Come and attack Christian belief please.

Originally posted by one_raven
If you say that the Bible has been altered with by mankind, and you believe what you believe regardless of what the Bible says, how do you know what was and what was not tampered with?
I don't know exactly, but anything which contradicts itself is suspect for sure.

Put it another way, when has mans view of things ever been perfect, when has anything that man has written been pure truth.

If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theoligians.
 
Cool thinking Sherlock...

Vienna,

Quote Vienna:
"If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theoligians."

This displays a definate anti-christian pov. Groovy, I like it, it makes sense. But then,

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. If man was created after God's image and man is a sinner, would that mean God is a sinner too?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote Vienna:
"No - sin was created by a fallen angel, it's a long story.. lol! Perhaps someone else could explain this one better than I can"

And this displays a christian pov. Where do you stand?
 
Re: Cool thinking Sherlock...

Originally posted by stretched
Vienna,

Quote Vienna:
"If God had written the Bible or Qur'an it would never need to be translated, it would never be in a certain "tongue". I believe it would be available to be read by anyone in the world without the need for translation, or the need for theoligians."

This displays a definate anti-christian pov. Groovy, I like it, it makes sense.
Hello Stretched

I don't intend to preach anything that is anti-Christian, if I have then I apologise. These are only my personal views in some areas of Christianity

Quote Vienna:
"No - sin was created by a fallen angel, it's a long story.. lol! Perhaps someone else could explain this one better than I can"

And this displays a christian pov. Where do you stand?

Where do I stand? Well, thats a fair question.

I used to believe in Jesus Christ and God without any fear of contradiction.

But events happen in ones life when you question your faith, and whether there is a God after all. But even in times of doubt I try not to forget the teachings of Jesus.

There are good standards here to live by, and I still try to keep to them (sometimes not very well) when my faith and belief in God escapes me.
 
ANSWER POST 1

Pakman wrote about 7 questions, after I said to write one, but because I’m just soooooo nice I’m going to answer them all lol. By the way it is 1:35am in the morning right now, so these answers may not make much sense, I may need to correct them when I’m more awake :D


QUESTION 1. Why is it that you send thousands of missionaries throughout the world and Islam sends none, yet Islam is the fastest growing religion?

ANSWER 1: I guess I can only give you my thoughts on this one, but I guess that’s what you’re asking for. Now Christians send missionaries because Jesus said go out to the entire world preaching the good news and making disciples of my people (not exact quote but too tired to look it up). So that’s why missionaries go out, because Jesus tells us too, and when you believe that Jesus went to hell and back for you, then you don’t mind going to China and back for him.

The reasons I think Islam is growing faster are as follows:

1st: Arabic countries have no tolerance for any belief other than Islam, thus with no opposition Islam spreads faster (no tolerance can be shown in many quotes from the Qu’ran, one that comes to mind goes something like ‘deal with those who preach a message other then Islam, as your province demands’ – it is something like that, I can find it for you when I have more time) And it is my impression that the way Islamic provinces deal with anti Islamic preaching, is to kill the preacher – a very effective method I might add :p Now Christianity also puts pressure on people to be Christian, yet they are tolerant of other beliefs, some may disagree but when compared to Islam Christianity is extremely tolerant.

2nd: And this is totally just what I have heard from people, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was wrong, it is an opinion I have come to by my own logic so I hope it is a least partially correct. – Okay Muslims can’t use birth control. Christians can. So Christians end up raising around 2 Christian children, while Muslims raise around 5 or so Muslim children. So the growth of Islam isn’t because it is converting people throughout the entire world like Christianity, it is at least partly due to the fact that Muslims raise so many Muslims. If this has offended anyone because it is wrong, then I’m sorry, I’m definitely up for discussion on this point of view, as I would like to test the truth of it. Thanks.

Sorry I had other reasons in my head only a few minutes ago, but it’s too late at night and they’ve just gone.


QUESTION 2. If man was created after God's image and man is a sinner, would that mean God is a sinner too?

ANSWER 2: Man was created after God’s image, yes he was indeed, and so was woman for that matter. And when they were created they were perfect, absolutely nothing wrong with them. No lies’, no hatred, no dandruff, nothing wrong at all. But you see as history has shown us time and time again, man can take a perfect situation, and turn it into an utter disaster. Why? It’s because we have choice. To choose good or bad. I’m going to discuss epistemology and (that other big word about truth lol) in another post, so I’ll just say something very simplistic here. Good is what God says is good, bad is what God says is bad. Now God said to Adam and Eve, that it’s bad to choose to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (personally I think God was being way too easy here, like I already don’t like fruit, so I don’t see how it could be sooo tempting) But because God didn’t want Adam and Eve to be mindless followers, who had no choice of what they wanted to do or who they followed (as in he didn’t want puppets) he gave them the choice to do what is right (what He says to do) or what is wrong (what He says not to do). And long story short we made the wrong choice.

So God isn’t a sinner at all, He is just someone who always makes the right choice, man is the one that chooses bad. We are in His likeness because we can choose, but our choices are what separate us.


QUESTION 3. Why are women considered spiritually and physically inferior? Well, I know the answer to that, but I would like your opinion on it?

ANSWER 3: Women aren’t spiritually inferior, and I’ve met many a woman who could smash me down, so they aren’t physically inferior either lol. This is such a huge topic that I will just reveal the top of the iceberg on. Jesus said, “Whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, all are made equal in me”. So we are equal. Now we bring up what people think are contradictions to what Jesus said. Such as the husband being the head of the house etc. Some of what the apostle Paul writes on this is based on the culture of the day (e.g. women must not ask a question in church, but ask their husbands later etc…). But some is more deeper then that. Basically throughout both the New and Old Testaments, the way man and woman are meant to work in a relationship is this. They get married; the woman lets the husband lead the way, while she is an example to him. Now this doesn’t make them unequal (wasn’t Jesus sent as an example for us, and he by no means is less then us just because we make the decision to follow His example or not), it just gives them different roles. Logically I can say; if we have two leaders in a relationship, then one will go one way and the other the other way (divorce). Yet the way God has set it up, is that the woman is the example to the husband, as in she shows him how he is supposed to act, and basically influences the husbands decisions. The husband is supposed to listen to his wife, and act accordingly. Now when the wife isn’t a good example, the husband makes bad decisions. This can be seen when Eve eats the forbidden fruit, and then Adam seeing her example, decides to do the same. Eve did the wrong thing, and stuffed it up for Adam because that’s the way a relationship works, they both suffer for the ones decision, because they are both connected in that relationship. Now Adam, because he is the head of the relationship, was held responsible for what they had done wrong, and because they were both connected, both were thrown out of what was heaven on earth, the Garden of Eden. Now this story is very symbolic, but as I have shown you, it has consistent truths within it.


QUESTION 4. Why must you say that Jesus is the only way into heaven? There are other quotes in the Bible, which say that there are other ways to get to heaven. Someone told me that it was like that until Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice and then now there was only one way.


ANSWER 4: Okay we say Jesus is the only way to Heaven, because Jesus said ‘I’m the only way to heaven.’ Well He actually said; “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.” Now the Old Testament is where you’ll get the quotes saying that there are other ways to Heaven. E.g. through obeying the law (basically the Ten Commandments) and when the law isn’t obeyed, you must sacrifice an animal or burn some grain or whatever to pay for your sins (not keeping the law). Now I think God had the foresight to tell that this way couldn’t last. For cultural reasons alone, like imagine a modern day westerner going out into the back yard to fire up the altar. And secondly, that arrangement of following the law was both extremely hard and temporary. That’s where the New Testament comes in. Now God wanted to make a sacrifice on our behalf, so little bah bah black sheep didn’t have to die every time some jerk didn’t follow the law. And also because He loves us lol. Nah God made the sacrifice so we didn’t have to, so that it would be easy for us to get to Heaven, because God does in fact love us, and wants us to be with Him for eternity. Now the sacrifice God was going to make, had to not only be big, it had to be huge, gigantic, and immense :p It had to pay the debt of countless present and future sins that humans make constantly. This payment had to be bigger then just a few sheep, it had to be God’s very own Son. This was the greatest sacrifice possible for God to make; yet He loves us so much that He made that sacrifice for us. And all we have to do to get saved, is to accept what God offers, and God offers us Jesus’ sacrificed on the cross, God offers us the payment for our sin (forgiveness), yes that’s right, God offers us Heaven with him for eternity.

Now God didn’t just make a new way to get saved, he got rid of the old ways to get saved as well. No longer could we get saved from sacrificing little sheep or pigs, or burning grain, or living by the law. No God got rid of that now culturally unacceptable practice, that outdated, and temporary practice, and replaced it with Jesus’ offer of salvation. If you ask me I’m glad that God changed the way we are to be saved.


QUESTION 5. In addition to question 4, does that mean that God changes his mind?

ANSWER 5: Okay now if I want to go down to the shop and buy me a pizza, I make up my mind and say, I’m gonna buy me a pizza. Now if I get in the car to go down there, and discover that the car is broken down, what do I do? I tell you what I do, I’m darn hungry, and I really want that pizza, so I sacrifice my money and get it delivered. Now my money is really important to me, but because I want that pizza so much, I sacrifice my money anyway.

Now did my mind change? At the start I wanted pizza, at the end I wanted pizza. Just because I got it a different way, doesn’t mean my mind changed from what I had decided to get.

We are God’s pizza :p God really wants a relationship with us. God found that to get that relationship He had to get rid of the old broken down car of the Old Testament, and replace it with the sacrifice of His only Son. Yet during this changing of ways to be saved, God didn’t change His mind, His mind was unfalteringly set on saving us.


QUESTION 6. You say that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as his savior will go to hell. Well, that is unreasonable to anyone who is not Christian. What is your opinion on that?

ANSWER 6: Of course it is unreasonable to a person who isn’t saved. It’s like trying to make a blind man comprehend the sky. The Bible goes as far as to say that with man, making someone understand and realize the truth of Jesus Christ, is impossible. But it also goes on to say, that with God all things are possible. Hey if you think that Jesus being the only way to Heaven is unreasonable, then you need God to explain some things to you. And He just so happened to write a very very long explanation called the Bible, maybe you should read it. :D


QUESTION 7. Why do you say Jesus is God when Jesus himself prayed to God for help?

ANSWER 7: God is triune. He is made up of the Holy Spirit, The Father, and The Son. They are God, and if mere humans could comprehend something so complex then it would bring God down to our extremely low level of understanding, a level I would personally not be able to bring myself to worship. Our understanding, not so long ago, told us that the Earth was flat, and everything revolved around it. How can we understand God when we have just now started to understand our very own planet?

But there is one thing I can say that may reveal something of God’s nature to you. And that is that like time, God is one. Time is past, time is present, time is future. But although time is three things, in essence they are all just time. God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit. But although God is three things, in essence they are all one God.

I hope these answers have been helpful, it is now 3:07am and I really have to be off to bed.

CyA’s
 
Come and attack Christian belief please.

Ok.

Christians (like most people) are selfish, ass-kissing creatures. They kiss the ass of God soley for self-preservation, yet claim to be doing it in the name of righteousness.

They never care to consider what is wrong about God. They don't care about all those poor souls suffering in hell, because caring would be putting their own ass on the line. This is because when you start to care about these things, you create an uneasy conflict between your own self-interest and the well-being of others. So christians remove themselves from this path to self-enlightenment, and instead spend there time caring about relatively trivial matters such as not judging others, forgiveness, and saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

But what about hell? Does any christian honestly believe that any human deserves torturous eternal punishment, simply for not believing in something that really is not very believable? Is the act of having doubt so bad as to warrent this eternal torment? Of course not. So how can Christians overlook this? How can they not care? It's just so inhumane to be so uncaring for your fellow man that way.

If christains "cared" so much for other people, then they would not be christain at all. Because as a truely caring person, it's impossible to divert your attention from such an atrocity.

There's a difference between righteousness and self-righteouness.
 
Originally posted by matnay
Come and attack Christian belief please.

Ok.

Christians (like most people) are selfish, ass-kissing creatures. They kiss the ass of God soley for self-preservation, yet claim to be doing it in the name of righteousness.

They never care to consider what is wrong about God. They don't care about all those poor souls suffering in hell, because caring would be putting their own ass on the line. This is because when you start to care about these things, you create an uneasy conflict between your own self-interest and the well-being of others. So christians remove themselves from this path to self-enlightenment, and instead spend there time caring about relatively trivial matters such as not judging others, forgiveness, and saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

But what about hell? Does any christian honestly believe that any human deserves torturous eternal punishment, simply for not believing in something that really is not very believable? Is the act of having doubt so bad as to warrent this eternal torment? Of course not. So how can Christians overlook this? How can they not care? It's just so inhumane to be so uncaring for your fellow man that way.

If christains "cared" so much for other people, then they would not be christain at all. Because as a truely caring person, it's impossible to divert your attention from such an atrocity.

There's a difference between righteousness and self-righteouness.
----------
M*W: As always, you're a breath of fresh air!
 
ANSWER POST 2

Cris Wrote this question

QUESTION: There is no single fact that you can show that demonstrates the existence of God. Why then continue to believe that a God exists? Isn't this simply irrational?

ANSWER: There are thousands of facts. Just none are good enough for athiests. I could write a list sooooooo long of facts. If you really want me to, tell me, but it'll take me hours, so I'll answer the other questions first.

Thanks
 
ConsequentAtheist wrote this to a person who posted a question in here:

Religion aside, it saddens me that you are apparently too ignorant to understand this. I suspect that this remarkable ignorance goes a long way to explain your naive religious zeal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------You don't need to burn someone alive for asking a question. Of course the person is ignorant. What kind of person do you think asks a question, it's one that doesn't know the answer. Yes it is one that is ignorant. You go on about how ignorant others are, when you too are ignorant of millions of millions times more then what you could ever know. No human can know everything, so everyone is ignorant of something. Your very agnostic brothers proclaim their ignorance to the world. They we DON'T KNOW if there is a God, because they haven't seen enough evidence. Their lack of evidence, causes them to have a belief of ignorance.

So don't go telling people that they are ignorant and naive for asking a question. You don't have to be a bastard to prove a point, you can prove a point like Jesus did, or you can prove a point like Hitler did. I think the choice is easy.

CyA - by the way I have nothing against the point of your message, I just hate the attitude in which you wrote it.
 
Trivial can be defined as something one can live without. And guess what? Gods and religions fit this definition well.
 
one_raven wrote the following:

I am not offering up any challenges right now.
I am just posting to say that if you are doing this in an effort to challenge and question your faith and the validity of your beliefs under scrutiny by other points of view, then I commend you (for whatever that may be worth).

I have to say, that many (if not most) of the Christians I have come into contact with, not only do not do this as a general rule, they outright refuse to even consider it because they "know the truth" and don't need to question their faith in God.
That is one of my biggest complaints about Christians in general.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY REPLY: Okay I can honestly say that I get more annoyed with Christians, than many atheists. They're not perfect, but that doesn't excuse their attitude. There are a couple types of Christians I have come across over the 14 or so years I've been a Christian.

1st Type: The HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY alien freak get away from me now before a shoot you type of Christian. My school chaplain fell under this category. This type of Christian simply does not have the brainpower needed to investigate their own beliefs, let alone the beliefs of others.

2nd Type: The ‘I'm a Christian because I've been going to church all my life’ type of Christian. This kind of Christian is too lazy to even become a Christian, because you don't become a Christian from going to church, you become one from giving your life to Christ. Now this type of Christian is too lazy to be what they say they are, let alone investigate what else they could be.

3rd Type: ‘I'm a Christian for social reasons’ type. These Christians leave church early, or stay out back during the service. They aren't interested in their own belief, and couldn't be stuffed finding out about any other beliefs.

THEN THERE IS ME, the 4th Type: We are extremely rare. We listen to sermons at church, and even outside of church on CD. We actually read the Bible. We have learnt about our own belief, and have found great confidence in it. We are so confident in fact that we go out and learn about other beliefs as well, to test our faith. We read about the joke of Mormonism, the stupidity of Jehovah Witness, the arguments of atheism which were proved wrong 25 years ago but are still used, we read about the self defeating belief of agnosticism, the satanic influence on New Age belief, the unlivable philosophies of Buddhism (like who could live their life while thinking that the world was a figment of their imagination). We investigate all these beliefs, and there is one thing we find that all these beliefs have in common. They're all wrong. And there is another thing we find over and over again, it's that every single argument these beliefs have against Christianity can either be convincingly fought against, or totally refuted. And it is when you become this kind of Christian that you become the kind of Christian the Bible tells us to be. The Bible says to have a ready answer for any question people ask you about your faith. But many Christians are happy with ignorance, and don't even have the desire for the wisdom that the Bible says is better then gold and silver. The Christians that don't fall into the fourth category fall away from Christianity and become backsliders, unless they are extremely lucky.

Anyway, hope that has been at least a bit interesting.

CyA's
 
Vienna, not meaning this in a bad way, but shut up and get out of my thread. Your answers scare me. They are so unbelievably cruddy that my stomach sunk when I read them. This thread is for attacks on Christianity, I'm the one defending and answering, not you. Make your own thread if you want to give out short and erroneous hollow bull crud answers to some very good questions. Please learn about Christianity before you try to preach it.

Hope you listen to this rebuke because you're leading people down a path that isn't Christian.

Thanks.
 
Originally posted by answers
Vienna, not meaning this in a bad way, but shut up and get out of my thread. Your answers scare me. They are so unbelievably cruddy that my stomach sunk when I read them. This thread is for attacks on Christianity, I'm the one defending and answering, not you. Make your own thread if you want to give out short and erroneous hollow bull crud answers to some very good questions. Please learn about Christianity before you try to preach it.

Hope you listen to this rebuke because you're leading people down a path that isn't Christian.

Thanks.

huh? Ansswers....what are you talking about? Don't be mean to vienna, he is a devout Christian, you shouldn't say anything like that to hurt his feelings.

So, "answers" did any one attack christianity yet? I didn't see any attacks but rather questions. I mean as you thought muslims might attack Christianity but they didn't and I understand that you are honest about the questions and answers, so please do not take my post as a negetive. Thank you.


I do have some questions which I will ask later, since I can't spend all day infront of computer. :)
 
A true Christian would understand why I was angry at Vienna's posts. People make the mistake of thinking Christianity = nice. No Christianity = truth. Truthfulness is more important than being nice. Especially when things like Vienna's posts take away glory from God. What did Jesus do when people turned God's temple into a market place, taking away God's glory? He went in there yelling at them to get out, and overturned their tables, and chased them away. It's called righteous anger, it’s the only type of anger, which a Christian is allowed (and commanded) to have. If you can sit back and watch someone spit in the face of someone you love, then I doubt you love that person. Similarly if you can sit back and watch someone say false things about God, taking away His glory, while that person says they're a follower, then you're not a true Christian.

Sure I care about Vienna, about his feelings etc. But the truth of God, and His glory is more important than anything else, and I won't sit by being nice, not rebuking someone who takes that truth and glory away.

If I was taking God’s glory away, I would expect a true Christian to rebuke me for it, because my feelings and my pride are worthless when compared to God’s truth and Glory.

If you had a child, who was attending school, and your child was being picked on, and you saw this, you would tell the kids picking on him to shut up and get lost. Why? Because you love your child and don’t want to see him get picked on. But if you went home that night, and started teasing your child as well, not even deliberately, you just saw him do something stupid and you thought you might make some “funny” comments on it. If you truly loved your child, and didn’t want to see him getting teased or picked on, then you would gladly accept your wife or someone else, tell you that you have done what you just that day told others not to do. You see true love for someone is greater then even the love you have for yourself, and true love sacrifices yourself in order to help another. That is the true principle of Christianity, one that I will never abandon.

Sure I said what I said in anger, but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t say it in love as well.

Complicated but it does make sense.

CyA
 
Questions are the best way to attack a person's beliefs. Jesus asked more questions then He made statements, because He was attacking the beliefs of the Pharisees. Man even a child can attack a belief by using questions. You say the sun rises in the morning, the child replies 'why?' You say because it always has 'why?' the child replies again. You say because it is part of nature 'why?'.......... Questions are the easiest way to attack someones beliefs, and that is why I welcome them. Because I'm confident that my beliefs can stand up to even the hardest attacks.

Anyway it's 2:52pm and I need breakfast :p

CyA's
 
answers,

There are many...but, my main peeve is how "god" demonstrated brutality... telling them to dash children into pieces before their parents eyes...then there is all the innocent babies and children that died in the flood.

I just can't see how killing children is good or right, yet your god did.

Then there was the time Elisha called a curse down on some children because they made fun of him for being bald. The two bears mauled 42 of the children.

How about when Uzzah tried to stop the ark of god from falling, because an ox stumbled, and "god" killed him because he touched it.

The threat of hell is nothing but a scare tactic- the "Do it my way or burn in hell". I have witnessed the damage christianity can bring because of this. I mean it's one thing to go about your business and believe as you wish..but, to bible thump and scare the living poop out of people is another. Just my two cents.
 
Originally posted by answers
There are a couple types of Christians I have come across over the 14 or so years I've been a Christian.

You forgot the ultimate.
The ones that do the most to give Christianity a bad name.
The ones that have done more to degrad the value of the organized religion of Christianity even more than people like me.

The Hypochristian, my favorite target, and possibly the most common.

The "Christians" who don't even bother trying to live by Christian values and ideals, but throw them at others like they are hand grenades.

The "Christians" that crucify others by quoting passages from the Bible at them, but are chock full of excuses and justifications why they are justified in ignoring the passages they don't live up to.

The "Christians" that beat their spouses/steal/cheat/lie/etc. only to pray to Jesus for forgiveness that night and continue with the same abhorable behavior the next day.

The "Christians" that ...

Well, I think you get the idea.
 
One raven: Yep some "Christians" really suck. But most of the "Christians" you described aren't Christians at all. Many people call themselves Christian, they say it with their words, but they don't show it with their actions. The Bible has a whole book dedicated to the subject of acting out what you say, and not just saying empty words. Forget what it is though, it's in the New Testament. Lol I should remember it considering I read a pasage from it in front of my church only a month or so ago. Hmmm...man my memory sucks lol. - It might be James, but I'm not too sure -

But anyway, the Book basically says those who say they are Christian aren't really Christians if they don't also say it with their actions as well. You can't say, I love God and all His creation honestly, if you're planning on cursing His name and bashing your wife later on that night.

However you need to understand that people suck. And Christians are people, they are saved people, but they are still people. I for one can say that I suck probably worse then most athiests. But lucky for me, I have a saviour that has paid for me sucking so much lol. And because I have seen the sacrifice Jesus made, I now try to live a life that shows my graditude to Him. Although I fail every single day. But all Jesus asks you to do is to try your best, even if it is mostly failure. He really has made it easy to be saved, there's no doubt of that.

CyA's
 
heart - I'm sure I can answer your questions and concerns. But it would be really helpful if you could post the verses which you are refering to. If you can't then I'll try to find them myself, but if that's the case, then you'll have to give me more time to write up the answers.

Thanks heaps

CyA
 
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