feel good, psychologically. Because the act of smiling translates to your brain as "happiness".

Thats self delusion in a nutshell.

 

[iceaura]

The rituals are optional but the core identity is not.

The core identity is common to both - unless you regard such tangential aspects as an invented deity for justification "core", I suppose.

Its why atheist societies have a vacuum that religious societies don't.

The atheistic religious societies, like the American Navajo or the African hunter/gatherers - same vacuum? Or a different one?

Would you regard him as a parasite? Exile him? Look down upon him as a pretender or liar?
”
No I'd pity him.

Would it be OK if he pitied you? Suppose his virtues and obviously admirable character began to attract the respect of your children?

But what does it mean when someone practices what they do not believe?

Sometimes, that they believe in the value of the ritual.

Many atheists give to charity, for example - a fixed, disciplined percentage of their money and time.

 

[S.A.M.]

Suppose his virtues and obviously admirable character began to attract the respect of your children?

They should. Which is why I would pity him.

Same as I would pity the man who wore mascara because it made him feel feminine.