Christians Need Some Logic....

[Bells]

But if he wasn't put to death and risen from death our faith would be worthless. It is eternal life we seek and we find it in Him. This is our faith.

peace

c20

Why? Do you mean that if Jesus had not supposedly risen from the dead, you would have no faith? Interesting. Especially in light of the fact that people believed in God and Gods prior to the birth of Christ.

One would think that if you believed in God, you wouldn't need a miracle such as one supposedly performed by Jesus to justify your faith.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Why? Do you mean that if Jesus had not supposedly risen from the dead, you would have no faith? Interesting. Especially in light of the fact that people believed in God and Gods prior to the birth of Christ.

One would think that if you believed in God, you wouldn't need a miracle such as one supposedly performed by Jesus to justify your faith.

It is an excellent observation but true nonetheless. If Jesus was not raised from the dead then the bible would be a lie and I would have no faith. I would be dead. No hope. There would be no God. Jesus was innocent. For God to have allowed Him to remain in the grave would have been evil. I would not love God if He rejected Jesus' life. I would have said that Jesus died for nothing.

peace

c20

 

[Bells]

It is an excellent observation but true nonetheless. If Jesus was not raised from the dead then the bible would be a lie and I would have no faith. I would be dead. No hope. There would be no God. Jesus was innocent. For God to have allowed Him to remain in the grave would have been evil. I would not love God if He rejected Jesus' life. I would have said that Jesus died for nothing.

peace

c20

If Jesus was not raised from the dead, then the bible would tell a different story. It wouldn't mean that you'd have no faith. Your faith in your God would still be the same, would it not?

Why would God have rejected his son if he had remained buried? Don't Christians believe that everyone is a child of God, so if Jesus had remained in the grave, wouldn't he still have been God's son, like everyone else is God's child? Do you reject a parent for leaving their child in a grave after they have died? Do you classify those parents as evil? I don't reject my parents for leaving my sister in her grave, nor do I consider them evil for having done so, so why would you reject God for doing the same?

If Jesus had not been born at all, would there not still be a God? Is Jesus not God's son? So for there to have been a son of God, there would have to have been a God.

One never dies for nothing. One should look at the actions that one took during one's life and not the actions they took after their death to determine whether they have died for something. Had Jesus not risen from the dead, wouldn't his actions during his life still mean something to you?

I find it strange that you would only believe in your God for allowing his son to rise from the dead. God would still be God, whether he had a son or not. He would still be God if he had raised his son from the dead or not. Didn't your God exist before Jesus, and not just after?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Bells: Why? Do you mean that if Jesus had not supposedly risen from the dead, you would have no faith? Interesting. Especially in light of the fact that people believed in God and Gods prior to the birth of Christ.

One would think that if you believed in God, you wouldn't need a miracle such as one supposedly performed by Jesus to justify your faith.
*************
M*W: Without Paul's creation of the Jesus myth, there would be no such religion as christianity. Paul, being the mythological writer that he was known to be, molded his mythological dying demigod savior Jesus according to earlier beliefs in some 16 born of a virgin dying demigod saviors. Paul wouldn't have been able to sell the story of the simple Rabbi Jesus, so he embellished it quite a bit. The dying demigod savior had to rise again to make the myth believeable so the gentiles who knew the earlier pagan myths would simply have a newer god to add to their other household gods they believed in. Had Paul not existed, there would be no christianity. Jesus was a rabbi, not a christian. He was born, lived and died, a Jew. Paul was a myth writer who sold his stories to the Gentiles, because the Jews wouldn't accept his works as anything more than fiction. Why was Paul beheaded in Rome?

Thanks for your post.

 

[c20H25N3o]

If Jesus was not raised from the dead, then the bible would tell a different story. It wouldn't mean that you'd have no faith. Your faith in your God would still be the same, would it not?

No it would not. Too much evil would have gone unchecked. I demand justice

Why would God have rejected his son if he had remained buried? Don't Christians believe that everyone is a child of God, so if Jesus had remained in the grave, wouldn't he still have been God's son, like everyone else is God's child?

Yes, but we also believe in a God of justice. I do not want those who have commited evils to go unpunished. I accept that I too have commited evils and therefore need salvation too. If God had not raised Jesus who was innocent by all accounts then their would be no hope for anybody.

Do you reject a parent for leaving their child in a grave after they have died? Do you classify those parents as evil? I don't reject my parents for leaving my sister in her grave, nor do I consider them evil for having done so, so why would you reject God for doing the same?

Because Jesus' life and ministry would have been a total lie. He would have been whipped, scourged, beaten and nailed to a cross of wood for nothing. His suffering would have gone unnoticed. Another dead man. It would not be me rejecting God had Jesus not been resurrected, it would be God rejecting me.

If Jesus had not been born at all, would there not still be a God? Is Jesus not God's son? So for there to have been a son of God, there would have to have been a God.

Yes, but they would have rejected us that live on earth. There would have been no mercy for us sinners if Jesus had not come. This is why we say it is by grace we are saved. God is love. He was bound to save us. From the beginning He predicted man's victory when He said of the serpent, "You will bite man's heel but he will crush your head". Jesus crushed the curse of the serpent by offering His blood as a payment for us, man. It was acceptable to God as payment for all sin. We humbly claim the blood of Jesus and accept the free gift of eternal life.

One never dies for nothing. One should look at the actions that one took during one's life and not the actions they took after their death to determine whether they have died for something. Had Jesus not risen from the dead, wouldn't his actions during his life still mean something to you?

No, he would have been nothing more than a neat magician.

I find it strange that you would only believe in your God for allowing his son to rise from the dead. God would still be God, whether he had a son or not. He would still be God if he had raised his son from the dead or not. Didn't your God exist before Jesus, and not just after?

It is my belief that the Father and Son are of one purpose. God is love after all. If Jesus had not risen then the law of God would be a falsehood and we would all have to accept that we perish as sinners / free men whatever.

Thank you for asking good questions.

peace

c20 :m:

 

[mustafhakofi]

why do you xians keep saying "god is love" when it clearly is not.
it can only be that you dont know what love is yourselves, if you know what love is, you know god is'nt love.
I assume you have all read you bibles. how can any of you worship such an inherently evil thing.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Let me explain it please.

Human beings have rights. We are born innocent. Children. Beautiful. Born of woman. We enter the world and are placed on a breast. We suck at that breast and receive food to make us live. We begin our lives being loved. It is surely holy? But we die! How can something holy die? Ridiculous! But we do.
We start our lives being loved. Some babies have been shot, others raped and tortured but most of us start off being loved.
But there is evil in the world. We know this yet do not wish to take part in it. We are not killers or rapists or theives or blah blah. We are scholars and artists and musicians and trekkies and blah and blah. Most of us do all right. But it isn't really allright. Cos we die. Why do we die? Cos we all from the same seed. That's why. Same flesh. Same flesh and blood and theirfore ALL have sinned. ALL flesh has sinned. You are guilty by association. You must die. God raised Jesus up to show you His power. He was saying, "I have fulfilled the law, an innocent life for a life. Believe in Jesus and be at peace in your souls. Behold I give the Holy Spirit to those who believe on Him. I am coming soon!"

So be it. Come Lord Jesus.

peace

c20

 

[mustafhakofi]

Let me explain it please. We are born innocent ALL have sinned. You are guilty by association But there is evil in the world. You must die.

duh if thats what you call a explaination for saying "god is love" WOW.
incidently I not afraid of dying, as I know it's inevitable, you make life the best for yourself and for all around you.
and I not a sinner, no free thinker is, so not alll have sinned ok.

 

[§outh§tar]

duh if thats what you call a explaination for saying "god is love" WOW.
incidently I not afraid of dying, as I know it's inevitable, you make life the best for yourself and for all around you.
and I not a sinner, no free thinker is, so not alll have sinned ok.

Incidentally, by that "inspired" theology, we must only conclude that Jesus was born a sinner since He was born at least of a woman. Any arbitrary attempt to reconcile this difficulty can just as well be applied to us.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Incidentally, by that "inspired" theology, we must only conclude that Jesus was born a sinner since He was born at least of a woman. Any arbitrary attempt to reconcile this difficulty can just as well be applied to us.

It is true that Jesus was born with a sinful nature like us through Mary but He Himself did not sin.

Through Mary we are born again through the Holy line of Jesus, the second Adam. His blood, His flesh. "Remember me" He said as you drink this wine and eat this bread. For it is my blood that is spilt out for you and my body that is given unto you.

Whosoever believes. Why is faith important? Because it shows will. With the first Adam came the sinful nature because of disobedience to God (even though we were tricked), through the second Adam whom we know as Jesus came the free gift of eternal life. If you do not believe it then you have made a choice. To be or not to be?, that is the question.

peace

c20

 

[§outh§tar]

It is true that Jesus was born with a sinful nature like us through Mary but He Himself did not sin.

c20

You obviously missed my implication. Since Jesus was born with a sinful nature then He was obviously not holy, and certainly not perfect. Unless you want to say that God (at one time) had a sinful nature..

P.S. Don't go back and edit your post or try to change the meaning.

 

[c20H25N3o]

You obviously missed my implication. Since Jesus was born with a sinful nature then He was obviously not holy, and certainly not perfect. Unless you want to say that God (at one time) had a sinful nature..

P.S. Don't go back and edit your post or try to change the meaning.

I have no intention of changing any post. The law requires a life for a life. A lamb's blood could never really atone for a man's life. A man's life for a man's life. But that life had to be spotless for the law to be fulfilled. Jesus needed to be tempted just as we are or the law could not be fulfilled. To be tempted one must be able to understand the nature of temptation and overcome it. Jesus did this throughout His whole life so that He could present Himself to God as blemishless. We of the line of The First Adam have all sinned and none of us are blemishless before God. Jesus' blood is our atonement in God's eyes. He waits for us to thank Jesus because He is worthy of our Praise. In yoking ourselves to Jesus we become like Him. He send's us the Holy Spirit who transforms us into His Image by the power of that Blood. The blood of Jesus is the Fire in The Holy Spirit that refines us like gold. Jesus is Lord. I submit to Him. I am a servant of His.

peace

c20

 

[anonymous2]

I have no intention of changing any post. The law requires a life for a life. A lamb's blood could never really atone for a man's life. A man's life for a man's life. But that life had to be spotless for the law to be fulfilled. Jesus needed to be tempted just as we are or the law could not be fulfilled. To be tempted one must be able to understand the nature of temptation and overcome it. Jesus did this throughout His whole life so that He could present Himself to God as blemishless. We of the line of The First Adam have all sinned and none of us are blemishless before God. Jesus' blood is our atonement in God's eyes. He waits for us to thank Jesus because He is worthy of our Praise. In yoking ourselves to Jesus we become like Him. He send's us the Holy Spirit who transforms us into His Image by the power of that Blood. The blood of Jesus is the Fire in The Holy Spirit that refines us like gold. Jesus is Lord. I submit to Him. I am a servant of His.

peace

c20

C20, if you are interested in another view, you might want to see how Jews view atonement. The sins which required a blood sacrifice were unintentional sins. Intentional sins were not covered by this means. Also you could use flour or money for atonement. I think prayer might even be referred to as atoning, I'm not sure. If you are interested in this view, I can provide the passages if you like. But since you seem to be strong in your faith, I doubt you are interested, so I guess I won't waste my time. I'm just saying that your view is a Christian view of what the sacrificial system was about, and not the only view.

 

[c20H25N3o]

C20, if you are interested in another view, you might want to see how Jews view atonement. The sins which required a blood sacrifice were unintentional sins. Intentional sins were not covered by this means. Also you could use flour or money for atonement. I think prayer might even be referred to as atoning, I'm not sure. If you are interested in this view, I can provide the passages if you like. But since you seem to be strong in your faith, I doubt you are interested, so I guess I won't waste my time. I'm just saying that your view is a Christian view of what the sacrificial system was about, and not the only view.

Some little ones are caused to sin with eyes open. The blood must cover all who believe for the following to be true "With God all things are possible".
Note Judas is the son of perdition because he betrayed with eyes WIDE OPEN!
He (Judas) is lost. Was bound to be lost.

peace

c20

 

[§outh§tar]

I have no intention of changing any post. The law requires a life for a life. A lamb's blood could never really atone for a man's life. A man's life for a man's life. But that life had to be spotless for the law to be fulfilled. Jesus needed to be tempted just as we are or the law could not be fulfilled. To be tempted one must be able to understand the nature of temptation and overcome it. Jesus did this throughout His whole life so that He could present Himself to God as blemishless. We of the line of The First Adam have all sinned and none of us are blemishless before God. Jesus' blood is our atonement in God's eyes. He waits for us to thank Jesus because He is worthy of our Praise. In yoking ourselves to Jesus we become like Him. He send's us the Holy Spirit who transforms us into His Image by the power of that Blood. The blood of Jesus is the Fire in The Holy Spirit that refines us like gold. Jesus is Lord. I submit to Him. I am a servant of His.

peace

c20

That still does not address my post about Jesus' sinful nature:

Since Jesus was born with a sinful nature then He was obviously not holy, and certainly not perfect. Unless you want to say that God (at one time) had a sinful nature..

 

[alain]

it seems logical to me

sure the guy died, but as far as he believed, death serving God would give him eternal paradise

 

[Bells]

No it would not. Too much evil would have gone unchecked. I demand justice

There are many more of your God's children who have done more for more people than Jesus and who were killed in probably worse ways and who were not raised from the dead. No justice was served for those people. What justice was served for the people who killed Christ? Were they all struck down dead? Wouldn't that be a greater justice? Wouldn't it be a greater justice to raise all people who were killed and who were innocent?

Yes, but we also believe in a God of justice. I do not want those who have commited evils to go unpunished. I accept that I too have commited evils and therefore need salvation too. If God had not raised Jesus who was innocent by all accounts then their would be no hope for anybody.

And yet all other innocent people remain in their graves. How many innocent people who do so much for others and who do so at their own peril are killed violently remain in their graves?

Because Jesus' life and ministry would have been a total lie. He would have been whipped, scourged, beaten and nailed to a cross of wood for nothing. His suffering would have gone unnoticed. Another dead man. It would not be me rejecting God had Jesus not been resurrected, it would be God rejecting me.

Why would his life and ministry have been a lie? How many men and women died and their lives and ministries are still going strong? Are their lives a lie? They too were killed for nothing, and their suffering has for the most part gone unnoticed. But their memory and the memory of the work they have done has not gone unnoticed. Why wouldn't the same apply to Christ? After all, Christians look at the deeds that he has done. He did not go willingly. He, like all others when faced with death or being murdered, fought to save himself. Did Jesus not say 'father why have thou foresaken me'? So do many others who have done so much for others, and yet they are left to rot.

God is love. He was bound to save us. From the beginning He predicted man's victory when He said of the serpent, "You will bite man's heel but he will crush your head". Jesus crushed the curse of the serpent by offering His blood as a payment for us, man. It was acceptable to God as payment for all sin. We humbly claim the blood of Jesus and accept the free gift of eternal life.

If God was bound to save us, he would not have allowed millions to be slaughtered in genocides since the death of Christ. If God was love, those people would have been saved. Those people were for the most part innocent, many of them children and babies, yet their bodies were left to rot.

One has to ask oneself how God can be 'love' if he can allow his own son to be tortured and killed, but then make it all ok again to raise him from the dead. One has to ask if God was 'love' then how could he sit back and let millions of children be slaughtered at the hands of other men during times of war or just because they were born of the wrong nationality and do nothing to save them. Only for everyone else, no matter how innocent or how terribly they died at the hands of others, there is no God to raise them, as he did with his own son.

If God is love, the love would encompass all people and all people would be saved, and not just his own offspring. If God was love, there would be no preferential treatment.

It is my belief that the Father and Son are of one purpose. God is love after all. If Jesus had not risen then the law of God would be a falsehood and we would all have to accept that we perish as sinners / free men whatever.

We do perish, whether we are sinners, free men or good innocent men. The only exception was Jesus. As I asked you before c20, are we not all meant to be God's children? Why give preferential treatment to one child and not the others? Especially when one looks at a baby or child, who has done no wrong, and are of pure innocent souls, why are they allowed to rot in the ground? If God was love, those innocent children would not have had to suffer and they should have risen, instead of letting them suffer pain that no human being should ever have to suffer. After all, they too are innocent and they too have been killed at the hands of evil.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Bells, It is hard to accept that innocent people suffer. It shows that your heart is right because you lament the suffering of the innocent. I too lament the suffering of the innocent. Jesus was raised at the time so that people of the day who would then go on to spread the good news could be assured that God really did have power over life and death and whats more that the ministry of Jesus would really be the hope that people needed. Not hope in this life which we all know has some terrible aspects to it but rather hope in a new place which does not have all these terrible aspects in it.
People say why does God allow suffering. I say He does because He is patient with those people who do wicked. God does not want even one of them to be lost. Jesus died having said "Whosoever believes in me shall not perish but will receive eternal life."
He was voicing the Word of God. During Jesus' whole ministry if He performed any miracle or healing or anything at all, He would give the Glory to God His Father. Now this God of Jesus, His Father I have come to know through prayer and through the Holy Spirit and yet I feel I only ever see Him through dark glasses.
I was in prayer once, seeking the heart of God and thanking Him for the blessings in my own life, when I started to see the sheer magnificence of the Universe. Every celestial object up in the heavens seemed like one giant piece of creative artwork, something like an extremely talented child may paint. My breathe was taken back a little and I said, "God, I know you to be gentle and mild by your Holy Spirit, but your power seems infinite, your works so great. I want to know your power as well as your humble spirit."
Suddenly I became terribly afraid. i actually felt my size in the universe and I felt God's size in comparison to me. The Holy Spirit was telling me not to be afraid because God was only showing me what I had asked for and I had not asked for anything bad. I became less afraid at the words of the Holy Spirit and did not fight with the incredible power that was bearing down on me. I surrendered and said "God if you do not sustain me, I will die."
The Holy Spirit restored me back to a position of strength and comforted me. My inner being had been shown a great light but I knew that I had been spared because of God's great love for me. The Lord is just that. The Lord. Without His love we would perish immediately. If you have breath, it is because of Him, if you have food it is because of Him, if you have love it is because He has shown you love, we have being because He desired it. But God is just, he gives us a 'person', that we may be like Him and be pleased with the fruits of our own labours. He made us to be His sons. Now you might say "How can one resist the will of God? How can I be blamed? How can I be guilty?" but I tell you this, God is good and you cannot please Him without faith.
Not one of us may say that we are responsible for our own births. Not one. We could turn to our mother and father and say "Here, here are those that brought me into being" but your mother and father whilst proud in you, would have to say "With the Lord's help we have concieved a child."
Human beings are wonderful but they have so many questions. Jesus' disciples knew that Jesus did not need to be asked questions because He already knew the hearts and minds of those that spoke and knew that at the end of the day, the big question is "Why are we here?". Jesus said basically "Develop a loving relationship with God first and then you will know your own worth. Once you know your own worth, you will see how God loves each and every one of you. Then you will not dare to hurt one of these little ones because you will know how precious each and every one is to Our Father. Then out of great respect and reverence you will love your neighbour as yourself in the role of a servant even as I have served you."
People often point to the old testament to show how wicked God was for wiping people out with plagues, war and so on and this bothered me and so I prayed about it.
In my prayer saw myself playing the Sims. I had spent a lot of time building up my neigbourhood. I had worked hard to keep peoples happiness levels up despite all the frustrations they face in the game. I had a happy neighbourhood. Couples were having babies left right and centre and all my sims had good jobs and were increasing their wealth in line with their needs. There were many friendships and lots of love.
Then I saw one of my favorite sims seem to detach itself from the commands I was instructing it with. It took on life of it's own. In my vision the Sim looked at me and said "Mmm, it would be good to be like you and know everything. I do not want you to look after me anymore, I want to go my own way here and do what I want."
I immediately became afraid for the Sim in question and I became afraid for the other Sim's in question. I was the one who had spent so much time building this neighbourhood up. What would this sim do now that he had free will?"
The sim in my vision, decided that he would forget going to work and steal instead. He then thought it might be good to go and muscle in on the other sim's wives. He then thought he would kill people who stood in his way. He then convinced other sims to follow him in his path of destruction. In my vision the whole neighbourhood fell apart and everything I had built up was destroyed. God said to me "Why didn't you intervene?"
I said "What could I do?", He said "Remove the threat to your neighbourhood."
I said "But he was one of my favorite sims. I had spent soooo much time getting him to a state that was happy!"
God Said "Is he happy now?"
I saw the sim again and he had the largest house and had lots of wives and everything material in the game and I said "He seems happy enough" and God said "And everyone else?" and I said "No, no one else is happy. They are afraid of that sim." and God said "How long will you be patient with your favorite sim? Will he repent do you think?", Then God said "Tell him you will delete him if he does not repent." and so in my vision I saw myself saying to the little sim "If you do not stop this wickedness I will have to delete you. You are a bad apple and you have ruined my whole batch of good apples. Give up your wickedness and turn back to me and I will restore you."
The sim looked at me and then made a gesture showing me all that he had gotten for himself through going his own way.
I said to God "He is so proud of all that he has done himself that he will not give it up"
God said "Tell him again that you will delete him if he does not repent of this wickedness!" and so in my vision I turned once more to this wayward sim and said "Why do you persist in this foolishness? I have loved you and always taken care of you and even now I am pained to delete you, but your actions have affected everyone. You have turned others against me and now I have other sims whom I love with nothing at all and they are crying out to me for justice."
The wicked sim did not care and in my vision he said "I can do what I want. I have made this empire for myself and I did it without your help. When I was under your control I had much less than I have now."
Then I said to this sim "I chose your hair colour, I chose your clothes, I chose for you a beautiful wife and I made sure you were all fed. I gave you a house and I taught you to cook and to read and I gave you every good thing even children. I even chose you your name and this is how you repay me?"
The sim looked sad for a moment and said "What must I do to not be deleted by you?"
I said "I have never wanted to delete you but if you persist with this I will have no choice. Now that all the other sims are aware of my presence, they are all crying out for you to be deleted so that their lives may be restored to what they once were."
The sim began to cry and my heart went out to him. The sim said "I give up my own way. I give up my own life. I have sinned against you and all these other sims. I have ruined this neighbourhood and have even killed those that stood in my way. I have taken things that do not belong to me, even other sims wives who I subject to slavery here in a house that was not given me but rather I forced it's occupants out with fear of death.
My heart went out to the sim because of his contrition.
I said to God "My sim is sorry."
God smiled and said "Would you have deleted him if he was not for the sake of the others?"
I said "Yes" then I said "But this neighbourhood is ruined. Everything I loved has been destroyed or corrupted by this sims disobedience."
God said "Destroy the neighbourhood and build another one. Your sims may live in the new neighbourhood that you have built them."
I thanked God for His wisdom and humbly asked him to take control of my life so that I could be thankful for the good things I was given by him. God said "I have already done it" and I wept for joy.

peace

c20

 

[fahrenheit 451]

and the new testament to show how wicked jesus/god was.
matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

as you can see Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.
like father like son.