water: From what I can tell so far, to you, religion was about the rituals. It does not surprise me at all that you didn't find Jesus there.
*************
M*W: Don't try to analyze what I wrote. I've already analyzed it to death. I didn't find Jesus there -- OR ANYWHERE ELSE! I am not blaming the Roman Catholic Church for turning me away -- if anything, the Roman Catholic Church was what showed me the truth about Jesus.
*************
water: But why then do you go against Christianity with such anger -- when do you admit that it was you yourself who was "clumsy"??
*************
M*W: I'm antichristian because I learned that Jesus wasn't the messiah and that the whole idea of salvation was a myth invented by Paul of Tarsus. If I were to blame anyone, it would be the liar Paul.
*************
water: I said "you have *treated* Christianity as an addiction". Typically, addicts don't consider their doing as an "addiction" -- for the time they are addicted to the drug.
*************
M*W: The "addiction" to religion exists everywhere there is a christian church. Christianity creates the addiction. It's premise is to provide salvation to everyone who wants "eternal life." That's a basic human desire to avoid death, but the problem is that death cannot be avoided, and if we are ever able to see eternal life, it will be due to the work of scientists and not churches.
*************
water: Blaming yourself for letting it happen ... I think you are wishing you had more control -- more control than I think it is possible to have. Things happen to us, things that we cannot predict, cannot foresee. Sure, it all happened so slowly, it all looked as if we had full control and full knowledge all along -- but were just "stupid" or "clumsy". I think you are being too hard on yourself.
*************
M*W: Yes, I had been very hard on myself for being so gullible. I grieved over the loss of something I truly believed in, and I was angry that I'd been duped. I'm sure a lot of people who found the truth felt the same way.
*************
water: You were after the form, the rituals, the what can be seen on the outside. You were in for the *religion*, not for the *faith*. Religion can't give you faith. Religion can help you to come to faith, but religion is not faith.
*************
M*W: I realize that religion is not faith. I had faith, and I believed in Jesus BEFORE I became catholic. It was the RCC that attracted me, and I am sure I was attracted because of the rituals having grown up in a ultra-liberal home with no god. i was only 22 years old, still a babe.
*************
water: Buildings don't love. If you thought they would, then you were merely being superstitious.
*************
M*W: I know this. In fact, when I became catholic, it was on n AFB and the chapel was for all religions -- not just catholic. When the catholic mass was starting, they would roll out a crucifix. When it was over, they would roll out a plain cross. It was a plain vanilla chapel servicing the entire community.
*************
water: There you go: Inspite everything, inspite your being immersed in the forms and rituals, you did see that they are not all there is to religion and faith. Yet you didn't persevere in that "That's not what Jesus was about! At least not the Jesus I knew!" -- you didn't dare to pursue *your own* faith within Catholicism. I don't think it was Catholicism that stopped you from that -- it was your belief then that the forms and the rituals are essential to faith. I am quite sure one can have one's own faith, but within an established church.
*************
M*W: It wasn't the rituals that I worshipped. I felt they were something I needed in my life since I was raised in a home with no discipline. It was the discipline that I was searching for. In the RCC, however, the rituals are reminders of what the faith teaches. The rituals, however, breed addiction. I wasn't the only person who became addicted to christianity, it was everyone I knew! We all went through the motions of ritual even long after they had been scorched into our minds!
*************
water: But why didn't you stick to what you believed? Why did you give in to the pressure from the outside -- and eventually gave up what you have worked for for so long? Who were those other people to you that they could determine whether you have prayed right or wrong?
*************
M*W: It became meaningless to "stick to what I believed," because it wasn't the building or the statues or the gold everywhere, it was the fact that the whole shebang about Jesus was a myth created by Paul of Tarsus. It was the "death" of Jesus, and I don't mean the death on the cross, that came suddenly to me "like a thief in the night." Those weird folks I met up with in my early days as a christian, well, now I just feel sorry for them. They meant well as human beings, but some of them were actually perverted christians. I've always been an independently minded person, and I just didn't allow myself to fall into their twisted christianity. In a nutshell, the reason I didn't "stick to what I believed," is because I learned that what I believed was a lie.
*************
water: You have rejected Christianity for reasons that have nothing to do with Christianity.
*************
M*W: No, I have rejected Christianity for the reason that Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus!
*************
water: You have rejcted Christianity because you were too trusting, didn't take yourself seriously enough, because you didn't take your experience personally.
*************
M*W: Again, please don't even try to analyze me. I know why I left Christianity, and I do take myself seriously! My "experience" with Christianity was comforting and fulfilling, but it was the lies Christianity perpetuated that disgusted me.
*************
water: The credit that they are capable of what you did. You said you have saved yourself from being entrapped, that you have "untrapped yourself" -- why do you think others couldn't do it themselves as well?
*************
M*W: Because other's believe they have found the truth in christianity, and they refuse to read or learn otherwise. So many have been forever trapped in a circular pattern. But, there are many others who experienced the same thing I did and left christianity. Sciforums is probably the greatest truth finder in the world. There are members who have come here as dyed-in-the-wool christians and have found the truth. They, too, have been set free. My purpose here on sciforums is to bring the truth to as many people as possible.
*************
water: And you think they couldn't untrap themselves by themselves? You think they need your help?
*************
M*W: Anyone can do anything they want to do. The folks who don't question their churches or their religion are the ones who like being "trapped" just like I liked being trapped in christianity. When I found the truth, I fought it for years! Just like there are christians on sciforums that try to convince everyone else that they need to believe in Jesus, I want to reach those same people to help them face the truth that there is no salvation through Jesus.
*************
water: I am not a Christian. I have said this many, many times so far, but it seems that nobody wants to listen. You aren't listening to me. No matter what you do, you eventually cannot prevent from being outpowered and harmed. Some attacks you may back off, sure. But not all. But to say that something can be taken away from you only if you allow it -- this supposes that you are omnipotent.
*************
M*W: No, that's not what I meant. I, more than anyone, know that I'm definitely not omnipotent! Otherwise, I'd have a talk show! LOL The reality of life is that if you hold onto something whether it be a golf club or religion or one's belief in salvation, it cannot be taken away unless it is let go of. Although I fought the truth, I had already found the truth, and inevitably, I was the one who let it go. I have absolutely NO regrets. It was the right thing to do. Since then, I have no longer let my belief in my faith sway or influence my thinking. I am able to see both sides clearly. It's a release of an incredible amount of tension to learn the truth.
*************
water: If a group of people comes to rob you, rape you and kill you -- will you say that it all happened because you have allowed it?
*************
M*W: People sometimes set themselves up for trouble. I trust my instincts now instead of trusting an illusion. Your statement doesn't have anything to do with the topic here. If such a thing happened to me and people came after me and my life was in their hands, I would appeal to my innerself, where the source of all my strength comes, and I would utilize my inner strength to stare them down to protect my life. Crying out to Jesus isn't going to be heard.
*************
water: That's odd. You expected to experience salvation right there, in this life? You expected to know, in this life, how the judgedment will be for you? You are contradicting yourself. If
"We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation." then you can't say anything more after that -- but you are in fact presenting your own solution, when you say "We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well."
*************
M*W: I believe these to be opposite of what Paul taught.
*************
water: Since we are ultimately limited to our own individual experience in everything, this also means that we cannot know eachother's experiences. Someone's experience may be that he is not the only one who knows him well -- but you may not have that experience.
*************
M*W: True, one cannot really know the depth of another's experience.
*************
water: This "We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation. We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well." is *your* experience, *your* solution. Something that works for *you*. But according to "We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation." -- *you* can't say that this *your* solution will work for others as well, or is obligatory for them.
*************
M*W: No, absolutely not. My experience would have no affect on anyone else. My experience was mine only. However, what I learned from that experience, and the truth I gained from it, has helped a number of people come to know the truth about false christianity.
*************
water: And you didn't want to accept that one has to carry water and gather wood before being enlightened, and that one has to carry water and gather wood after being enlightened.
*************
M*W: Oh, I've carried all my own water and gathered all my own wood in this life, and I'm still doing it! In my time, I've also carried water and gathered wood for many others. That will never end, even if I have to crawl to do it.
*************
water:
P1: "He who has ears, let him hear."
P2: This (P1) does not only mean to listen to what comes in from the 'outside', it means that which we hear from the 'inside.'
P3: The truth can ONLY be found from within.
P3 contradicts P2.
*************
M*W: Well, I'm not the one to say this, Jesus did. Tell him he contradicts himself.
*************
M*W: Don't try to analyze what I wrote. I've already analyzed it to death. I didn't find Jesus there -- OR ANYWHERE ELSE! I am not blaming the Roman Catholic Church for turning me away -- if anything, the Roman Catholic Church was what showed me the truth about Jesus.
*************
water: But why then do you go against Christianity with such anger -- when do you admit that it was you yourself who was "clumsy"??
*************
M*W: I'm antichristian because I learned that Jesus wasn't the messiah and that the whole idea of salvation was a myth invented by Paul of Tarsus. If I were to blame anyone, it would be the liar Paul.
*************
water: I said "you have *treated* Christianity as an addiction". Typically, addicts don't consider their doing as an "addiction" -- for the time they are addicted to the drug.
*************
M*W: The "addiction" to religion exists everywhere there is a christian church. Christianity creates the addiction. It's premise is to provide salvation to everyone who wants "eternal life." That's a basic human desire to avoid death, but the problem is that death cannot be avoided, and if we are ever able to see eternal life, it will be due to the work of scientists and not churches.
*************
water: Blaming yourself for letting it happen ... I think you are wishing you had more control -- more control than I think it is possible to have. Things happen to us, things that we cannot predict, cannot foresee. Sure, it all happened so slowly, it all looked as if we had full control and full knowledge all along -- but were just "stupid" or "clumsy". I think you are being too hard on yourself.
*************
M*W: Yes, I had been very hard on myself for being so gullible. I grieved over the loss of something I truly believed in, and I was angry that I'd been duped. I'm sure a lot of people who found the truth felt the same way.
*************
water: You were after the form, the rituals, the what can be seen on the outside. You were in for the *religion*, not for the *faith*. Religion can't give you faith. Religion can help you to come to faith, but religion is not faith.
*************
M*W: I realize that religion is not faith. I had faith, and I believed in Jesus BEFORE I became catholic. It was the RCC that attracted me, and I am sure I was attracted because of the rituals having grown up in a ultra-liberal home with no god. i was only 22 years old, still a babe.
*************
water: Buildings don't love. If you thought they would, then you were merely being superstitious.
*************
M*W: I know this. In fact, when I became catholic, it was on n AFB and the chapel was for all religions -- not just catholic. When the catholic mass was starting, they would roll out a crucifix. When it was over, they would roll out a plain cross. It was a plain vanilla chapel servicing the entire community.
*************
water: There you go: Inspite everything, inspite your being immersed in the forms and rituals, you did see that they are not all there is to religion and faith. Yet you didn't persevere in that "That's not what Jesus was about! At least not the Jesus I knew!" -- you didn't dare to pursue *your own* faith within Catholicism. I don't think it was Catholicism that stopped you from that -- it was your belief then that the forms and the rituals are essential to faith. I am quite sure one can have one's own faith, but within an established church.
*************
M*W: It wasn't the rituals that I worshipped. I felt they were something I needed in my life since I was raised in a home with no discipline. It was the discipline that I was searching for. In the RCC, however, the rituals are reminders of what the faith teaches. The rituals, however, breed addiction. I wasn't the only person who became addicted to christianity, it was everyone I knew! We all went through the motions of ritual even long after they had been scorched into our minds!
*************
water: But why didn't you stick to what you believed? Why did you give in to the pressure from the outside -- and eventually gave up what you have worked for for so long? Who were those other people to you that they could determine whether you have prayed right or wrong?
*************
M*W: It became meaningless to "stick to what I believed," because it wasn't the building or the statues or the gold everywhere, it was the fact that the whole shebang about Jesus was a myth created by Paul of Tarsus. It was the "death" of Jesus, and I don't mean the death on the cross, that came suddenly to me "like a thief in the night." Those weird folks I met up with in my early days as a christian, well, now I just feel sorry for them. They meant well as human beings, but some of them were actually perverted christians. I've always been an independently minded person, and I just didn't allow myself to fall into their twisted christianity. In a nutshell, the reason I didn't "stick to what I believed," is because I learned that what I believed was a lie.
*************
water: You have rejected Christianity for reasons that have nothing to do with Christianity.
*************
M*W: No, I have rejected Christianity for the reason that Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus!
*************
water: You have rejcted Christianity because you were too trusting, didn't take yourself seriously enough, because you didn't take your experience personally.
*************
M*W: Again, please don't even try to analyze me. I know why I left Christianity, and I do take myself seriously! My "experience" with Christianity was comforting and fulfilling, but it was the lies Christianity perpetuated that disgusted me.
*************
water: The credit that they are capable of what you did. You said you have saved yourself from being entrapped, that you have "untrapped yourself" -- why do you think others couldn't do it themselves as well?
*************
M*W: Because other's believe they have found the truth in christianity, and they refuse to read or learn otherwise. So many have been forever trapped in a circular pattern. But, there are many others who experienced the same thing I did and left christianity. Sciforums is probably the greatest truth finder in the world. There are members who have come here as dyed-in-the-wool christians and have found the truth. They, too, have been set free. My purpose here on sciforums is to bring the truth to as many people as possible.
*************
water: And you think they couldn't untrap themselves by themselves? You think they need your help?
*************
M*W: Anyone can do anything they want to do. The folks who don't question their churches or their religion are the ones who like being "trapped" just like I liked being trapped in christianity. When I found the truth, I fought it for years! Just like there are christians on sciforums that try to convince everyone else that they need to believe in Jesus, I want to reach those same people to help them face the truth that there is no salvation through Jesus.
*************
water: I am not a Christian. I have said this many, many times so far, but it seems that nobody wants to listen. You aren't listening to me. No matter what you do, you eventually cannot prevent from being outpowered and harmed. Some attacks you may back off, sure. But not all. But to say that something can be taken away from you only if you allow it -- this supposes that you are omnipotent.
*************
M*W: No, that's not what I meant. I, more than anyone, know that I'm definitely not omnipotent! Otherwise, I'd have a talk show! LOL The reality of life is that if you hold onto something whether it be a golf club or religion or one's belief in salvation, it cannot be taken away unless it is let go of. Although I fought the truth, I had already found the truth, and inevitably, I was the one who let it go. I have absolutely NO regrets. It was the right thing to do. Since then, I have no longer let my belief in my faith sway or influence my thinking. I am able to see both sides clearly. It's a release of an incredible amount of tension to learn the truth.
*************
water: If a group of people comes to rob you, rape you and kill you -- will you say that it all happened because you have allowed it?
*************
M*W: People sometimes set themselves up for trouble. I trust my instincts now instead of trusting an illusion. Your statement doesn't have anything to do with the topic here. If such a thing happened to me and people came after me and my life was in their hands, I would appeal to my innerself, where the source of all my strength comes, and I would utilize my inner strength to stare them down to protect my life. Crying out to Jesus isn't going to be heard.
*************
water: That's odd. You expected to experience salvation right there, in this life? You expected to know, in this life, how the judgedment will be for you? You are contradicting yourself. If
"We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation." then you can't say anything more after that -- but you are in fact presenting your own solution, when you say "We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well."
*************
M*W: I believe these to be opposite of what Paul taught.
*************
water: Since we are ultimately limited to our own individual experience in everything, this also means that we cannot know eachother's experiences. Someone's experience may be that he is not the only one who knows him well -- but you may not have that experience.
*************
M*W: True, one cannot really know the depth of another's experience.
*************
water: This "We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation. We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well." is *your* experience, *your* solution. Something that works for *you*. But according to "We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation." -- *you* can't say that this *your* solution will work for others as well, or is obligatory for them.
*************
M*W: No, absolutely not. My experience would have no affect on anyone else. My experience was mine only. However, what I learned from that experience, and the truth I gained from it, has helped a number of people come to know the truth about false christianity.
*************
water: And you didn't want to accept that one has to carry water and gather wood before being enlightened, and that one has to carry water and gather wood after being enlightened.
*************
M*W: Oh, I've carried all my own water and gathered all my own wood in this life, and I'm still doing it! In my time, I've also carried water and gathered wood for many others. That will never end, even if I have to crawl to do it.
*************
water:
P1: "He who has ears, let him hear."
P2: This (P1) does not only mean to listen to what comes in from the 'outside', it means that which we hear from the 'inside.'
P3: The truth can ONLY be found from within.
P3 contradicts P2.
*************
M*W: Well, I'm not the one to say this, Jesus did. Tell him he contradicts himself.