Compromising with apartheid [second try]

SAM:

Now what? Are we to pretend that if Israel does not make that law, there are no Palestinian refugees? Or that they all choose to stay as refugees for some reason?

Are you saying there actually is no such law? Hmm...

Where are these Palestinian refugees you're talking about? How many of them are there and where are they all?

Just a rough idea would be good.
 
the two aren't the same. Israeli/Jew= Palestinian Israel=Palestine. Your comparing a state's right to exist(something that i have yet seen proven needs to be recoginzed) with that of a peoples right to exist(something that is legal right under international law). I hope that is merely a grammitical fuck up.

Let's be clear then.

Do you think the Palestinian people ought to recognise the existence of a STATE of Israel?
Do you think the Israeli people ought to recognise the existence of a STATE of Palestine?
 
SAM:



Are you saying there actually is no such law? Hmm...

Where are these Palestinian refugees you're talking about? How many of them are there and where are they all?

Just a rough idea would be good.

No I won't. I won't pander to your denial of the Palestinian problem.

I won't ask the rape victim to strip so you can decide if she was really raped. I refuse. Absolutely, completely, totally to explain to you the Palestinian refugee problem.

And I will never engage you on this topic, ever again.

I thank you for making it clear to me.
 
Let's be clear then.

Do you think the Palestinian people ought to recognise the existence of a STATE of Israel?
yes. I believe i already said though i might be wrong and might have only said that recognizing Israel exist is an ok thing to ask for.
Do you think the Israeli people ought to recognise the existence of a STATE of Palestine?
yes with all right accorded to states.



of course my beliefs are more complex than this but I don't think you were asking me to go into detail.
 
SAM:

If you're going to address me, please be up front about it. Don't mooch around and pretend you're talking to the air or talking about me behind my back.

I hear often from some people that I don't know who my friends are and how much certain parties agree with me on my political stances. That it is the way I present my stance which makes me a problem on this forum.

From "some people" eh? Sounds like "some people" share private messages that they really ought to keep private.

If you had asked a Jew:

Could you please link me to the laws that show there was intent to kill the Jews in Germany?

it would be called holocaust denial.

So you're accusing me of denying the plight of the Palestinians when I ask you to justify your claim that non-native non-Jews are denied a "right of return" by the state of Israel.

Do you have ANY actual evidence that there is such a denial, seeing as it seems that there are no actual laws concerning the matter (something I was not previously aware of)? Or is it just rhetoric on your part?

You would not go to a concentration camp and tell a holocaust survivor that he should make peace with the Nazis [at least, I hope not]

Forgiving somebody who has wronged you is one of the most difficult of tasks any human being ever has to face. You can't force forgiveness. It can only come from the victim himself. Of course, I can totally understand how a victim of the holocaust might be unable to ever forgive. But on the other hand, I know of plenty who have.

You would not go to an Aboriginal and tell him he needs to recognise that Occupied Australia is now a white, European colonial state and he is a second class citizen who needs to make peace with the fact that his backward and to you, immoral existence needs an update into the 21st century [but then, maybe you might have supported, in principle, the Stolen Generation as one of those upright moral men who are anguished by the backwardness of the ignorant, I could not say]

This is emotive nonsense that practically amounts to trolling again. I hardly know where to start. Briefly (sigh)...

Australia is not now a white, European or colonial state.
Indigenous Australians are not "second class citizens".
The term "aboriginal" is a sensitive one and you ought to be careful in using it.
Indigenous Australians have never had a "backward" or "immoral" existence, at least no more so than white Australians taken as a homogeneous mass (which is another error in itself).

Your backhanded allegation that I "might have supported" the Stolen Generation policies of past Australian governments is untestable nonsense and just a meaningless personal slur. You ought to be above that, but you're not SAM, are you? The only ignorance I'm "anguished" by right now is yours.

As someone coming from a country where we did hold on for one thousand years, unscramble all the eggs to make them our omelet and did it without any lingering antipathy to those who enslaved and diminished us, let me tell you, that whatever else you may be in your own mind, you are not one who shares my political stance on any of these issues.

Congratulations on stating the bleeding obvious, SAM. Obviously our approaches to these matters are very very different. I'm so glad they are.

I would never go to a rape victim and tell her to recognise the authority of her rapist over her. You would never think of occupation in those terms.

You're right. It diminishes rape victims. It's insulting.
 
SAM:

No I won't. I won't pander to your denial of the Palestinian problem.

I'm not denying anything. I asked you a simple question. You assert that there's a massive displacement of Palestinian people from their lands, and (presumably) a huge number of refugees. All I ask is for you to provide some details of how many of these refugees there are and where they all went.

I don't know what to make of the fact that you seem personally affronted by the fact that I dared to ask you such a question.

And I will never engage you on this topic, ever again.

Oh, goody!

Cheers, SAM.
 
SAM:



I'm not denying anything. I asked you a simple question. You assert that there's a massive displacement of Palestinian people from their lands, and (presumably) a huge number of refugees. All I ask is for you to provide some details of how many of these refugees there are and where they all went.

I don't know what to make of the fact that you seem personally affronted by the fact that I dared to ask you such a question.



Oh, goody!

Cheers, SAM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Demographics the chart lists sources though in all honesty it feels a little high
 
There is no compromising with the unrealistic opinion that unification of Palestinians and Israelis will lead to even a temporary peace. Such warring parties should be independent of each other, their borders clear, with the goal of normalization of relations in the future. An individual's perception of ownership of land is secondary to the basic right to live.
 
Peace can only be achieved at present with two separate states, and even that is a stretch. Once peace prevails, who would want to threaten it with further change?
 
Peace can only be achieved at present with two separate states, and even that is a stretch.

Peace could also be achieved by large scale genocide of either population, but thats not a sufficient incentive to suggest it, for me.

With other people there may be differences in what they see as a necessity for peace but anyone who proposes that segregation/apartheid is a requirement for peace should not expect a desegregated society himself. Or accuse anyone else who proposes segregation for "his people". Unless of course, you have suddenly become a proponent of Jewish expulsions throughout history and agree that it was necessary to separate the Jews from other peoples to ensure peace.

Once peace prevails, who would want to threaten it with further change?

Is that a joke?
 
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Peace can only be achieved at present with two separate states, and even that is a stretch.
not really. once Israel recognizes the palestinians rights and what that entails the whole conflict disappears for the most part.
Once peace prevails, who would want to threaten it with further change?

some of us want justice as well.
supremus totus justicia
 
some of us want justice as well.
supremus totus justicia

Indeed. And not just for ourselves alone

How can American Jews demand equality in the US and defend a system of inequality in Israel/Palestine?

Holocaust-survivor-Rabbi-Joachim-Prinz-with-Other-March-on-Washington-leaders.gif


Holocaust survivor Rabbi Joachim Prinz with
other March on Washington leaders​


What if Israel decided tomorrow that it would pull out all illegal settlers and allow the Palestinians to form their own state on the 1967 borders without any adjustments? This is of course unbelievably far-fetched, but what if it happened? Then we would still have Israel, a Jewish State with about 80% Jewish and 20% non-Jewish population. Would the 20% be full-fledged citizens? Of course not. To take just one area, education, Jewish and non-Jewish students are educated separately, with much more funding per pupil and many more resources devoted to the Jewish students. If that differential were eliminated, we would have separate but equal education, the kind declared unconstitutional in the US in 1954. So there would have to be vast improvement, the kind Israel has been unable to muster in 61 years, to achieve educational "parity" that has been unlawful here for nearly as long.

To take another area, Jews may not marry non-Jews in Israel. That sort of prohibition was outlawed in the US in 1967. Employment, housing, social status? Those areas have no pretense of equality either. Of course, Israel could try to minimize the differences between its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens, although its track record in that regard should not make anyone optimistic for even the slightest improvement. The situation is awful and getting worse. But even if things turned around dramatically, such officially sanctioned discrimination could never be eliminated entirely. Non-Jews would never feel equal to Jews in the Jewish State, even if Israel made enormous progress that is so unlikely as to be virtually impossible.

How can we American Jews, who rightfully demand equality in the land of our birth and country of our citizenship, and demand the same for other US minorities as well, defend or even tolerate a system in which others are denied that same basic equality? This is especially true where this discriminatory policy favors Jews and is maintained in the name of Jews everywhere. I think that one state, in which all citizens are truly equal, is inevitable. If it is, we should strive to achieve it sooner rather than later, and as peacefully as possible. I’m not opposed to the two-state solution; if it is more feasible as a short-term goal, the Palestinians who are not citizens of Israel are in a far graver position and need of immediate relief. But this two-state solution should be temporary, even if it takes an extended period to evolve. Eventually, the world should and will lose its patience with a Jewish State that officially discriminates against those who have inconvenient or unfortunate ethnicity.

Israel and its defenders have done a remarkable job in disguising the true nature of the conflict. It is not between Jews who want to live in peace and Arabs who cannot stomach their presence. It is between those who insist on Jewish domination and superiority over others, and those who insist on a resolution based on true equality. If Israeli Jews extend the hand of friendship, mutual respect and equality, I think it would be eagerly grasped. If Israeli Jews want to continue to live there, free to believe and worship as they please with some measure of peace and security and normalcy, they have no choice. Like all people, they deserve this result, but will never achieve it if they insist on eternal rule over others.


And a comment from the same link; a vignette:


Years ago, the last time Netanyahu was PM as a matter of fact, I was at a demo in East Jerusalem, protesting against some government nastiness or other, and I got to talking to a Palestinian woman I’d already seen at a few demonstrations. I asked her what she thought a fair solution to the conflict would be (I was a Zionist and firm believer in two states back then). She said: “A single secular democratic state in all of Palestine”. “But what’s in it for the Jews?” I asked, a little taken aback. Without batting an eyelash, she replied: “You don’t have to go back to Poland.” It took me another few years to realise what a generous and courageous idea that really was, coming from a Palestinian. We hear so much about Israeli fears and concerns, but here was a Palestinian who had obviously had it up to the eyeballs with Israel, willing to take a leap of faith and live as an equal with those who had taken her people’s land – and worse. She was even willing to welcome the millions of Jewish immigrants who had changed her country in so many ways, on condition that they renounce domination in favour of equality. One simple, obvious human condition for peaceful coexistence, and the courage to overcome fear and mistrust. In the short-term, it is the only really just solution. In the long-term it is the only viable solution. And for those who dismiss the idea as naive wishful thinking, please tell me how well the two-state idea has been going so far and when you think Israel and Palestine will be exchanging ambassadors.
 
Israel doesn't have to have equality if they don't want it. There is no equality for Jews in predominantly Islamic states either. That's why there should be two separate states. Certainly the leadership of the Palestinians has no pretense of such ideals.
 
If you note, that post is not addressing Israeli Jews. Or Islamic nations.
 
Israel doesn't have to have equality if they don't want it. There is no equality for Jews in predominantly Islamic states either. That's why there should be two separate states. Certainly the leadership of the Palestinians has no pretense of such ideals.

which is a reaction to what Israel did not an unrelated event.
 
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