Compromising with apartheid [second try]

Progress is not instantaneous

Zephyr said:

That's an interesting claim, considering that there are affirmative action laws in place to undo the effects of previous discrimination.

And they're not out of the woods yet, are they?

Don't get me wrong; Amendments 13-15 to the U.S. Constitution were great progress, but it took until 1920 to get women the vote, and 1954 to get rid of "separate but equal".

India still has work to do. And it's good they're trying. But they're not where they want to be for equality yet.
 
So ...?

Spidergoat said:

If the Arabs were not attacking Israel and killing innocent people perhaps there would be less discrimination against them. One cannot expect one side to be pure and idealistic in the face of constant warfare.

So the Palestinians just should have shut up and taken it in 1948? Is that what you're proposing?
 
India still has work to do. And it's good they're trying. But they're not where they want to be for equality yet.

Indeed. And to quote Arundhati Roy:

“Those of us who come from former colonies ... think of imperialism as rape... Racism plays the same part today as it did in colonial times. There isn't any difference. I mean, the only people who are going to argue for the good side to imperialism are white people, people who were once masters, or Uncle Toms. I don't think you're going to find that argument being made by people in India, or people in South Africa, people in former colonies.”

Source:The Chequebook and the Cruise Missile: Conversations with Arundhati Roy

And to take it further:

"The trouble is that once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you've seen it, keeping quiet, saying nothing, becomes as political an act as speaking out. There's no innocence. Either way, you're accountable."

Source:The Shape of the Beast: Conversations with Arundhati Roy

I was not in the least surprised to find that her notions of imperialism were similar to mine.
 
How should for example, Palestinians compromise with a system of government that is based on a Jewish state in a land where foreign Jews have greater rights than indigenous non-Jews?

How do you get from the statement "both sides should compromise" to "the Palestinians should just cave in to Israel?"
 
How do you get from the statement "both sides should compromise" to "the Palestinians should just cave in to Israel?"

History and common sense. If a person moves into my house and relegates me to the basement, denying me access to the entry and exit, kitchen and bathroom, whats a "compromise"? How little I'm willing to accept in return for freedom?
 
If a person moves into my house and relegates me to the basement, denying me access to the entry and exit, kitchen and bathroom, whats a "compromise"?

Well, the obvious compromise would be to divide the bedrooms between the two parties, and grant everyone equal access to the common facilities (bathroom, kitchen, whatever). Better yet, build an addition to the house with enough room for everyone. What's so mysterious about that?

How little I'm willing to accept in return for freedom?

Depends on how important freedom is to you, relative to the house, I suppose.

How much is the other party willing to give up, in return for forgiveness?

Depends on how much forgiveness is worth to them, relative to the house.
 
Well, the obvious compromise would be to divide the bedrooms between the two parties, and grant everyone equal access to the common facilities (bathroom, kitchen, whatever). Better yet, build an addition to the house with enough room for everyone. What's so mysterious about that?

When can I move in?



Depends on how important freedom is to you, relative to the house, I suppose.

How much is the other party willing to give up, in return for forgiveness?

Depends on how much forgiveness is worth to them, relative to the house.

Indeed, so you barter your freedom with your home with someone who barters your home with your freedom.

Which is called a compromise on both sides
 
When can I move in?

?? It's your hyopthetical example. So whenever you care to imagine, I suppose.

Indeed, so you barter your freedom with your home with someone who barters your home with your freedom.

It ceased to be "your" home when it became apparent that you can't control who lives in it. To claim to "own" something when you do not have the power to enforce competing claims doesn't add up to an actual right; it's simply a statement of aspiration.

In your house analogy, for example, the normal context would be a powerful state that enforces a system of land titles and other property rights. When we say we "own" a house, what we mean is that the highest power in the land treats the house as our possession, and uses force against any who trespass against this status. So in your analogy there would be no need for compromise: you'd simply invoke the state, which granted you ownership in the first place, to show up with guns and get rid of the interlopers.

To make your house analogy apply to the geopolitical level, you need to either invoke a supreme international authority that enforces land title claims (the only reasonable candidate appearing to be the UN, which doesn't get you where you want to go), or alter the analogy so that the house exists in a wider context of anarchy. Which alters the implications significantly: in anarchy, ownership of property is exactly the same as the ability to defend it. And since the premise of the analogy is that one side is unable to defend their claims to the house, it follows that their claims hold no weight.

So, yeah, bad analogy all round. Too reductive; geopolitics is not home ownership.

Which is called a compromise on both sides

Sure. Both sides give up certain claims, in exchange forthe other side doing so.
 
?? It's your hyopthetical example. So whenever you care to imagine, I suppose.



It ceased to be "your" home when it became apparent that you can't control who lives in it. To claim to "own" something when you do not have the power to enforce competing claims doesn't add up to an actual right; it's simply a statement of aspiration.

In your house analogy, for example, the normal context would be a powerful state that enforces a system of land titles and other property rights. When we say we "own" a house, what we mean is that the highest power in the land treats the house as our possession, and uses force against any who trespass against this status. So in your analogy there would be no need for compromise: you'd simply invoke the state, which granted you ownership in the first place, to show up with guns and get rid of the interlopers.

To make your house analogy apply to the geopolitical level, you need to either invoke a supreme international authority that enforces land title claims (the only reasonable candidate appearing to be the UN, which doesn't get you where you want to go), or alter the analogy so that the house exists in a wider context of anarchy. Which alters the implications significantly: in anarchy, ownership of property is exactly the same as the ability to defend it. And since the premise of the analogy is that one side is unable to defend their claims to the house, it follows that their claims hold no weight.

So, yeah, bad analogy all round. Too reductive; geopolitics is not home ownership.



Sure. Both sides give up certain claims, in exchange forthe other side doing so.

In school, we call it pandering to the bully. As history shows, such "compromises" are generally all to the disadvantage of the weaker party.
 
Land ownership and Palestinian right of return

Let's get a couple of related issues cleared up:

James R said:

If this is true (and you have provided no evidence) then this is one of those issues on which Israel will most likely need to compromise to achieve a settlement.


(#2373364/21)

• • •​

Could you please link me to the laws that deny native non-Jews a "right of return"? I'm interested in seeing how this is actually formulated in Israeli law.


(#2373991/36)

And then there is this:

Zephyr said:

Does any Israeli law prevent Israeli Arabs from buying land in Israel?

(Interesting fact: Palestinians who sell land to Israelis are sentenced to death:


(#2375544/73)

In truth, I was annoyed at James' first proposition. It seemed as if he was asking for evidence according to LaPlace, except that the Israeli denial of Palestinian right of return isn't so extraordinary an assertion. As I noted in another thread, the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs is on the record refusing the Palestinian right of return:

This short survey has shown that neither under the international conventions, nor under the major UN resolutions, nor under the relevant agreements between the parties, do the Palestinian refugees have a right to return to Israel. According to Palestinian sources, there are about 3.5 million Palestinian refugees nowadays registered with UNRWA. If Israel were to allow all of them to return to her territory, this would be an act of suicide on her part, and no state can be expected to destroy itself.

Great efforts should be made by all those involved, and with the help of friendly outside powers, to find a reasonable, viable and fair solution to the refugee problem.


(Lapidoth)

• • •​

But regardless of Olmert's motives, Livni's appointment could have an important effect on that outcome. She has long taken an interest in the true pivot of the conflict, the Palestinian demand for the "right of return." Now her goal and motto should be a simple one: without positive Palestinian movement on that, there is little point to the summit and no basis for Israeli concessions.

When Ariel Sharon went to Washington in 2004 seeking assurances to back the planned unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, it was reportedly Livni who pressed Sharon to obtain a US statement on the "right of return." The resulting statement, though vague and very rarely repeated, was significant: "The United States is strongly committed to Israel's security and well-being as a Jewish state. It seems clear that an agreed, just, fair and realistic framework for a solution to the Palestinian refugee issue as part of any final status agreement will need to be found through the establishment of a Palestinian state, and the settling of Palestinian refugees there, rather than in Israel" (emphasis added).


(Jerusalem Post)

Thus it does not seem so extraordinary an assertion that Israel opposes the Palestinian right of return. Finding those articles took less than five minutes.

But James' second inquiry is fascinating. The legal structure of Israel is a mystery to most of us who aren't Israeli. What I really didn't expect was that when I went to search for the law, I would find it so quickly. Still, though:

Basic Law: Israel Lands

1. The ownership of Israel lands, being the lands in Israel of the State, the Development Authority or the Keren Kayemet Le-Israel, shall not be transferred either by sale or in any other manner.

2. Section 1 shall not apply to classes of lands and classes of transactions determined for that purpose by Law.

3. In this Law, "lands" means land, houses, buildings and anything permanently fixed to land.


(Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs)

This 1960 law seems to be at the heart of it. Reading through it the first time, I couldn't quite figure out how to apply it in the context of Palestinian right of return. So I did what just about any of us would do, and sought an analysis.

And this is why I include Zephyr's inquiry and counterpoint. Alexander Safian covered the issue in 1997 for Middle East Quarterly:

Although the PA's actions raise a multitude of questions about its intentions to fulfill its obligations to Israel and its readiness to live peaceably next to Israel, we focus here on the specifics of Arafat's justification of brutal PA behavior. Is he correct that Israel's land policies discriminate against Arabs? Is it true, as he claims, that Palestinians from Nablus or Hebron cannot buy land in Israel. Conversely, can an Israeli buy land in Jordan or in PA-controlled territory?

Palestinian leaders are hardly alone in claiming that the land "always goes from Arabs to the Jews." Many journalists and commentators have found Israel's policies to be discriminatory. These, they variously charged, bar non-Jews from leasing, or buying, or even accessing, most or all of the land in Israel.

The original formulation of this argument would seem to be by Walter Lehn, a professor of linguistics then at the University of Minnesota, who contended in a 1974 article in the Journal of Palestine Studies that

the [Israeli] state under colour of law effectively prevents any non-Jew from leasing or holding any rights ... to 90 percent of the land in Israel.​

Lehn's argument found a willing audience, and has been widely repeated by academics writing both for professional and lay readers. For example, Zachary Lockman, then a Harvard history professor, contended in a 1988 letter to The New York Times that

some 92 percent of Israel's land area is administered in accordance with ... [regulations which] prohibit these lands from being purchased, leased or worked by Arab citizens of Israel.​

More recently, speaking on National Public Radio's All Things Considered, William Quandt of the University of Virginia charged that

Israel was established as a state for Jews. It has of course an Arab minority who have citizenship rights, but the specific way in which land is owned in Israel is predominantly that the Jewish Agency purchases land on behalf of the Jewish people and then leases it out to its Jewish citizens.

Arabs cannot have access to that land that's owned by the Jewish Agency. They can keep land they have privately owned before the State of Israel was created. There's a small amount of private property that can be traded and Arabs can buy that as well as Jews, but most land is held in trust for the Jewish people, so yes there is a legal basis for what we would flat out call discriminatory practices.​

It's a complex issue. Safian notes that Israeli Bedouins, who comprise 82% of the nation's Arab population, have benefitted from affirmative action policies in the leasing of land, and that difference is dramatic:

Moreover, when it comes to residential land, the ILA sometimes offers Israeli Arabs more favorable terms from than it does to Israeli Jews. Thus, the ILA charged the equivalent of $24,000 for a capital lease on a quarter of an acre in new Jewish communities near Beersheva while Bedouin families in the nearby community of Rahat paid only $150 for the same amount of land. In a different case, when a Jewish policeman from Beersheva, Eleizer Avitan, applied to the ILA to lease land in a Bedouin community under the same highly subsidized terms available to the Bedouins, the ILA refused to lease him land there under any terms, so he sued. Israel's Supreme Court ruled in favor of the ILA, saying that what might be viewed as ILA discrimination against the Jewish citizen Avitan was justified as affirmative action for Bedouin citizens.

Beersheba, however, is the largest city in the Negev, where the Bedouin "tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel" (Wikipedia). Nonetheless, the Bedouin face certain forms of official discrimination at the hands of the Israeli government:

The Israeli government encourages Bedouin to settle as permanent residents in these development towns, but the other half of the Negev Bedouin population continues to live in 45 "unrecognized villages," some of which predate the existence of Israel. These villages do not appear on any commercial maps, and are denied basic services like water, electricity, and schools. It is forbidden by the Israeli authorities for the residents of these villages to build permanent structures, though many do, risking fines and home demolition.

(Wikipedia; see also, Boteach)

The Jewish National Fund, according to Safian, held 13.1% of the land in Israel as of 1997, but suggests in the end notes that number may be higher, perhaps 18%. Thus:

The purpose of the JNF, according to both its original charter and its 1953 Israeli charter is to purchase land for the settlement of Jews, and this has been interpreted to mean that JNF land should not be leased, at least on a long-term basis, to non-Jews. There are, thus, formal restrictions on the lease of JNF land to Arabs. That JNF lands are now administered by a government agency does not change this restriction, for JNF land is privately owned and to lease it on exactly equal terms to Jewish and Arab Israelis would violate the 1960 agreement that placed JNF lands under government administration.

So much for official restrictions. In practice, JNF land is leased to Arab citizens of Israel, for both short- and long-term use. Thus, the ILA has leased on a yearly basis JNF-owned land in the Besor Valley (Wadi Shallala), near Kibbutz Re'em, to Bedouins for use as pasture. Arab citizens have also leased JNF-owned land for housing purposes via a legal device that evades the restrictions against precisely such long-term use: The land in question is traded to the government so that it can be leased out and the JNF receives other land in return. Such swaps have sometimes taken place under threat of court action.


(Safian)

The thing is that for 80% of the land, nobody can buy it. It is state land. JNF land is leased to Arab Israelis, but that is a complicated issue as well, as the 1960 law is interpreted to forbid equal lease terms for Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis, and, furthermore, the JNF land is often swapped out so that, while Arab Israelis might have lease access to it, the JNF approximately maintains a certain amount of territory reserved for leases to Jewish Israelis.

Safian also explores Jordanian land restrictions, and this appears to be where the whole "death for selling land to Jews" idea comes from. In 1973, King Husayn instructed the government to pass a law forbidding the transfer of land to Jordan's enemy (e.g., Israel). Following the 1994 peace treaty between Jordan and Israel, the Jordanian parliament in 1995 repealed the capital sentence for selling land to Israelis, although it did maintain restrictions against non-Arabs purchasing, leasing, or owning immovable property.

Meanwhile, over in Palestine, former Justice Minister Freih Abu Meddein declared his intention to enforce the 1973 Jordanian law, and in 1997 the Palestinian Legislative Council passed a new law describing the sale of Palestinian land to the "occupiers" as an act of high treason. The question that arises, then, is what we might expect of any governmental authority that believes itself under occupation and discovers some of its citizens giving aid and comfort to the occupiers.

Those who would doubt Safian's credibility are free to do so, but should also bear in mind that he denounced Christiane Amanpour, regarding her God's Warriors miniseries for CNN, as "anti-Israel" and "anti-Christian", and furthermore accused her of whitewashing Islam. Indeed, the conclusion of his examination of the question, "Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel?" seeks not to answer the question either affirmatively or negatively, but rather politically:

In sum, the Palestinian Authority has successfully managed to charge Israel with the very sins that it itself is guilty of. The most striking instances of this success, perhaps, are the many academics and journalists who repeat and reinforce Palestinian charges of Israeli discrimination with regard to land ownership. This climate of distortion has two consequences. First, it misleads politicians, diplomats, and others about the basic facts that underlie the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Second, it encourages Palestinians to harbor unreasonable hopes and make exorbitant demands. These twin problems reinforce each other, and thereby make a genuine peace that much more difficult to achieve.

This presents a particularly bad precedent for the negotiation of such final status issues as Jerusalem, water rights, and the drawing of borders. It is likely that these final status issues will also be subject to campaigns to portray Israel as an unprovoked aggressor and Palestinians and Arabs as blameless victims. Indeed, there are signs that this has already begun.

And yet the fact remains that Arabs have access to ownership of between two and seven percent of Israeli land.

In terms of the Palestinian right of return, the 1960 Land Law would seem to forbid Israel from doing anything other than denying that claim.
____________________

Notes:

Lapidoth, Ruth. "Do Palestinian Refugees Have a Right to Return to Israel?" Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. January 15, 2001. MFA.gov.il. October 1, 2009. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/peace pro...alestinian refugees have a right to return to

"Livni's mission". Editorial. Jerusalem Post. October 15, 2007. JPost.com. October 1, 2009. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1192380561934

"Basic Law: Israel Lands". July 19, 1960. MFA.gov.il. October 1, 2009. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1960_1969/Basic Law- Israel Lands

Safian, Alexander. "Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel?" Middle East Quarterly. December, 1997. MEforum.org. October 1, 2009. http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

Yaffe, Nurit. "The Arab Population of Israel 2003". Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. 2003. CBS.gov.il. October 1, 2009. http://www.cbs.gov.il/statistical/arab_pop03e.pdf

Wikipedia. "Arab citizens of Israel". October 1, 2009. Wikipedia.com. October 1, 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Boteach, Elana. "The Indigenous Bedouin of the Negev Desert in Israel". Negev Coexistence Forum. July, 2005. IWGIA.org. October 1, 2009. http://www.iwgia.org/graphics/Synkr...ceboard/News/Middle East/Beduinreport2005.pdf

McCarthy, Justin. "'Fox and Friends' Guest Speaks Out Against CNN's 'God's Warriors'". News Busters. October 4, 2007. NewsBusters.org. October 1, 2009. http://newsbusters.org/blogs/justin...s-guest-speaks-out-against-cnns-gods-warriors
 
In school, we call it pandering to the bully.

Another poor analogy, since nation-states are not children, and the international system has no powerful authority figures charged with their supervision.

In school, there's no need to compromise; you have the officials punish trespassers and go on your way.

In the real world, the alternative to compromising with the strong is to be run over by them. It's a jungle out there, and complaining about the unfairness of this strikes me as bizarre (unless you're addressing a supreme being or something).

As history shows, such "compromises" are generally all to the disadvantage of the weaker party.

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of "weakness." Is it "just" that the weak suffer at the hands of the strong? Some anarchists might say yes, but the question seems profoundly beside the point to me, when applied at the level of nation-states. At least so far as someone rejects the idea of some sort of world government that gets to decide and enforce this stuff; if you're going to reject the UN as such a player (and not without reason), then the only basis for Palestinian property is Palestinian power. And if power is the sole basis for property, then there's nothing to complain about when the weak lose out to the strong. Justice doesn't play any role in that formulation; there is only the mechanics of property allocation according to power.

When a young male lion kills a weaker, older lion for control of the pride, do you rage at the injustice of the leonine social system? Do you even think that "rights" have anything to do with the situation?
 
When a young male lion kills a weaker, older lion for control of the pride, do you rage at the injustice of the leonine social system? Do you even think that "rights" have anything to do with the situation?

What if he gasses him instead? :rolleyes:
 
Specifying a (highly improbable) method of killing a lion doesn't alter my analogy in any way.

No, neither does switching a power differential with the morality of genocide.

Or as the blessing goes: Whatever you send out, will one day return to you a thousand fold
 
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