Christlam?
- Thread starter jusmeig
- Start date
Hi again,
Yes I think Jenyar and ConsequentAtheist should fight it out gladiator style. However I must stress that objective discussion is not possible with a member of a religion. Every post in the religious forum proves it.
If I was a Christian or a Muslim, and needed to put a point across, I could just paste a load of texts proving excatly what I was saying. The problem is you believe this text to be true. (ie you believe in literal translations).
Need I say more, debate not argue. Huge columns of text are not going to do....
Jus
Yes I think Jenyar and ConsequentAtheist should fight it out gladiator style. However I must stress that objective discussion is not possible with a member of a religion. Every post in the religious forum proves it.
If I was a Christian or a Muslim, and needed to put a point across, I could just paste a load of texts proving excatly what I was saying. The problem is you believe this text to be true. (ie you believe in literal translations).
Need I say more, debate not argue. Huge columns of text are not going to do....
Jus
yeh.. i think we've hit rock bottom with this thread..
Well, this was a thread about religion. If it was about science, would you have something against someone who quotes lots of equations to demonstrate his view?
I know I quote a lot, and it isn't meant to prove itself true. But if I defend a religious view or dogma I have to provide proof from the religion in question. Such as when I am accused of being a polytheist when it isn't true, or when I have to correct misconceptions. This thread wasn't about wether God exists or doesn't.
QED?
I know I quote a lot, and it isn't meant to prove itself true. But if I defend a religious view or dogma I have to provide proof from the religion in question. Such as when I am accused of being a polytheist when it isn't true, or when I have to correct misconceptions. This thread wasn't about wether God exists or doesn't.
QED?
Jus postulated that both islam and christianity are the same in their core.
Therefore he basically suggested l to take away the details and just look at the essence. A single line in the bible or koran might be considered to be a detail and quoting details to show the core essence might not be what he is looking for.
Therefore he basically suggested l to take away the details and just look at the essence. A single line in the bible or koran might be considered to be a detail and quoting details to show the core essence might not be what he is looking for.
Hi again,
I thought we had stuck a knife in this post. But sure what the hell:
The post originally stated that the core values of Islam and Christianity are almost identicle. I did this to attempt to show people that the details held within the Koran and the Bible are the same. It is not divine information, but just different sets of rules to live and die by.
As regards the books themselves, I would place The Lord of the Rings as having more spiritual significance for me than these books. At least Tolkien was alive in our life time! I was simply stating: Just because it says in the bible/koran that a certain thing is correct, or happened....does not mean that it DID happen, regardless of your belief. Many of the historical events in these books are not possible, however this is not in dispute in this post. My idea was to strip away the names, places and dates....and you are left with a very similar set of rules at the core of every religion. Let the fables be fables. They are not divine, do not live your life in fear of something that will not reveal itself until you die...this makes no sense!
Jus
I thought we had stuck a knife in this post. But sure what the hell:
The post originally stated that the core values of Islam and Christianity are almost identicle. I did this to attempt to show people that the details held within the Koran and the Bible are the same. It is not divine information, but just different sets of rules to live and die by.
As regards the books themselves, I would place The Lord of the Rings as having more spiritual significance for me than these books. At least Tolkien was alive in our life time! I was simply stating: Just because it says in the bible/koran that a certain thing is correct, or happened....does not mean that it DID happen, regardless of your belief. Many of the historical events in these books are not possible, however this is not in dispute in this post. My idea was to strip away the names, places and dates....and you are left with a very similar set of rules at the core of every religion. Let the fables be fables. They are not divine, do not live your life in fear of something that will not reveal itself until you die...this makes no sense!
Jus
You cannot reduce something as complex as the Bible or Koran into a rule-of-the-thumb handbook and say they are the same... then yes, Lord of the Rings might teach the same morals. Tolkien was a Catholic, remember?
When someone can rescue you from drowning, do you fear or love them?
When someone can rescue you from drowning, do you fear or love them?
maybe LOTR will grow into a religious text. It already has cult status. Soon the geek boys will turn it into a bible.
Jenyar,
I understand that this is getting off the point a bit, and may infuriate the bible bashers but what the hell........
Explain to me why the Bible or Koran are any more complex than The Lord of the Rings, bearing in mind of course that the bible and koran are based on some histrical evidence that can be proven?
Had the Lord of the Rings been written 1000 years b4 the bible and koran, would the texts within be seen as divine, as it teaches the core moral values that the bible would later teach, and pass over as the word of gOd?
Humans had learned the values thought in the bible and koran 1000's of years before their conception! AM I THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET THAT SEES THIS! If you remove the moral teaching of a religion, what is left? NOTHING, but a collection of fables, names and dates that have absolutly no significance or divine influnece!
I understand that this is getting off the point a bit, and may infuriate the bible bashers but what the hell........
Explain to me why the Bible or Koran are any more complex than The Lord of the Rings, bearing in mind of course that the bible and koran are based on some histrical evidence that can be proven?
Had the Lord of the Rings been written 1000 years b4 the bible and koran, would the texts within be seen as divine, as it teaches the core moral values that the bible would later teach, and pass over as the word of gOd?
Humans had learned the values thought in the bible and koran 1000's of years before their conception! AM I THE ONLY ONE ON THE PLANET THAT SEES THIS! If you remove the moral teaching of a religion, what is left? NOTHING, but a collection of fables, names and dates that have absolutly no significance or divine influnece!
Re: Re: Re: Christlam?
it is easier to start a war over religion than over the length of womens skirts (which is usually religion based).
it is easier to start a war over religion than over the length of womens skirts (which is usually religion based).
Lord of the Rings pays homeage to Christian principles. The use of magic is underemphasized in preference to bravery and perseverance, for example.
Apart from that, there is the criteria of whether the book itself claims divine inspiration and purpose, and whether its principles make a difference when applied. Not everybody gets the chance to defend Helm's Deep or Gondor, but wearing God's armour as described in Eph.6 is possible for everybody.
And why should that be? Are you saying wars are always mindless and started by gullible idiots? If my memory of history is correct, the contrary is more true: the religion always came after the backstabbing, warmongering and political agendas of influential people - as a sort of last-ditch validation. It might be because religious thinking is more common durng periods of fear and adversity, when the non-political everyman struggles to understand the undeserved turmoil he is thown in - such as after 9/11. That is when you get the conspiracy theories and supersticious explanations. It's always war first, God second.
It's not religion that makes war prevalent, it's the law of thelema, the antchrist mentality - hate.
Apart from that, there is the criteria of whether the book itself claims divine inspiration and purpose, and whether its principles make a difference when applied. Not everybody gets the chance to defend Helm's Deep or Gondor, but wearing God's armour as described in Eph.6 is possible for everybody.
And why should that be? Are you saying wars are always mindless and started by gullible idiots? If my memory of history is correct, the contrary is more true: the religion always came after the backstabbing, warmongering and political agendas of influential people - as a sort of last-ditch validation. It might be because religious thinking is more common durng periods of fear and adversity, when the non-political everyman struggles to understand the undeserved turmoil he is thown in - such as after 9/11. That is when you get the conspiracy theories and supersticious explanations. It's always war first, God second.
It's not religion that makes war prevalent, it's the law of thelema, the antchrist mentality - hate.
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crusades anyone?
Oh come on. Is that the best you can do? That ace has a faded face and folded corners... Rather use the salem witch trials next time as your grounds for blaming all wars on religion. You know what? Without politics, there would be no wars either. Without money or power or territory there would be no wars. Without people there would be no wars.
Let's move on for once. I'm sure we can at least agree on the qualities and actions that cause and accompany war (or any aggressive-destructive behaviour for that matter).
The crusades. Please.
Let's move on for once. I'm sure we can at least agree on the qualities and actions that cause and accompany war (or any aggressive-destructive behaviour for that matter).
The crusades. Please.
Turduckin, it is you who speaks bullsh*t, Lets look at the Islam Book shall we.
The Qur'an tells Muslims: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), "kill the disbelievers wherever they find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5). The Qur'an demands that you fight the unbelievers, and promises "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them" (8:65).
Very nice, eh?
Christianity is contradictive, hypocritical and very influential. Christianity and Islam are all about power, they strive to capture the minds of people and to control them, and to wipe out the unbelievers of their "God", either by conversion or physically.
Religion is the scourge of civilisation today and it is a tool for war.
Oh surprise surprise, I’ve just heard on the news that Islamic suicide bombers are to hit the UK soon.
Religion is evil itself. The world would be a better place without it.
BTW Jenyar, don't play down the crusades, they were evil. Don't you dare glorify or condone them.
Hi all,
It appears once again that one of my posts is degrading into the old Islam vs Christianity battle, despite the fact I stated at the top that I do not welcome blind believers of a religion, as they cannot argue objectivly.
Turduckin, I have read the 'The Silmarillian'. I read it years before I read the bible. And I found it to be a more coherent read....which says alot.
Vienna, your views are remarkably short sighted. Of course Christianity and Islam will join together. This will occur when we find life on another planet. To believe we are the only beings in our universe is perverse ignorance of the highest order! Both Christianity and Islam have no fail safe written into their texts to account for such an occurance, and with frozen water found on Mars....I would be holding my breath if I was a man of religion.
Can anyone tell me why the most constructive coherent conversation on this website is generated mainly by agnostics and atheists. Well I would argue that people blinded and submerged in their "faith" do not have the ability to view other religions, and therfore other cultures, objectivly.....This is very sad indeed. If this is the result of religion I think you believers should question your faith in a serious way!!!!
Jus
It appears once again that one of my posts is degrading into the old Islam vs Christianity battle, despite the fact I stated at the top that I do not welcome blind believers of a religion, as they cannot argue objectivly.
Turduckin, I have read the 'The Silmarillian'. I read it years before I read the bible. And I found it to be a more coherent read....which says alot.
Vienna, your views are remarkably short sighted. Of course Christianity and Islam will join together. This will occur when we find life on another planet. To believe we are the only beings in our universe is perverse ignorance of the highest order! Both Christianity and Islam have no fail safe written into their texts to account for such an occurance, and with frozen water found on Mars....I would be holding my breath if I was a man of religion.
Can anyone tell me why the most constructive coherent conversation on this website is generated mainly by agnostics and atheists. Well I would argue that people blinded and submerged in their "faith" do not have the ability to view other religions, and therfore other cultures, objectivly.....This is very sad indeed. If this is the result of religion I think you believers should question your faith in a serious way!!!!
Jus
are you saying wars are not fought based on religion? are you saying people do not hate each other based on religion?
Northern Ireland anyone? Is that too faded also?
the age old battle between protestants and catholics..never heard of that?
the rupture between islam and western countries...is this not based upon religion? There are other countries too that are not treated very well by us. They respond differently than islamic countries. Not religion based? Why do they claim it then?
Are they all wrong and you are right?
spuriousmonkey,
The situation in Northern is a little more complicated theat a simple Catholic Vs Protestant dispute. There is 700 years of history behind the Northern Ireland conflict. Basically it started with an English invasion of Pagan Ireland hundreds of years b4. The sectarian problems are only rampant as the enemy, in this case the british invaders happened to be members of a different religion. It is not fair to use this example as a justification for religions causing wars. The war in northern Ireland was and still is a war of independance.
Jus
The situation in Northern is a little more complicated theat a simple Catholic Vs Protestant dispute. There is 700 years of history behind the Northern Ireland conflict. Basically it started with an English invasion of Pagan Ireland hundreds of years b4. The sectarian problems are only rampant as the enemy, in this case the british invaders happened to be members of a different religion. It is not fair to use this example as a justification for religions causing wars. The war in northern Ireland was and still is a war of independance.
Jus