Christianity as the message of love

[MarcAC]

I learned too.

Great Star of the South

 

[Woody]

SL,

I think "like a man" is more pertinent. If he had have done it god's way, all those people would have been plague infested and annihilated. To this I would add that god and jesus are two completely different beings who do not only do everything different to each other, but tend to disagree with each other.

I'm sorry SL, I can't help but chuckle:

Jesus: Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done

I was going to do a big essay on this, but I'm lazy

Good, I am too.

The OT calls angels the sons of god and humans servants of god whereas the NT says that angels are the servants and men are the sons.

I aint complaining and neither are they. Jesus says a servant has the higher position. Should I be jealous?

In the OT, god says that it is he who makes people blind, deaf and crippled etc, whereas in the NT jesus says it's the devil who does that. The list is literally endless, and if I can ever muster the energy to write it up in full it will show just how different these two supposed beings were.

Regardless of who did it, God can work with us whatever our condition might be. Some day I will die and be with Him. Yeah! maybe it will be a disease, I hope not, but it has to happen somehow. Some folks probably hope that's soon, but they ain't setting the date.

We do not co-exist with poison in our body if that's what you mean.

Yes we do. Ketones to name but one.

How about just one bacterium cell from the bubonic plague in our body with no vaccine? "One yeast cell levens the whole lump." The argument was just an analogy anyway.

Namely that we do co-exist with poisons. They don't have to be "in our body", because us sinners are not in god's body. So for the sake of your comment, we do co-exist with poisons.

We live with our poisons for a little while then we die. God doesn't have that luxery -- hence he's been around a while.

But he does. Check this:

1) Sin is everywhere.

2) god is everywhere.

As a result, he does have to co-exist with sin in his presence.

Yep, and just because he sees it doesn't mean he has to take it into himself. He will tolerate sin on earth for a while but not in heaven where he actually lives.

But yer doing fine so far Doc.
”
Yeah, I know.

Well maybe not as good as I thought.

Well here's the thing: The majority of christians are not circumcised and have no problem with eating pork - even though these are laws of god, going against which is a sin according to that very same god. Does it taste bad to you?

Check out my barbecue web site:

The Primecuts Barbecue Champions

Happy cookin!

And he (Peter) became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Aint nuthin wrong with eatin when you're famished like Peter was.

The Jews in the wilderness were supposed to eat ONLY what God provided.


I got one even better:

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone -- eh? I don't feel too guilty when I build a campfire on the sabbath (saturday).

How did he help you out? Think about it for once.. what has he helped you with?

He helped me forgive my own father for terrorizing me to the point of being suicidal when I was 6 years old. Read my reposnse to fahrenheit 451 over on this thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=770109#post770109

It's on the Entertaining Angels Unawares thread. You are invited to do my psychoanalysis over there, unless angels scare you, and I doubt they do --**chuckle **chuckle.

Do you eat pork? Are you circumcised? Do you stone prostitutes, witches and bad children to death? If not, you're a sinner. The onus is on you.. apparently.

yep, yep, nope, nope, yep, nope. I'm not an old testament Jew that received these commandments before grace was given by Jesus.

 

[water]

Great Star of the South

Alright. Love us all, and find me something too.

 

[cole grey]

Woody,
I have a suggestion for improving your guitar playing. When you are practicing, play at a tempo that is slow enough for you to evenly change chords, etc. Then, when you can speed it up to the tempo you want it to be, do that. Until then it sounds better to just play something a little too slow, rather than having rhythmic inconsistencies.
good luck with the guitar stuff.

 

[Woody]

Cole Grey,


I thought I went to the music forum and here I am at the old sci-fi nut house.

Are You into music?

Woody,
I have a suggestion for improving your guitar playing. When you are practicing, play at a tempo that is slow enough for you to evenly change chords, etc. Then, when you can speed it up to the tempo you want it to be, do that. Until then it sounds better to just play something a little too slow, rather than having rhythmic inconsistencies.
good luck with the guitar stuff.

Did you go to my bbq web site? that song is old stuff. Try my newer stuff over at my avatar link here on this forum, just click on my name and follow the links to my home page. I have a page over at acid planet. I actually have a song written for the first post on the entertain angels thread, it's not recorded yet, but I got the words and composition all worked out, it'll send a chill up your spine! Spooks not included!

 

[Woody]

MarcAC said,

Originally Posted by MarcAC
Great Star of the South

I think the star of the south done skeedaddled on us.

Maybe he's looking for pictures of starvin kids that have a man in 'em. It sure must be depressing thinking about all the problems of the world all the time. You know what I say, "Let God worry about it, cuz that's His job." My job is to do what he says.

I might suggest he visit every christian church in the world until he finds a starvin kid and a starvin family. That will keep him busy forever, but he aint got forever to live, poor chap!

Oh, well, I'm sure he'll come up with something wrong in this screwed up world, and then try to pin it on Jesus. All I gotta say is good luck dude! You aint the first to try it and you sure wont be the last.

People have been trying for 2000 years, do ya really expect anything to change?

Awful quiet in this neck-o-the woods where angels reside.

Peace to ya MarcAC

 

[§outh§tar]

Great Star of the South

Wow. Thank you.

Phone hooome..

 

[§outh§tar]

It sure must be depressing thinking about all the problems of the world all the time. You know what I say, "Let God worry about it, cuz that's His job."

I wonder how many more hereticswould have died during the Dark Ages alone if rationalists had accepted that buffoonery.

In fact, how many people in general would have died if humanitarians and charities followed that absurdity?

You try so hard.

 

[Woody]

Southstar,

I wonder how many more hereticswould have died during the Dark Ages alone if rationalists had accepted that buffoonery.

I dunno, I wasn't there how 'bout you?

In fact, how many people in general would have died if humanitarians and charities followed that absurdity?

What absurdity? Us people that are alive, helping people that are down and out? Perhaps you have a more sadistic approach? Or maybe you just like the Dark Ages better (where folks are more on your wavelength).

You try so hard.

Try so hard to what, keep from laughing too hard?

The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

 

[cole grey]

Are You into music?

That would be a tremendous understatement. Obsessed would be a better word.

here is some of my stuff -
http://americansoul.net/colegreypage.htm

I have a webpage with pieces of those, and other, songs, but I put up some full tracks on this page...

Anyway, I know all of this is beyond off topic, but I've been playing forever, I just thought I'd offer some advice.

 

[wesmorris]

is that you singing?

i gotta say, that first song is kind of pretty.

very nice.

okay i listened to the second one too. fuck man, you on it.

great song.

the third one about put me to sleep. couldn't listen to it. still, you're very good.

 

[Woody]

Cole Grey,

Anyway, I know all of this is beyond off topic, but I've been playing forever, I just thought I'd offer some advice.

Cole, my man, music is always on topic with me.

Thanks much for the advice. The song you listened too was recorded a couple of years ago, and yes you are right, I do need to work on my timing some. Check out my acid planet web site:

Woody's Stuff

It's more up to date.

Grey, You know about heaven: there are two things that will be going on all the time: one is music the other is feasting. Of course there's going to see Jesus up there too, bless Him, the life of the party as it were. How long do you think it will take to know 100s of millions of people like a brother or sister. Then we get to meet all the angels too. I'm ready for the party, I got the feasting part worked out on my barbecue web page, but I'm still coming up the learning curve on my music web page.

 

[cole grey]

woody,

my comment was directed towards the song on the acid webpage called "what could have been".
But I can barely cook toast, so there is plenty of room for all of us to progress, in many other ways too (as you know).

The most important thing is to keep playing as much as you can. It is funny how, when people stop playing an instrument, they just don't ever seem to get any better at it.



WES, thanks. That music is me singing too.
Regarding our discussion on god did it - The rock song on that page, is pretty descriptive of part of the spiritual process I have gone through/ am going through. Maybe you could ascertain from the song that, when I am saying God feels light years away, it doesn't necessarily mean that I am totally lacking faith at that moment. It just isn't that simple.
Maybe you could respond to the above idea on that thread if you are still interested in continuing, because I think there is still a fundamental difference in our views on what faith is, and therefore what the results of having faith are.

 

[Woody]

Grey,

I listened to the "light years" song and the first one too -- cool

It sounds "Creedish". I take it that you are somewhere in your 20s by the voice?

What electric axe are you using?

Here's a sound demo on my next axe,I'll be getting in the next few weeks:

Angello Janotti's Carvin AE-185 demo

It takes a few minutes to download. This is such a versatile semi hollow electric thinline.

 

[water]

M*W: I pursued christianity, I admit it, and I'll tell you about the experience I had that led me in the direction of christianity. I had just moved into a new house, and I was out in my driveway watching my son play on his hot wheels. I heard someone speak to me. I thought a neighbor must have been outside or something. I turned around -- all the way around, but no one was there! When I realized what I had heard, it stunned me, and I was terribly confused. The voice I heard said, "I died for you." Of course, I knew about christianity. After all, I had gone to a Baptist University and taken many theology classes. The religion just hadn't been a part of my life. I told my then husband about the voice I heard, and he said that was Jesus talking to me! Yeah, right! He never pushed me into christianity, because he himself had fallen away a long time before we knew each other. Religion was absolutely NEVER discussed in my home growing up, so there was no pressure there. I was the only one in my family with an interest in religion.

The confusion went on for a few weeks until I got settled in my home. Met the neighbors who were catholic charismatics, and I told my neighbor about my experience. She invited us to their charismatic worship service every week. I ended up telling the group about my experience. They all started saying, "Amen." "Amen." "Hallalujah." "Praise the Lord.", etc. Then they wanted to lay hands on me, which being the friendly and affectionate person I am, I welcomed it. Shortly thereafter, I began taking instructions in catholicism, and after a year of intensive study, I was baptised as a catholic.

I got into my religion, but I didn't feel that I wanted to participate in the charismatic group anymore. I had negative feelings about the group but not any individual. Alone, each was a great person and friend, but together, it started to feel like a witch coven or occult mass of sorts. I didn't have comfortable feelings around the "group." Kind of got queasy, if you know what I mean? I felt so strange around them, that eventually I just had to politely say I was busy and stay away from them. They spoke in tongues, but I was never able to naturally speaking. They told me I needed to be "baptised in the spirit" to talk in tongues. They had indicated many times that I wasn't "spirit-filled," although I felt true devotion to Jesus and his mother, and the saints, etc. So, a baptism in the spirit was arranged by the "group," and a catholic priest came to the home for the ritual. Each of us in turn met with the priest in another room while the "group" prayed in tongues and sang in the living room.

When it was my turn to speak to the priest in private, he asked me to confess my sins. Of course, I wasn't a terribly sinful person at all, but admitted to things like impatience and the occasional curse word. I think I remember him laying hands on my head or something as we prayed. Kindly, he absolved me from my "sins." I thought he was going to dismiss me, then he said, "is there anything else you need to tell me?" I said, "no," but he pursued asking me!!! I was getting to be very uneasy with his interrogation, because I couldn't think of anything else I had done that was a "sin!" I was pretty naive and innocent in those days -- extremely so. I was afraid of my own shadow then! (I know that's hard to believe, but it's true!). He told me to "think about it," and I sat there thinking what on earth it was I needed to confess! "Think," he kept saying. Then he asked me if I was using birth control! I couldn't lie to him, but I wondered how he knew to ask me that! Then, he said, "Oh, that's okay, the church doesn't view it as a sin anymore!" That was news to me! But, I don't know what the purpose was in that. To this day, it still confuses me!

So, life went on, and I was a devout catholic. I took my faith extremely seriously! Never missed church. Never missed holy days. Taught catechism 'religiously!' Was an officer of the local parish council. Traveled and lived in Europe, visited as many holy sites as I could, Fatima, Lourdes, Never, Bourges, The Vatican, Avignon, Chartres, Notre Dame de Paris, Reims, etc. So many more in other countries that I don't even remember. I had a wonderful experience in all of them -- except St. Peter's.

Went there on a religious pilgrimage with my church. Stayed in Vatican City. Toured every inch of Rome. Got to St. Peter's with the tour guide, but somehow I got separated from the group, and started venturing out on my own, amazed with every artifact I saw! The art was incomparable to anything I've ever seen except perhaps to the Louvre. I studied every piece, and watched as other faithful approached the statue or painting, and watched their reactions. I got that queasy feeling again, just like in the charismatic prayer group. It looked to me as if the faithful in St. Peter's were like political prisoners in asylums expressionlessly walking in circles! The observation was eerie. When the monks or cardinals or whatever they were in those black robes and Guido priest hats passed, they never smiled. They looked like zombies, too. Prostitutes hanging out in front of St. Peter's propositioning priests right there in broad daylight stunned me. I stood by one of the many confessionals, because I wanted to make a confession while I was in St. Peter's. I felt like I was hitch-hiking. Every priest that walked by, I asked for a confession. Either they didn't acknowledge me, or they didn't have time to do it, or they were very rude. Not the holy place I had imagined it would be. It was not the place I'd given my soul to. All the angels and saints had a hefty presence in St. Peter's, but I expected to see more of Jesus. He appeared to be an afterthought.

Rome was rife with paganism -- something foreign to me at the time. Who were all these gods? So many of them had similar stories to Jesus! How could that be? How could anyone but Jesus be born of a virgin? How many more crucified saviors were there? It was all too confusing. I only believed in one savior -- Jesus Christ, but he was nowhere to be found in christianity.

From what I can tell so far, to you, religion was about the rituals. It does not surprise me at all that you didn't find Jesus there.

M*W: No, I wouldn't blame the knife. If I cut myself with it, I was probably clumsy.

But why then do you go against Christianity with such anger -- when do you admit that it was you yourself who was "clumsy"??

Already then, you have *treated* Christianity as an addiction -- so this is all it was for you. You are blaming the drug for you being the druggie.

M*W: When I was a christian, I didn't see myself as an addict to christianity -- just the opposite -- I couldn't get enough of it!!!

I said "you have *treated* Christianity as an addiction". Typically, addicts don't consider their doing as an "addiction" -- for the time they are addicted to the drug.

It wasn't until I was able to free myself from it to realize it had been an addiction! I'm not blaming the religion for addicting me -- I'm blaming myself for letting it happen.

Blaming yourself for letting it happen ... I think you are wishing you had more control -- more control than I think it is possible to have.
Things happen to us, things that we cannot predict, cannot foresee. Sure, it all happened so slowly, it all looked as if we had full control and full knowledge all along -- but were just "stupid" or "clumsy".
I think you are being too hard on yourself.

M*W: No, I approached christianity with an eagerness to learn, a willingness to be part of a community and fellowship. Again, my approach was very healthy from the git go.

You were after the form, the rituals, the what can be seen on the outside. You were in for the *religion*, not for the *faith*. Religion can't give you faith. Religion can help you to come to faith, but religion is not faith.

Maybe I let it become an addiction. Aside from my interaction with christianity, there were just too many "ifs" that occurred like where was the love? There was no christian love emanating from within St. Peter's.

Buildings don't love. If you thought they would, then you were merely being superstitious.

There was darkness and fear! That's not what Jesus was about! At least not the Jesus I knew!

There you go: Inspite everything, inspite your being immersed in the forms and rituals, you did see that they are not all there is to religion and faith.
Yet you didn't persevere in that "That's not what Jesus was about! At least not the Jesus I knew!" -- you didn't dare to pursue *your own* faith within Catholicism. I don't think it was Catholicism that stopped you from that -- it was your belief then that the forms and the rituals are essential to faith. I am quite sure one can have one's own faith, but within an established church.

I got that same queasy feeling just like I did with the charismatic "group." They actually told me I was "praying wrong!" That "God didn't hear me!" I found this corny, because the God I knew heard everything I've ever said! Furthermore, I believed he answered my prayers many times.

But why didn't you stick to what you believed? Why did you give in to the pressure from the outside -- and eventually gave up what you have worked for for so long? Who were those other people to you that they could determine whether you have prayed right or wrong?

M*W: Well, I happen to be a very trusting sort. Too trusting, in fact. I've been betrayed many times in my life, because I never saw it coming. Well, I didn't WANT to see it coming, so I just repressed everything that could potentially become a "betrayal." Still do that today, even! I didn't take my experience personally.

Why not?!

I think this was crucial for you, and it has nothing to do with Christianity.

You have rejected Christianity for reasons that have nothing to do with Christianity.

You have rejcted Christianity because you were too trusting, didn't take yourself seriously enough, because you didn't take your experience personally.

But you refuse to give others that credit?

M*W: I don't understand what credit I haven't given to others.

The credit that they are capable of what you did.
You said you have saved yourself from being entrapped, that you have "untrapped yourself" -- why do you think others couldn't do it themselves as well?

M*W: A long time has passed since I untrapped myself, and I've learned a lot about christianity -- more now than what I learned from within! Yes, I do presume others are entrapped by the same faith I was caught up in, and just like me at the time, they don't know it, won't believe it, and are in total and complete denial.

And you think they couldn't untrap themselves by themselves? You think they need your help?

To you and the other christians on sciforums,

I am not a Christian. I have said this many, many times so far, but it seems that nobody wants to listen.

water: I hope you are listening to yourself. Next time you get robbed, remember, it was you who allowed the robber to rob you.

M*W: One must protect themselves at all times, or at least be cautious in all potential circumstances of danger. I've had a Neo-Nazi aim a rifle at me in Germany, not once but twice. Once during a Neo-Nazi uprising in Wiesbaden, and another time at the Iron Curtain check point near Fulda. I've been robbed twice in my home. My children and I once by gunpoint, and once a break-in while we were away. I have no fear for my own life, because I know how strong my spirit is. It has led me far and wide in my life. I've done things other people can only dream about! Seriously! I put myself through school and through the USAF, and I deal with life and death everyday in my world. Believing in christianity gave me something to trust in other than myself. That's what Jesus talks about in the Gnostic Gospels -- "becoming fully human." Give yourself your own power within, let it manifest, and you can do all things. This is letting the positive energy flow through you, with you, and in you. The idea of the "trinity" Jesus spoke about was the body, mind and spirit. Three gods in one. This is when salvation comes. Read Jesus's words by the real people he spoke them to -- the people who knew him and walked with him on earth, which is something that Paul didn't do. Didn't even know Jesus. Never met him.

You aren't listening to me. No matter what you do, you eventually cannot prevent from being outpowered and harmed. Some attacks you may back off, sure. But not all.
But to say that something can be taken away from you only if you allow it -- this supposes that you are omnipotent.

If a group of people comes to rob you, rape you and kill you -- will you say that it all happened because you have allowed it?

water: So how can you say Christianity is evil -- when it was all *your* doing, entering and exiting?

M*W: I trusted it. I looked forward, futilly I might add, to salvation, but I came to realize that the only salvation I or anyone else will ever have is the guiding force within compelling us to become "fully human."

That's odd. You expected to experience salvation right there, in this life?
You expected to know, in this life, how the judgedment will be for you?

water: Whatever we do, we are ultimately limited to our own individual experience in everything.

M*W: Yes, that's all we've got. We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation. We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well.

You are contradicting yourself.
If
"We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation."
then you can't say anything more after that -- but you are in fact presenting your own solution, when you say
"We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well."

Since we are ultimately limited to our own individual experience in everything, this also means that we cannot know eachother's experiences. Someone's experience may be that he is not the only one who knows him well -- but you may not have that experience.

This
"We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation. We can only know what is ours from within. Your soul and your salvation will not come from your belief in christianity or a dying Jesus. These were Paul's ideas. Believe in yourself. You are the only one who knows you well."
is *your* experience, *your* solution. Something that works for *you*.
But according to "We CANNOT or SHOULD NOT rely on someone else's description of a savior or salvation." -- *you* can't say that this *your* solution will work for others as well, or is obligatory for them.

M*W: As I stated, I didn't "approach" christianity for an addiction, I never thought of it as such.

Back then, you surely didn't. Those who start with something don't know, and can't know, in advance, whether what tehy are doing will develop into an addiction or not.

But, it wasn't the rules and the rituals that I was addicted to, it was the whole idea that christianity offered salvation! It was the idea of salvation I was addicted to.

Yes.
And you didn't want to accept that one has to carry water and gather wood before being enlightened, and that one has to carry water and gather wood after being enlightened.

water: This is fallacious, non causa pro causa. Show that it indeed follows that Christianity is dying because it is "evil".

M*W: There are some updated statistics online, but I don't remember the website. There is one called adherents.com, but it is not up to date. Newspapers, journals, broadcasts, you name it, all over the world has been stating that christianity is dying worldwide.

No, you haven't presented any compelling evidence and explanation.

You are giving me a "We believe what we want to believe because we are too afraid to believe otherwise, because we are so brainwashed" answer.

For whatever reasons christianity is dying really doesn't matter.

YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.

If it was really the true church of Jesus Christ, one would think Jesus could work some kind of miracle to keep it afloat, but that's definitely NOT happening.

Non sequitur. It implies that humans have no choice over their faith.

water: Also, show how "christianity is the greatest evil in this world" and how "It has the power to take your mind away, and you become a blood-sucking zombie."

M*W: I believe I've already covered this above. It's not only my OPINION, but it is the OPINION of others who believe christianity is evil -- Pauline Christianity -- the one the christian churches teach! There's a consensus of opinion on this forum about Paul being the Antichrist. He diverted attention from the memory of the true christ. Then this is EVIL!

Appeal to popularity is fallacious and you know it.

water: Otherwise, those statements are just your BELIEF, NOT PROOF.

M*W: Nor can you prove Jesus even existed!!! Nor God either!!! But, hey! If you have some kind of proof, I'm sure we all want to know about it!

I am just pointing out that you wish to treat some belief as if it were a proof.

Inevitably, I offer more proof than even christianity can! I'm here, I'm alive, I've experienced it from the inside, and I've been researching this phenomenon for about 20 years.

You are nothing special in this. We are all alive, some of us have experienced Christianity from the inside, some haven't. But all of us are limited to our *own* experiences of Christianity, each of us to his or her own experience.

When I make the statement that "christianity is evil," I don't mean "it's made a few mistkes," or that perhaps the early church fathers could have "exaggerated on a few dogma." When I say "evil," I clearly mean EVIL. My statement stands as do my opinions, because you will find that I'm NOT alone in these beliefs (or lack thereof). There are many good threads archived that would back up what I have stated here.

Appeal to popularity ...

In one of the Gnostic Gospels, Jesus was quoted first-hand saying, "He who has ears, let him hear." This does not only mean to listen to what comes in from the 'outside', it means that which we hear from the 'inside.' The truth can ONLY be found from within.

You are contradicting yourself.

P1: "He who has ears, let him hear."
P2: This (P1) does not only mean to listen to what comes in from the 'outside', it means that which we hear from the 'inside.'
P3: The truth can ONLY be found from within.

P3 contradicts P2.

 

[§outh§tar]

water, why do you try?

 

[§outh§tar]

Try so hard to what, keep from laughing too hard?

As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.

 

[Woody]

Southstar,

As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.

I guess I shouldn't be laughing about a dog eating his own vomit, or his own crap for that matter. But, I apologize, I can't help but laugh! It reminds me of the dog that snatched calf patties out of the air before they could hit the ground. Maybe he thought he better eat it before some other dumb-ass dog got to it! :bugeye:

 

[§outh§tar]

I guess I shouldn't be laughing about a dog eating his own vomit, or his own crap for that matter.

As long as you brush your teeth, laugh all you want.

 

[SnakeLord]

Jesus: Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done

More than anything this actually lends support to my statement that: "god and jesus are two completely different beings", and that there is a "gods will" and a "jesus will".

As for the biblical quote: jesus is praying to god, (which is a bizarre thing to do if he is actually god), saying that he doesn't want to die - but it's upto god.

Further on my statement that they're in fact two different beings is supported many more times in the bible, and especially Hebrews where god clearly states that jesus would be a priest - like others before him, (melchizedek etc), and that's it:

Hebrews 7:21 The lord has sworn an oath he will never retract: you are a priest for ever.

If you spend some time reading Hebrews you'll see beyond any doubt that jesus isn't a god, and never has been. To deny that is to disagree with what the actual god says.

The only reason you guys want him to be is because he comes across as being a tad nicer than god. While god is happily annihilating anyone he feels like, jesus is carrying daisies, skipping through the meadows, and handing out cures to the crippled and diseased.

While god says: "No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunch backed or dwarfed, or who has an eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles", jesus does the opposite and gives them hugs.

However, he isn't a god - so sayeth the actual god.

I aint complaining and neither are they. Jesus says a servant has the higher position. Should I be jealous?

You've missed the point, (same with your next quote also).

How about just one bacterium cell from the bubonic plague in our body with no vaccine?

So perhaps then god should stick a needle in his arm or bum and then he'd be immune to the effects of sin. Bubonic plague would bother us a great deal, but one injection and it just doesn't bother us anymore. Wasn't all that difficult.. Ok, I know it's painful - but he can handle it surely?

The argument was just an analogy anyway.

What was it you were saying earlier about not using analogies? Nevertheless, it was a bad example given that poison isn't actually harmful in the slightest, (see below)

We live with our poisons for a little while then we die. God doesn't have that luxery

While I wouldn't personally consider dying a luxury, we just inject ourselves and make those poisons have no affect.

But you know, something really makes me curious. I wonder why you accept science over god. You're probably lost as to what I'm talking about, so let me explain.

Question for you: Is deadly poison deadly?

I get the distinct impression you'll say yes, and you've implied it with your "we can't live with poison". If so you've just accepted science's word on the matter. jesus on the other hand says you can drink it, and as long as you have faith it wont harm you at all. And yet, you ignore jesus, (ovbiously because your faith isn't strong enough), and accept science, accept reality. Why is that?

So all this mention of poison, when poison isn't in the least bit harmful for us - so sayeth jesus. Seemingly you just don't trust him enough.

Yep

You were saying 'no' a minute ago.

and just because he sees it doesn't mean he has to take it into himself. He will tolerate sin on earth for a while but not in heaven where he actually lives.

You're arguing against your earlier statements.

Well maybe not as good as I thought.

Do I honestly have to keep informing you that what you "think" is of no merit or value, and that you should stick to what is supported and what isn't?

Aint nuthin wrong with eatin when you're famished like Peter was.

The text you quoted explains that Peter didn't eat, saying he has never done so.

The Jews in the wilderness were supposed to eat ONLY what God provided.

This has nothing to do with jews in the wilderness, but the laws set down by god, and confirmed by jesus. Not one dot, not one stroke is to dissapear from the law.

"Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.. For I tell you, if your uprightness does not surpass that of the scribes and pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven".

I'm sure they're keeping your seat warm for you.

It's a law that both god and jesus command you to obey. Obviously you don't want to, but then that will be dealt with when the time comes. What will be your excuse? "Sorry lord, I was real hungry"?

I don't feel too guilty when I build a campfire on the sabbath (saturday).

Ok, but you know aswell as I do that how "you feel" about it is irrelevant. Isn't it about how god "feels" about it? Remember, as you said: He will tolerate sin on earth for a while but not in heaven where he actually lives.

He helped me forgive my own father for terrorizing me to the point of being suicidal when I was 6 years old.

How so? He wrote a letter for you on your father's behalf? He changed your brain chemicals and memory so you'd forget about it? He came down and said "dude, forgive your father or else"?

Forgiveness is a natural process, that can take a damn long time but will happen when you're ready.

It's on the Entertaining Angels Unawares thread. You are invited to do my psychoanalysis over there, unless angels scare you, and I doubt they do

No more so than the fairy godmother, pixies or mermaids.

yep, yep, nope, nope, yep, nope. I'm not an old testament Jew that received these commandments before grace was given by Jesus.

Don't try and use jesus as an excuse. He informed you not to infringe even the least of those commandments, and that he came not to abolish those laws but to complete them - to add to them.

You know about heaven: there are two things that will be going on all the time: one is music the other is feasting.

Man, hundreds of thousands of people all playing music will be more painful than wonderful. As for food.. What you gonna eat? Carrots and soya beans? Meat will be off the menu, as you should know. Not to mention it will be an alcohol free party.

How long do you think it will take to know 100s of millions of people like a brother or sister.

Hundreds of millions? What's that all about? Wasn't the number of people 144,000? Well in either case I just feel sorry for dogs and fortune tellers..

I got the feasting part worked out on my barbecue web page

But uhh... there wont be any meat.