Christians Need Some Logic....

[the preacher]

david f
I dont think theres meny people on these forums who did'nt know that.
but what does it matter if it was added later, the Bible is the word of God, as such infallible.
What!, Dont you the believe the Bible?.
then you aren't a True Christian; your a fraud.

 

[Cris]

"Science without Religion is lame. Religion without Science is blind."​

--Albert Einstein​

And in context Eistein wasn't referring to every religion but his own spiritual experiences, none of which included the concept of a personal god or childlike ideas like Christianity (taken from his quotes). His spiritual journey revolved around the wonder and magnificance revealed through the natural order of the universe via the laws of physics. From the Christian perspective Einstein was an atheist.

The translation here is that one needs to feel and experience the wonder of the universe that science can reveal, and not that there is any mystical supernatural forces at work anywhere.

 

[Cris]

C20,

They should just thank God when they dont die. This is all I say.

And what should those do who do die? Should they now thank their god for placing them in paradise or curse him for letting them die?

What does the Christian really want? To be in heaven with their god, or to be alive on Earth? Wouldn't your type of reasoning hope that your god would let you die so you can be with him and wouldn't you curse him if he lets you live?

 

[c20H25N3o]

Science is tinkering. The Creator of the photon smiles at the scientists pride. Really.

The translation here is that one needs to feel and experience the wonder of the universe that science can reveal, and not that there is any mystical supernatural forces at work anywhere.

Science is the discovery of nature by man, that human records may record the intricacies of God's creation in many many volumes of text.

What with nature having derived it's very being from the mouth of God, I find it amusing that you insist on their not being any supernatural forces at work here. Get some ointment for your eyes. They are closed shut. How many stars in the sky? Can you name them all? I tell you now God Himself has named every one! Each a unique name. Be gracious. He calls you 'son'.

peace

c20

 

[TruthSeeker]

And in context Eistein wasn't referring to every religion but his own spiritual experiences, none of which included the concept of a personal god or childlike ideas like Christianity (taken from his quotes). His spiritual journey revolved around the wonder and magnificance revealed through the natural order of the universe via the laws of physics. From the Christian perspective Einstein was an atheist.

The translation here is that one needs to feel and experience the wonder of the universe that science can reveal, and not that there is any mystical supernatural forces at work anywhere.

Wait until someone proves God with science.......




(Btw... I don't think that was really Einstein's idea. But in any case.....)

 

[c20H25N3o]

Wait until someone proves God with science.......




(Btw... I don't think that was really Einstein's idea. But in any case.....)

I can just see it now. Jesus will come back and they will drop their little notebooks and proclaim "Jesus Christ the Lord" and then promptly fall to their knees. Oh how man hates humility now. How man hates the thought that someone might be praised for paying the price for their lives, when man should just take the gift that was offered by God, His son clothed in humility and shame that man may know God's love for them. That man may not doubt an invisible God's love for them. That man may know their True Father and His Nature. The man Jesus who came as a human being, from the line of David to be an offering for sin. The wages of sin is death make no mistake here. And we have all been spared that death. We have died in Christ Jesus. We are also resurrected with Him to Glory. We are saved.

God bless you

c20

 

[Insanely Elite]

David F,
Seriously, Is there really anyone here who doesn't know the last paragraph of Mark (16:9-20) was added later?

Seriously, Is there really anyone here who doesn't know the whole of the new testament was written after living memory of of His life, teaching, and death?

There is so much nuanced discussion from Christians that interperate passages written 1000-1900 years ago. They invariably liken the cultural mores of the ancient world to the modern one. It is like the phrase 'turn the other cheek' which is an insult/challenge but turned into a pacifist expression.

That many can pick and choose passages that support their views is in no way news to those of us dudes that read the good news to see what is true.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Turn the other cheek works well as both a challenge and a prostration. Striking another's cheek in anger is what we must avoid.
But you know this surely? We reap what we sow.

peace

c20

 

[Cris]

C20,

Science is tinkering. The Creator of the photon smiles at the scientists pride. Really.

Not quite: Science is about discovery whereas religion is apathy and baseless false hope.

Science is the discovery of nature by man, that human records may record the intricacies of God's creation in many many volumes of text.

Science is how we move from ignorance to enlightenment, whereas religion is how we move from fantasy to ignorance.

What with nature having derived it's very being from the mouth of God,

Nature no more depends on the existence of gods than an ant depends on the Internet to find food.

I find it amusing that you insist on their not being any supernatural forces at work here.

So if it is so amusing you can easily demonstrate something supernatural then, right? Please do so.

Get some ointment for your eyes. They are closed shut.

It is not that my eyes are closed but that there is nothing to see. This is infinitely better than your life of deluded fantasy where you see things that are not there.

How many stars in the sky? Can you name them all? I tell you now God Himself has named every one! Each a unique name.

Excellent. Please show me this list. An Internet URL will do fine.

Be gracious.

To something that doesn’t exist? Somewhat pointless I think.

He calls you 'son'.

You should have realised by now that figments of your imagination cannot verbalise.

 

[Cris]

Truthseeker,

Wait until someone proves God with science.......

What makes you think that could ever occur?

(Btw... I don't think that was really Einstein's idea. But in any case.....)

You imply you have a deeper understanding of Einstein’s religiosity which I know you do not since you quoted him out of context. We know he had no patience for the personal god concepts of the larger religions so what do you think he meant by your quote?

 

[mustafhakofi]

c20: why are you laughing at truthseeker, because he's agreeing with fahrenheit.
whats funny.

 

[everneo]

I can just see it now. Jesus will come back and they will drop their little notebooks and proclaim "Jesus Christ the Lord" and then promptly fall to their knees.

They would like to do some experiments on him, ask few questions before deciding to fall on their knees, if he comes back.

 

[c20H25N3o]

if he comes back.

Soon!

 

[mustafhakofi]

cris
nice to see you again, you are however are floging a dead horse, if you think you could get though to c20, this person does not answer anything put to him, he thinks we all want saving.
it is easier just, to not give him the time of day, you only have to take a look around everybody has lost interest with his stupidity, we all like to give someone the benefit of the doubt. but he pasted that point a long time ago.
incidently I love your retorts.

 

[c20H25N3o]

incidently I love your retorts.

I love your sycophantic nature

Nature no more depends on the existence of gods than an ant depends on the Internet to find food.

Who does the ant depend upon to find food? Now you will say "The ant depends on no one. It is self sufficient" but if it is self sufficient why does it need to find food and why is the food there? It is for the ant of course! Who put it there? Now you will say "Nature of course. Nature put it there for the ant". Now I ask you WHY??????
How much more important are you than an ant!!!

You clever people, scientists and so on, you who despise me and ridicule me and mock me with pathetic names, you are here one minute and gone the next. You say "I am that I am" and then you die having not been able to change the day of your death by one single nanosecond. You are not God, you are man, son of dust and to dust you will return. I hear you say "We love death, we rejoice in death, we crave death" but you will not find it, instead you will find your children with hungry mouths asking their father for a loaf of bread, you will find your wives pleading with you for something new, your whole lives will be a frustration to you. Yes you will pray for death to come upon you to put you out of your misery, so that you do not have to face your families when they ask you for things. Your love for them is nothing without hope of life everlasting with them but you do not ask God for this. You rejoice in death instead, so that you may be seperated from the ones you love. How pleasant.

peace

c20

 

[Cris]

Musta..

nice to see you again, you are however are floging a dead horse, if you think you could get though to c20, this person does not answer anything put to him, he thinks we all want saving.
it is easier just, to not give him the time of day, you only have to take a look around everybody has lost interest with his stupidity, we all like to give someone the benefit of the doubt. but he pasted that point a long time ago.

Unfortunately such people are a real danger to the world and can and do gain political power, e.g. Bush. So while they are quite frustrating I feel ignoring them could also be a mistake – we must keep trying to make them see reason.

incidently I love your retorts.

Ha ha , just my way to combat stupidity.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Ha ha , just my way to combat stupidity.

And of the ant and it's food o' clever one?

awaiting an answer

c20

 

[Cris]

C20,

Who does the ant depend upon to find food? Now you will say "The ant depends on no one. It is self sufficient" but if it is self sufficient why does it need to find food and why is the food there? It is for the ant of course! Who put it there? Now you will say "Nature of course. Nature put it there for the ant". Now I ask you WHY??????

Well no I wouldn’t say anything like that. Both the ant and man are a part of nature. Nature is not something that is separate. As to the question of why – why must there be an answer? Once you realize that the question is foolish then you will see that religions that attempt to answer such a question are equally foolish.

How much more important are you than an ant!!!

Doesn’t that depend on the chosen value system?

You clever people, scientists and so on, you who despise me and ridicule me and mock me with pathetic names,

You’ll find I was merely responding to your own attempts to ridicule and despise us. Most religions and especially Christianity are essentially arrogant and condescending. Can you see your own unsavory stance in this?

you are here one minute and gone the next.

And this also applies to you doesn’t it?

You say "I am that I am" and then you die having not been able to change the day of your death by one single nanosecond.

Not quite. Through our search for knowledge and understanding via science we have managed to extend human lifespans by several hundred percent just in these past few millenia. Around 2000 years ago you were lucky if you reached the age of 30, now we expect nearer 3 times that age. Through science and technology I fully expect we will achieve unlimited lifespans within the next few decades.

You are not God, you are man, son of dust and to dust you will return.

Only if we accept the defeatist attitudes of the religionists like yourself. Fortunately there are enough of us who continue to strive to improve the human condition. Praying and depending on fantasy gods doesn’t help and never has achieved anything worthwhile.

I hear you say "We love death, we rejoice in death, we crave death" but you will not find it,

This is the cry of the religionist since they see death as a mystical gateway to paradise – the greatest illusion ever devised by man’s stupidity. As a naturalist I see life as the most precious commodity possible – you appear quite confused.

instead you will find your children with hungry mouths asking their father for a loaf of bread, you will find your wives pleading with you for something new, your whole lives will be a frustration to you.

Sounds like a scene from The Lord of the Rings – doesn’t appear to be relevant to real life.

Yes you will pray for death to come upon you to put you out of your misery, so that you do not have to face your families when they ask you for things.

Praying is a pointless activity and something I would not do. You appear to be trying to paint a dreary picture of life in a futile attempt to justify your defeatist religion. Why not cherish life and try to extend it rather than hope to die so you can meet your fantasy gods?

Your love for them is nothing without hope of life everlasting with them but you do not ask God for this.

Love, even momentary is worthwhile. Love does not depend on infinite life to have meaning. Understanding that death occurs and represents permanent non-existence is to accept reality, even though tragic. Holding the false hope that life continues in a fantasy supernatural realm is irresponsible and a tragic delusion.

You rejoice in death instead, so that you may be seperated from the ones you love. How pleasant.

You appear to have everything reversed and are quite confused. Defeating death is our greatest challenge and something that needs our urgent attention. It is the religionist that welcomes death as they foolishly believe that death is their entry to paradise.

 

[c20H25N3o]

C20,
You appear to have everything reversed and are quite confused. Defeating death is our greatest challenge and something that needs our urgent attention. It is the religionist that welcomes death as they foolishly believe that death is their entry to paradise.

I do not rejoice in death. Please let me state that for the record. I too like you welcome this life for the love that is in the world, the love of my children, the love of my wife. But I am not a fantasist as you would have me be. The human being begins as a seed. There is no need to tinker. You will never understand the code of life. Do you not see that for every thing you discover, it will open up new discoveries? For each unit of the code you discover, you will see that even that code is made up of another code and so on and so forth. As clever as you are you cannot begin to understand the mysteries of the human seed. You are scratching the outer layer of an onion, but if you keep chopping away at the onion you will just start to cry.
Your intellect will not allow you to give up. Pride will not allow you to say "This is too complicated for us. Some greater force must be at work here"
I tell you the truth, man will not discover the code of life for it is not permitted you. You hate the Christian scientist (David F for example) because they say "As amazing as the things are that we know, they all point to the fact that some higher intelligence is at work here"
Come on Cris, I am sure you are an academic genius but even you have to step down from your fantasy at some time. Can even the most prestigous scientist in the world create a butterfly from scratch? Could you have designed the ribosome from scratch? You want to say "But we are a part of Nature and Nature just is" and then you say "We are a part of nature and must change it to make it stronger". But it is a terrible arrogance and I mean that in a non personal sense. We Christians call that arrogance 'The spirit of the world'.
Let's just hypothesise for one moment that you did indeed manage to tinker with the human seed and reversed its will to die. Of course there would become a terrible population problem so you would then need to expand into the Universe. This is your plan. To boldly go etc etc. But what of those who have gone before you? Those lives that did die? Were those peoples lives for nothing? What of all the injustices done in the flesh? Do you just forget their names? Tell them it's unlucky for them? Do you not see that this is arrogance? To write off humans who have walked before you? And let's suppose you do master cold fusion or some other technology to perform space travel so that you can populate the Universe. What of law and order? Or will you change the human seed to produce flesh made from titanium or some other indestructable substance?
I love Star Trek, dont get me wrong but I know it's just a cool TV program for kids developed from fantasy. when the program is over, I have to go and make dinner and get my kids bathed and dressed for bed. I read them a story and kiss their little noses. They say "Gudnight dad" and I kiss them again giving them a little squeeze so they know how much I love them. Love is the greatest thing here Cris. Love is, was and will be. God is love and the spirit of love says "Thou shalt have no other gods but me".

God bless you

c20

 

[SnakeLord]

Your intellect will not allow you to give up. Pride will not allow you to say "This is too complicated for us. Some greater force must be at work here"

This statement says it all really. The religious man has given up - which you clearly state yourself. Whereas, also according to yourself, intelligence does not give up. While there are 'complicated' things, the intelligent seek to find answer to it, instead of just throwing the towel in and assuming any old answer will do. "god did it" is the religious man's answer to everything, and shows the lack of intelligence that accompanies "giving up".

For millennia the religious have said "god did it", but haven't actually answered anything. In the meantime, intelligence says "I wonder how this happened", and goes about finding an answer to it.

Further to which, something currently being too complicated for us, in no way justifies or implies that the answer must be supernatural. While this was expected from people that did not know the realities to lightning, it is ludicrous to see someone in 2004 acting in the same manner.