Come and attack Christian belief please.

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by MarcAC
Jesus, the single most important figure in Christianity [without Jesus there is no Christianity], ...

The claim is unfounded. There is little foundation for a historical Jesus and less for a necessary one.

Originally posted by MarcAC
... demonstrated throughout the reports of his life, that ...

There are no viable 'reports', simple redacted stories composed decades later.

Originally posted by MarcAC
... He did not support the notion of women being inferior, in status, to men.

If there was, in fact, a Judaic cult leader behind the myth, one might expect him to embrace Genesis 3:16.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by MacM


Saying your belief can stand up to the hardest of attacks in not the same as saying your belief is valid or true. If you cannot answer actual bonafide questions about your belief in God then your belief is hollow and your continued faith is not a sign of the correctness of your faith, it is a sign of your obstinance and inability to accept obvious flaws in the concept that you support.

So if I can't answer bonafide questions, then my faith isn't valid. And if I can answer these questions then my faith still isn't valid? Why?

This question is based on the following assumptions:

1 - You claim your God is the creator of everything.
TWO QUESTIONS:

If number one is true then you must agree that God not only had to create himself but created time and space as well. Otherwise he would not be the creator of everything and some other creator or creators, etc., would be required.

The only things that need a maker are things that have a beginning. Now since God is eternal, w/o beginning or end, he would need no beginning. And if he was indeed created, then you create the Infinite Regress of Creators.

As far as Creation goes, eventually one must come to something that is eternal(whether it be God or Hydrogen/et al). My question to you is this: which is more likely: God, an intelligent creator, making the universe in his own order; or elements blindly creating what we see around us?

God is a spirit, and created time and space for his purposes.

If God was the creator of time and space just where and how did he create himself before he created time and space and how could he have created time and space before he created himself?

There are, in theory of course, three ways in which beings can come into existence: self-Caused, caused by another, and uncaused. Self-Caused can immediately be thrown out because something must already exist in order to bring itself into existence. Caused by Another, in God's case, can be thrown out because you then create the aforementioned Infinite Regress. Therefore, we are left with Uncaused, meaning having no maker. Just there, Eternal, no beginning and no end.

Any scenario you propose results in Creation ex nihilo which doesn't require a God

How could Creation from Nothing not require God?

I like this. Perhaps you should understand that "Infinite" is a concept and its definition precludes anything tangiable or in physical reality from being infinite. It is a matter not only of logic but of scientifc principles and specific definition of the term.

What you have just said is that "GOD is a CONCEPT but is NOT REAL". On that point we very much agree.

Something that is infinite cannot be measured, so anything scientific is thrown out here. Something infinite is beyond any magnitude we could assign to it. Even the word infinite is to put a limit on infinite. Infinite cannot be fathomed by a finite mind. Indeed nothing can be infinite in this finite world, but something(God) which is not bound by the limits of this World, can be infinite

Originally posted by Consequent Atheist
The claim is unfounded. There is little foundation for a historical Jesus There are no viable 'reports', simple redacted stories composed decades later.

The pagan Thallus argued about the darkness during Christ's death. He, obviously not being a believer, took Christ's existence for granted, as no one would argue about the aspects of a person's life if they had a reason to believe that they didn't exist.

And what constitutes a "viable report." What makes the reports of Christ unviable but the reports of others viable?

 

[Xerxes]

God is a spirit, and created time and space for his purposes.

I used to think the same way, eventually realizing that God either

a)doesn't exist
b)exists, but is irrelevant

since his so called purposes are uncomprehendable to us, I wonder if he has any. Why is so hard to accept the fact that he either doesn't care, or doesn't exist?

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by Xerxes

since his so called purposes are uncomprehendable to us, I wonder if he has any. Why is so hard to accept the fact that he either doesn't care, or doesn't exist?

Read 1st Corinthians chaper 2. It bascially says that God reveals certain aspects of his will to us. His purposes are incomprehendable to us by ourselves, but he can open our eyes to them and make them understandable

 

[Xerxes]

okay -- how does he open our eyes? drugs? show me the money.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by Xerxes
okay -- how does he open our eyes? drugs? show me the money.

I really don't know the exact process. All I know is that it given by the Holy Spirit to us. How that's done, I don't think anybody knows.

 

[Xerxes]

Interesting.

Kind of like how God gave moses the ten commandments, up on a big mountain, where noooo one was around..

 

[jcarl]

What do you mean by that?

 

[Hevene]

jcarl

I said: There is no his way, or her way, or my way, your way. We are one, he's way is our way, but there can still be many ways.

You said: What happens if you reject that way. That would make your way contradictory to my way, which would then mean that they are not one.

Oneness does not mean sameness. For instance, we are humans, as a race, we are one, but there are many of us, each one of us different.

I said: What is bad behavior anyway? Good and bad are your judgements on things, depending on your current understanding of life. They change as you evolve.

You said: But here's the thing: I know of no animal who has morals and such. If we indeed evolved, then where did we pick these traits up?

What are morals? Morals are beliefs applied. They change from time to time across history, and from culture to culture, that is the ways in which beliefs are applied change. We have free wills, we have the ability to think and decide for ourselves which other animals don't have at the moment. We have created a social construciton call "morals", and they shift, even though many of us say they don't.

There must be a standard. Otherwise you wouldn't know that anything would be relative. You know something has moved when you compare it to something that is not moving. When you're in a car with a book, you and the book are moving at the same speed, therefore you don't notice that the book is going 70 MPH. You only realize that you're moving when you look at side and see your car passing the world by.

There is a standard. Love is all there is. Everything that is not love is created by us to experience love. In the absence of which that is not, which that is... is not.

 

[Xerxes]

I'm talking about the ambiguity of a personal God. Like I said, I used to think the same way as you -- that God has mysterious ways. Then I realized, after really trying to believe, that if God does exist (which is just as probably as him not existing,) then he doesn't give a shit.

Anything which makes you come to believe in God is a personal creation. People who have been through a lot, like drug addicts for example, tend to be 'born again,' or find faith to comfort themselves. I admit, it can be nice (and sometimes effective) believing that you have a personal shield guarding you - a holy spirit or guarian angel, but its hiding from the truth by making things more complicated and less understandable then they are.

 

[Hevene]

The only things that need a maker are things that have a beginning. Now since God is eternal, w/o beginning or end, he would need no beginning. And if he was indeed created, then you create the Infinite Regress of Creators.

I agree with the part that God is eternal. God is life and life has no beginning just like life has no end. there are no straight lines in the universe, but circles. Everything goes around this circle - the circle of life.

 

[Hevene]

It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not. If you believe in life, it's the same thing. Whether you believe God is an intelligent being, or for me: energy, everything that is and everything that is not, the effect on us is the same. There is no right or wrong, but what works and what doesn't. If the God in which you believe in serves you, then keep believing in it, if not, alter it to suit your new purpose. A change in perception can alter your experience and experience is what we are here for.

 

[Xerxes]

True.

Personally, I always thought of God as being the void.

 

[Hevene]

 

[MacM]

icarl,

So if I can't answer bonafide questions, then my faith isn't valid. And if I can answer these questions then my faith still isn't valid? Why?

ANS: It does seem to be a bit of a problem doesn't it.

The only things that need a maker are things that have a beginning. Now since God is eternal, w/o beginning or end, he would need no beginning. And if he was indeed created, then you create the Infinite Regress of Creators.

ANS:Your claim that God is eternal is a flawed assumption.

To be eternal with no beginning, one must have accumulated an infinite amount of time. I would assume you believe time exists and is real. The simple fact is that scientifically and by definition no tangiable or physical thing which is finite can become infinite. So if time is real then it cannot also have become infinite.

Your God cannot be eternal without a beginning and also be real. If you agree that he is merely a concept without any physical reality then an oonly then can he also become eternal.

It is also a very distorted suggestion that anything can have always existed and therefore was never created. You really should think a bit more slowly about what you are claiming. It is nonsensical and impossible.

Lastly for your suggestion to even be complete you would lalso have to have claimed time and space were eternal otherwise you God would have had no jplace and without time could not have created anything.

Since they too must have been eternal (flawed for the same reasons given above) then your God wasn't the creater of everything.

As far as Creation goes, eventually one must come to something that is eternal(whether it be God or Hydrogen/et al). My question to you is this: which is more likely: God, an intelligent creator, making the universe in his own order; or elements blindly creating what we see around us?

ANS: There is no need for eternal assuming there was an enception. Before such enception would be timeless, not eternal or infinite time.

It is not a case of more likely but of actually providing an answer. Your God theory provides no answers. It is nothing more than the insane criminal when he says "The Devil made me do it".

Your comments about "blindly" merely shows your lack of scientific methodology.

God is a spirit, and created time and space for his purposes.

ANS: BOY I love this.! God is eternal (Infinite accumulation of time) and yet he creates time. How did he exist eternally before he created time?

There are, in theory of course, three ways in which beings can come into existence: self-Caused, caused by another, and uncaused. Self-Caused can immediately be thrown out because something must already exist in order to bring itself into existence.

ANS: That unfortunately describes your God but go ahead.

Caused by Another, in God's case, can be thrown out because you then create the aforementioned Infinite Regress.

ANS: As you can see above you already have since your God cannot have existed eternally since you claim he created time. That means you are not considering time to also have been eternal, hence he can not be eternal but if you claim time has been eternal then he is no longer the creator of everything.

Seems to be some circular logic going on her don't you think?

Therefore, we are left with Uncaused, meaning having no maker. Just there, Eternal, no beginning and no end.

ANS: Wrong again. Without causation does not imply or require eternal with no beginning or end.


N-------->(+s)+(-s); where "N" is "Nothingness, defined as absence of time and space) and +/-s are equal but opposite "Somethings". This shows mathematically that our existance can be explained as a bifurcation of Nothing into Something existing.

Further studies have found that the amount of mass and eneregy in the universe is exactly equal to the amount of gravity energy in the universe. That is if you add up all mass and energy (+s) and all gravity (-s) the net energy of the universe is exactly equal to ZERO.

We came into existance from borrowed energy, conservation is balanced by creating negative energy at the same time.

Look it up. The net energy of the universe IS ZERO. We came from nothing and will one day most likely once again become nothing.

How could Creation from Nothing not require God?

ANS: See immediately above.

Something that is infinite cannot be measured, so anything scientific is thrown out here. Something infinite is beyond any magnitude we could assign to it. Even the word infinite is to put a limit on infinite. Infinite cannot be fathomed by a finite mind. Indeed nothing can be infinite in this finite world, but something(God) which is not bound by the limits of this World, can be infinite

ANS: False conjecture. You haven't even gotten him into existance much less made him infinite. You really do need to understand these scientific terms before you toss them around.

Claiming something as being infinite automatical makes it a concept devoid of any physical reality. The last time I checked I thought our universe was physical and real and you would have it created by a concept which is not and canot become real?

Think again, you are over 99 cents short of a dollar..

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by MacM
icarl,

ANS: It does seem to be a bit of a problem doesn't it.

Yes, it is a problem. In your eyes there can be no way that my faith can be made valid. If it falls, it obviously isn't valid; yet it stands it's just the same. Why/How is that? I really want to know how this can be.

ANS:Your claim that God is eternal is a flawed assumption.

To be eternal with no beginning, one must have accumulated an infinite amount of time. I would assume you believe time exists and is real. The simple fact is that scientifically and by definition no tangiable or physical thing which is finite can become infinite. So if time is real then it cannot also have become infinite.

To begin, one cannot "accumulate" an infinite amount, lest it actually become finite. An infinite amount just is.

Now as far as God is concerned, He is timeless. He is independent of time. Time, something that is indeed finite. does not affect Him. Same goes for space. Why is this? Simple: He isn't of this finite world.

Your God cannot be eternal without a beginning

As opposed to eternal w/ a beginning? Just a thought

and also be real. If you agree that he is merely a concept without any physical reality then an oonly then can he also become eternal.

God isn't restrained to the limits of this world. As stated above.

Secondly, If He is nothing more than a concept, than what good is He?

It is also a very distorted suggestion that anything can have always existed and therefore was never created.

If something is eternal, then it is impossible by definition for it to have a beginning.

And by "created" I mean was never caused. Everything that needs that exists doesn't need a cause; everything that has a beginning does though.

Lastly for your suggestion to even be complete you would lalso have to have claimed time and space were eternal otherwise you God would have had no jplace and without time could not have created anything.

Not necessarily for the aformentioned reasons.

ANS: There is no need for eternal assuming there was an enception. Before such enception would be timeless, not eternal or infinite time.

To be timeless is to be infinite/eternal. Time has no effect on eternity b/c time is finite, while eternity is infinite. Something infinite cannot be grasped by finite things.

It is not a case of more likely but of actually providing an answer. Your God theory provides no answers.

The God theory provides an answer (God) that you obviously don't accept. Thy will be done.

ANS: BOY I love this.! God is eternal (Infinite accumulation of time) and yet he creates time. How did he exist eternally before he created time?

Simple: he's timeless.

ANS: That unfortunately describes your God but go ahead.

No, it's logically impossible for something to create itself. Something had to exist beforehand in order to create itself. It's like pulling your sock inside out and saying a sock was created.

This doesn't describe my God because he wasn't created.

ANS: As you can see above you already have since your God cannot have existed eternally since you claim he created time. That means you are not considering time to also have been eternal, hence he can not be eternal but if you claim time has been eternal then he is no longer the creator of everything.

Seems to be some circular logic going on her don't you think?

Was this supposed to be a refutation of the following statement:

Originally posted by JCarlCaused by Another, in God's case, can be thrown out because you then create the aforementioned Infinite Regress.

ANS: Wrong again. Without causation does not imply or require eternal with no beginning or end.

If you have no cause, then what else could there be if not eternal?

N-------->(+s)+(-s); where "N" is "Nothingness, defined as absence of time and space) and +/-s are equal but opposite "Somethings". This shows mathematically that our existance can be explained as a bifurcation of Nothing into Something existing.

Further studies have found that the amount of mass and eneregy in the universe is exactly equal to the amount of gravity energy in the universe. That is if you add up all mass and energy (+s) and all gravity (-s) the net energy of the universe is exactly equal to ZERO.

We came into existance from borrowed energy, conservation is balanced by creating negative energy at the same time.

Look it up. The net energy of the universe IS ZERO. We came from nothing and will one day most likely once again become nothing.

Ok so we're created from nothing, but there's nothing to make something out of nothing? Is my interpretation correct?

ANS: False conjecture. You haven't even gotten him into existance much less made him infinite.

What I've done is show that God cannot exist within this finite world.

You really do need to understand these scientific terms before you toss them around.

Alright then. Help me out here.

What does infinite mean? w/ a reference would be nice.

Think again, you are over 99 cents short of a dollar.. [/B]

Wow I thought you'd say I'd be 100 cents in debt. Did I find that one cent between the seats?

 

[P. M. Thorne]

CONSEQUENT ATHEIST SENIOR MEMBER 1212 posts..

From your posting..

[quote: from jcarl "........without Jesus there is no Christianity]
..........................
YOU ANSWERED: The claim is unfounded. There is little foundation for a historical Jesus and less for a necessary one.
..........................

There is an obvious error in reasoning here, and I am somewhat convinced that you will agree, once you reconsider. In all due respect to your knowledge and opinions, the following statement is true: "...without Jesus there is no Christianity. I explain my point:

. Christian means "follower of Christ."

. Christianity is the name of the religion composed of Christians.

You are implying that the whole Christianity thing is probably based on a hoax, but you said something quite different. The way jcarl worded his statement is true, whether Christianity is composed of anyone following anybody, or not. Unless one exists he can have no followers.
____________________________

You also said that there is little foundation in history that Jesus was a real person. (I think I have your meaning clear on this.) So, I supposing this could possibly be based on the that -YOU- have found little historical evidence that Jesus existed. There is evidence, and more than a little, unless you consider those who say so, lyers. Considering how many scholars and theologians, since his (reported) existance, perhaps you see no evidence because you prefer reading only material that says there is no evidence.

If I am wrong about your conclusions, that is okay. I know you are usually fairly reasonable, and though I have not checked too extensively, you do not seem to be rude, but a bit abrupt with this one.

Doubt is good, but it is not such good place to stop.

Best wishes. PMT

 

[Quantum Quack]

" from out of no-where and nothing came something, that something was called time and with in this time came an idea, a universal idea and idea called God."

 

[P. M. Thorne]

Hi Q.Q.


Hope you had a great Christmas. PMT

 

[Quantum Quack]

I did at that P.M.T and you? I trust you did also?