Christianity as the message of love

water

the sea
Registered Senior Member
Christianity as the message of love



There is something that has always irked me when it comes to Christianity: its image of being a message of love, a faith of love.

Lovey-dovey, one might think.

But how in all this does God's severe judgement fit in? If God is loving -- why then does He sent some to hell?! How can God be so cruel to let people suffer, starve, murder eachother; how can God let tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, droughts and so on happen -- if He is to be a good God?!
Either there is no God, or God isn't loving at all. Or?

Next, we have the Christian tradition -- the Inquisition, the forceful conversions: Acts of love?



Christians, I challenge you to clear up this "message of love"!
Is Christianity indeed a "message of love and peace" -- or is this some perverted idea -- or how are we to understand such statements?
 
This might not be new but:

Ironically enough, Christianity would not be around today if it practiced what it preached.

As for God's senseless torture of his "children", we are only given this stroke of comfort by theologians: "We shouldn't dare question God's will and authority"

How convenient.

And for this reason, Christianity does survive the ages.
 
Suffering exists so that people would learn and become strong enough to stand on their own feet.
 
Yorda said:
Suffering exists so that people would learn and become strong enough to stand on their own feet.
so the poor fuckers who drown in some flood/tsunami become stronger from that HOW? :rolleyes:
 
scorpius said:
so the poor fuckers who drown in some flood/tsunami become stronger from that HOW? :rolleyes:

Those who die don't suffer, but those who lose someone they love, they suffer and become stronger.
 
My uncle died about two years ago at the age of 53, and my aunt is in the worst shape she has ever been in her life. She got really depressed, couldn't go to work, developed Leukemia, had to go through chemotherapy, and now lives with my cousin. She has luckily moved through the disease and is recovering successfully, but had to sell her house, and she now lives with my cousin. She doesn't work, she is on Welfare, and is basically living off the family's support. Ask her if her suffering has made her stronger.
 
water said:
Christianity as the message of love

There is something that has always irked me when it comes to Christianity: its image of being a message of love, a faith of love.

Lovey-dovey, one might think.

But how in all this does God's severe judgement fit in? If God is loving -- why then does He sent some to hell?! How can God be so cruel to let people suffer, starve, murder eachother; how can God let tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, droughts and so on happen -- if He is to be a good God?!
Either there is no God, or God isn't loving at all. Or?
God loves us, but He is also just. Judgment comes in where there is sin and transgression, which are exposed by laws. God's laws show his nature -- it shows us where we stand with Him, and they are readily accessible through our conscience. This is a relationship, and like any relationship it can be soured or strengthened. God gives us life; without God there is and would be no life. It is that life that we had in God that dies when sin owns us, and without God, we will die with it. Whether by natural causes or by natural causes (is there such a thing as unnatural causes?), violent or peaceful, during wars, famine, or in our sleep; we all die. We could ask why God allows it, but then we must also ask why God allows life. This earth, sometimes hostile and overwhelming as it is to us, nevertheless fostered and sustains biological life. But it is unaware of us; its forces do not act around us. It does what it needs to and gives what is has, but it is not God. We can't have nature and not need God.

There is also little doubt that there is real evil in the world. There are people who choose chaos and destruction as a way of life, and there are people who choose their own will above God's will. Now we come back to God's laws. If God's will that we love Him, and each other, were only a preference, then we could rightfully ask why there are consequences. But God requires it, love and peace requires it; fairness requires justice, and justice requires a judge.

The question is now why God allows people to act against Him, and therefore against other people. The answer is that God also allows people to act for Him, according to His will. To love and to show their character. The world isn't divided into criminals and saints, there are only people. Some voluntarily place themselves under a law, they regulate their own behaviour and have their behaviour regulated, others live according to their own law, or outside the law. What they do show who they are, and God will judge them accordingly. But we shouldn't confuse our justice with God's justice. The existence of evil doesn't mean it is tolerated, only that its final judgment is delayed.

The irony is that God is called "cruel" both for judging evil and for allowing it. People want it both ways. Just enough tolerance for a little evil, enough to allow some freedom of choice -- a quick lie, a spout of unfaithfulness, a little selfishness -- but not enough for something to go horribly wrong, not enough for the consequences to ever become fully realized. With this mentality, people remain pampered little children who know they could not bear the weight of responsibility once their sins have outgrown and overtaken them.

And the consequences for sin is death, and death without God is hell. Hell has become the symbol of everything God cannot tolerate, everything He despises, everything that is not Him and away from Him. The Jews and Christians, like Jesus himself, borrowed from sources around them to describe this state. It is because hell threatens to swallow us alive, because the reality of sin has overtaken us and guilt and fear threatens us, that we need God's love (Ps. 40:11-13), and why Christ answered with it. It is when we confess our sin and admit our need by turning to God ("repenting"), that we face God in humility and see His love clearly -- only then do we accept it, and can we express it and let it be the light of our lives.

Next, we have the Christian tradition -- the Inquisition, the forceful conversions: Acts of love?
Obviously not. Although atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are not automatically more evil than those committed under any other name, they are evidence of the same degeneracy, and the people involved are no doubt subject to the same judgment. The criterium will not be whether one professed to know God, but whether God in fact knows you. They had 1 Corinthians, they knew what it said:
1 Corinthians 8:3
But the man who loves God is known by God.​
That those acts of intolerance were motivated by religion in spite of the Christian message makes their condemnation all the more deserved. Aren't those who judge and condemn using pre-Christian and non-Christian arguments effectively ignoring Christ? Drunk with the power of the Roman empire behind them, many Christians committed worse sins than those they professed to have been saved from. They continued the Roman tradition. They were "senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless" (Romans 1:31).

What we should learn from such examples is not to confuse man's application of justice (or lack of it) with God's judgment. That we can judge such crimes with some objectivity is a clue that we rely on a higher justice, but it should also be a clue that we should not rely too much on our own objectivity. It's that "superiority" that would deny that we will be judged by the same measure we use. God has the final word.
Christians, I challenge you to clear up this "message of love"!
Is Christianity indeed a "message of love and peace" -- or is this some perverted idea -- or how are we to understand such statements?
This "message of love" is based on a shallow understanding of the Bible, and more specifically a misunderstanding of Christ himself. The hippies also advocated "love and peace", yet their 'message' was far removed from Christianity.

Jesus did not preach love first, He preached judgment and repentence. He was the answer to the problem posed by the law: are you perfect? He was God's answer to the problem of suffering and injustice. When we suffer, we do not want scientific reasons and philosophical explanations, we want love, care, and healing. The healthy do not need a doctor. If you are perfect, you do not expect punishment or fear justice, but no perfection makes you immune to being a victim of sin or death. It's no coincidence that we feel life at its most glorious and meaningful when experience love, not when our conscience is clearest.

While we focus on the ideal, on "heaven", the contrast of suffering, pain and injustice become shockingly evident and offensive. But without such a backdrop we would not notice it. Even the word "conscience" means "with knowledge". In fact, we are so confident in our ability to discern between right and wrong, that we would even hold God to it if we could. But if we put man up as the ideal, the individual becomes supreme and the law loses, and if we put the law up as the ideal, control and authority becomes supreme and man loses; there is no man just or powerful enough to trust with enforcing the world.

People question God's wisdom for choosing to suffer with us and for us, rather than simply take us out of the world or "fixing" it (us). But instead of admitting defeat -- as if God cannot deal with suffering or imperfection and therefore neither can we -- God came to be with us. In the first place, He became sin for us, satisfying the requirement of perfect law, and He gave us the comfort and hope of knowing that our suffering is not in vain. Now He is not only waiting at the other end of life -- the perfect, righteous and enlightened end -- He also came under us, below us, to the death-end, to patiently support and catch us when we fall. So God is the beginning and the end, encompassing all. Everything from the worst sinner to the angels themselves. This is His love: that He enabled, not disabled us; gave meaning, not sidestepped it; He did not take away the victory from us, and through Christ we never have an excuse to admit defeat...
Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​
This frees us from whatever we fear, and permits us to love. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." If we have to be freed at such a terrible cost, then it must mean that what we must be freed from is otherwise very real and threatening.

The law:
Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.​
The love:
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.​
 
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The meaning of suffering is not that it "makes you stronger". That's looking for reasons where there aren't any.
 
And remember people, if you are bad not only will you be punished - but your children, and your childrens children, and your childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens childrens children. They will be punished for your sins.

So sayeth god.
 
Jenyar: God loves us, but He is also just.
*************
M*W: You know, Jenyar, for nearly four years now I have been reading your posts, and it is becoming more and more obvious that you are consumed by your fantasy god. You believe you know how your god feels and what he thinks about humanity. You even appear to have an inside voice of your god's judgment of sin. You've created this image of god to suit your religious addictions. That's sad, because ultimately you are not existing in a state of conscious reality.
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Jenyar: Judgment comes in where there is sin and transgression, which are exposed by laws. God's laws show his nature -- it shows us where we stand with Him. This is a relationship, and like any relationship it can be soured or strengthened. God gives us life; without God there is and would be no life. It is that life that we had in God that dies when sin owns us, and without God, we will die with it. Whether by natural causes or by natural causes (is there such a thing as unnatural causes?), violent or peaceful, during wars, famine, or in our sleep; we all die. We could ask why God allows it, but then we must also ask why God allows life. This earth, sometimes hostile and overwhelming as it is to us, nevertheless fostered and sustains biological life. But it is unaware of us; its forces do not act around us. It does what it needs to and gives what is has, but it is not God. We can't have nature and not need God.
*************
M*W: You fantasize knowing god's 'nature,' and this is ridiculous. This even goes beyond reality! Please explain to the members of this forum god's 'nature.' We'd all like to know how the insane perceive god.
*************
Jenyar: There is also little doubt that there is real evil in the world. There are people who choose chaos and destruction as a way of life, and there are people who choose their own will above God's will. Now we come back to God's laws. If God's will that we love Him, and each other, were only a preference, then we could rightfully ask why there are consequences. But God requires it, love and peace requires it; fairness requires justice, and justice requires a judge.
*************
M*W: I can't help but laugh when I read your posts, and believe me, the only reason I read your posts is for a laugh! You write as if you are god's lawyer. You're explaining how god works! You try to defend god's 'preferences,' even those with 'consequences!' It's ludicrous.
*************
Jenyar: The question is now why God allows people to act against Him, and therefore against other people. The answer is that God also allows people to act for Him, according to His will.
*************
M*W: Here, you're speaking for your fantasy god. How the hell do you know who/what god is, and why do you fake your knowledge/perception of a god? You can't even prove a god exists -- but it truly does exist -- in your mind!
*************
Jenyar: To love and to show their character. The world isn't divided into criminals and saints, there are only people. Some voluntarily place themselves under a law, they regulate their own behaviour and have their behaviour regulated, others live according to their own law, or outside the law. What they do show who they are, and God will judge them accordingly. But we shouldn't confuse our justice with God's justice. The existence of evil doesn't mean it is tolerated, only that its final judgment is delayed.
*************
M*W: Talk about a waffler! God kills us and makes us suffer, but he loves us, yeah right. What a friggin' idiot you are. Have you ever heard Shakespeare's quote, "s/he doth protest too much." That's what you do. You have appointed yourself in the defense of your god. He's YOUR god -- not ours, and we know he doesn't exist!
*************
Jenyar: The irony is that God is called "cruel" both for judging evil and for allowing it. People want it both ways. Just enough tolerance for a little evil, enough to allow some freedom of choice -- a quick lie, a spout of unfaithfulness, a little selfishness -- but not enough for something to go horribly wrong, not enough for the consequences to ever become fully realized. With this mentality, people remain pampered little children who know they could not bear the weight of responsibility once their sins have outgrown them.
*************
M*W: Jenyar, get psychiatric help! You've created this fantasy god in your head, and that's the only place it is! You're imagining what other people do and how/why they sin. Bottom line, I think you have a god-complex! Kinda like the one Norman Bates had with his Mother. This is how I see you and your god. You're a mighty arrogant SOB. If you look like you have a split personality, and you walk like you have a split personality, and you talk like you have a split personality, by dammit, you have a split personality! Get help!!!
*************
Jenyar: And the consequences for sin is death, and death without God is hell. Hell has become the symbol of everything God cannot tolerate, everything He despises, everything that is not Him and away from Him. The Jews and Christians, like Jesus himself, borrowed from sources around them to describe this state.
*************
M*W: You really believe you are god! From where do you get your knowledge of god? Did he come to you in a dream? Did you see angels hovering over you? You really are deep into your fantasies.
*************
Jenyar: Although atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are not automatically more evil than those committed under any other name, they are evidence of the same degeneracy, and the people involved are no doubt subject to the same judgment. The criterium will not be whether one professed to know God, but whether God in fact knows you.
*************
M*W: So, you're saying that god knows you. Um huh. So please tell us how god knows you and you alone. How easy is that? God knows you. Tell us what god thinks about you, Jenyar, and what he would like to see you do with your life. And, while you're at it, cite some evidence, please.
*************
Jenyar: What we should learn from such examples is not to confuse man's application of justice (or lack of it) with God's judgment. That we can judge such crimes with some objectivity is a clue that we rely on a higher justice, but it should also be a clue that we should not rely too much on our own objectivity. It's that "superiority" that would deny that we will be judged by the same measure we use. God has the final word.
*************
M*W: So how will god judge the almighty prophet Jenyar? Seems like Jenyar is the only member of this forum who thinks he knows god personally. Then, that means the rest of us are doomed. After all, this is YOUR god.
*************
Jenyar: This "message of love" is based on a shallow understanding of the Bible, and more specifically a misunderstanding of Christ himself. The hippies also advocated "love and peace", yet their 'message' was far removed from Christianity.
*************
M*W: You have no idea what the hippies advocated. You weren't born then. I was there, I wore the beads and headbands. I burned my bra. I went to Woodstock. You are so deeply intrapped in the inner dark recesses of your sick mind, there really is no hope for someone like you. If there was a god, he'd definitely freak out when he saw you!
*************
Jenyar: Jesus did not preach love first, He preached judgment and repentence. He was the answer to the problem posed by the law: are you perfect? He was God's answer to the problem of suffering and injustice. When we suffer, we do not want scientific reasons and philosophical explanations, we want love, care, and healing. The healthy do not need a doctor. If you are perfect, you do not expect punishment or fear justice, but no perfection makes you immune to being a victim of sin or death. It's no coincidence that we feel life at its most glorious and meaningful when experience love, not when our conscience is clearest.
*************
M*W: You don't know what Jesus preached! All you know is what Paul wrote. If you want to know what Jesus actually said, read the Gnostic Gospels. Your last sentence says an awful lot about the split in your psyche. It's obvious that you are a lost soul.
*************
Jenyar: While we focus on the ideal, on "heaven", the contrast of suffering, pain and injustice become shockingly evident and offensive. But without such a backdrop we would not notice it. Even the word "conscience" means "with knowledge". In fact, we are so confident in our ability to discern between right and wrong, that we would even hold God to it if we could. But if we put man up as the ideal, the individual becomes supreme and the law loses, and if we put the law up as the ideal, control and authority becomes supreme and man loses; there is no man just or powerful enough to trust with enforcing the world.
*************
M*W: You have a lot of mixed messages in this post. You have made an effort to show the polar extremes which is obvious that your consciousness is constantly being torn between your options. You are psychologically being pulled apart by your own guilt and fear of no redemption. That's why you defend it so. You defend your fantasy. That's where you live.
*************
Jenyar: People question God's wisdom for choosing to suffer with us and for us, rather than simply take us out of the world or "fixing" it (us). But instead of admitting defeat -- as if God cannot deal with suffering or imperfection and therefore neither can we -- God came to be with us. In the first place, He became sin for us, satisfying the requirement of perfect law, and He gave us the comfort and hope of knowing that our suffering is not in vain. Now He is not only waiting at the other end of life -- the perfect, righteous and enlightened end -- He also came under us, below us, to the death-end, to patiently support and catch us when we fall. So God is the beginning and the end, encompassing all. Everything from the worst sinner to the angels themselves. This is His love: that He enabled, not disabled us; gave meaning, not sidestepped it; He did not take away the victory from us, and through Christ we never have an excuse to admit defeat...
*************
M*W: This is your fantasy -- not ours. It is really offensive when you preach in between the lines of your posts. All you're doing is trying to convince yourself that there really is a god. You protest too much, so you're obviously in conflict with your own mind. Get help!
*************
Jenyar: This frees us from whatever we fear, and permits us to love. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." If we have to be freed at such a terrible cost, then it must mean that what we must be freed from is otherwise very real and threatening.
*************
M*W: Jenyar, you need help. You are propagating your fantasies of a god onto the rest of us. Your god is not who we want to hear about. You've created an entire personality of your god and are trying to sell it online. You've failed miserably. If you want to do some good, prove that a god exists. If a god existed, it wouldn't be yours alone, and we would all understand it. But to create a god in your mind, and then try to rampantly sell your creation is delusional. Seriously delusional. Good typing and sophisticated vocabulary cannot a true god make, and its a waste of the forum's time.
 
Jenyar,

Where you been, my man? Don't let the trolls bother you, they're on bad dope or something. Sprinkle a little holy water on them and watch the demons come out! Have you ever heard such hateful chatter! :eek:

I think you covered the original question well, though I might ad this, and I discussed it with my wife:

People have a choice to do what is good or evil, God could take away that choice and we would no longer see evil, but on the otherhand there would be no freedom.

"Why would a loving God send people to hell?" has been asked for ages. First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels. God has done everything he can do to keep people out of hell, but they want it their way. He can put up all the road blocks, caution signs, and warnings you could think of but the people just ignore it -- it's just fake they say, sure, sure there is a hell, right Jesus freak, we all just rot in the ground when we die! Wouldn't it be nice if it was so easy and OJ Simpson leaves this world a free man, Adolph Hitler checks out after killing six million jews, yeah live it up while the living's good, there is no price to pay!

If they don't want God in life they are without him in death, Hell is the absense of God, and that is where they go -- a place of perpetual decay, whereas heaven is a place of perpetual life.

As odd as it may seem, God loves everyone in hell including satan, but there is no hope for them, and he is quite perturbed about their choice. This love is only due to pure benevolence on His part.

PS: I think hell is somewhere near London, England. That's where I hear all the screams coming from.
 
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First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels.

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.

Hell is the absense of God

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent

a place of perpetual decay

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.
 
Woody: Jenyar,

Where you been, my man? Don't let the trolls bother you, they're on bad dope or something. Sprinkle a little holy water on them and watch the demons come out! Have you ever heard such hateful chatter! :eek:
*************
M*W: So Jenyar is YOUR man? Now we know. You delusionists stick together so you don't have to face reality. Bottom line, there is no salvation through xianity! It's all a big lie. I've had a lot of holy water sprinkled on me, and the demons cowered down -- but so did the priests, but that's another issue. When I was in St. Peter's in Rome, the demons cowered down to me there, and that was my devoted religion!!! You do the math. The truth always comes out. Woody, you are not saved. You are a little stump of a man who hides behind your xian delusion -- just like Jenyar. Too bad you have a wife. You and Jenyar would make a fine couple worshipping your male god. Man, you two are too freaky! Is that why your username is "Woody?" Are you trying to advertise it?
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Woody: I think you covered the original question well, though I might ad this, and I discussed it with my wife:

People have a choice to do what is good or evil, God could take away that choice and we would no longer see evil, but on the otherhand there would be no freedom.

"Why would a loving God send people to hell?" has been asked for ages. First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels. God has done everything he can do to keep people out of hell, but they want it their way. He can put up all the road blocks, caution signs, and warnings you could think of but the people just ignore it -- it's just fake they say, sure, sure there is a hell, right Jesus freak, we all just rot in the ground when we die! Wouldn't it be nice if it was so easy and OJ Simpson leaves this world a free man, Adolph Hitler checks out after killing six million jews, yeah live it up while the living's good, there is no price to pay!
*************
M*W: Woody, you can't even prove there is a hell -- nor can you prove there's a heaven -- and you most definitely cannot prove there is a god! Your preaching falls on deaf ears. You are delusional, just like Jenyar.
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Woody: If they don't want God in life they are without him in death, Hell is the absense of God, and that is where they go -- a place of perpetual decay, whereas heaven is a place of perpetual life.
*************
M*W: And while you're at it, prove there is a place of perpetual life. How would you know who experiences the absense of god? You're a phony just like Jenyar. You two have the same delusion, just like 25% of the world's population have -- you're in the MINORITY! But you can't prove shit from shinola. I dare you to try -- try to prove there is a god, a heaven and a hell, and salvation. Have you read the history of xianity. I think not. If you can read, you would know that Jesus didn't die a savior.
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Woody: As odd as it may seem, God loves everyone in hell including satan, but there is no hope for them, and he is quite perturbed about their choice. This love is only due to pure benevolence on His part.
*************
M*W: God doesn't love anybody, because there is no god that exists! You and Jenyar make up this humanized dying demigod savior who never existed. There is no god. There is no heaven. There is no hell. There is no salvation. You two dumb shits are lost and delusional!
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Woody: PS: I think hell is somewhere near London, England. That's where I hear all the screams coming from.
*************
M*W: Hell is in South Afrika. That's where Jenyar is. Where are you my wooden fiend?
 
Aborted_Fetus said:
Ask her if her suffering has made her stronger.

I'm sure it has made her stronger.

Bull. She is now mentally unstable, still extremely depressed, and is living a dull life living off the family's support. She looks like she has aged 20 years in the past couple years. Not all hardship makes you stronger. I have seen it first hand.
 
PS: I think hell is somewhere near London, England. That's where I hear all the screams coming from.

Thought I was on ignore? Ah well it's not an issue.

But tell me.. What problem did you see with my post exactly? Is it not what god said?

It seems you just prefer to turn this into some personal attack rather than debate the issues or refute them with any substance. That shows weakness of character.
 
SnakeLord said:
And remember people, if you are bad not only will you be punished - but your children, and your childrens children, and your childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens children, and your childrens childrens childrens childrens children. They will be punished for your sins.

So sayeth god.
Jeremiah 31:29-30
"In those days people will no longer say,
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'
Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes-his own teeth will be set on edge.

Ezekiel 18:1-4; 29
The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"​
In all cases, your objection comes from God's declaration of his love and justice -- the two things I talked about. God shows love to the thousandth (equivalent to the proverbial "n-th") generation, but he is also just, punishing sin -- but not indefinitely, not without hope. Nowhere does it say anyone will go to hell from that punishment, as if that punishment means death or eternal rejection. After all, what use is punishment if it cannot lead to repentance, and what is forgiveness if the punishment has to end in hell? Hell is when there is no repentance left, it comes after someone has rejected God's forgiveness by not admitting your sin, and is in that sense the final punishment. But the warning is always coupled with certainty of forgiveness, which is why we read in Numbers 14:
Numbers 14:17-19
"Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.'In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."​
The issue in that second part must be the sins of the father (who bear the guilt), not of the children, although they inherit the punishment if they persist in their father's sins. The children suffer because they were the parents' responsibility, and their parents' ways become their own. Sin has consequences. But God's forgiveness means children cannot blame their parents for their own sins anymore, because there is always love: they are responsible for their own lives and their own children. Inheritance, consequences, do not have the final say.

The question everyone must ask is, "in which of those two categories do I fall?": If you are suffering for your parents' sins, do not continue in them; if you expect punishment for your own sins, repent from them. Here are all the verses in question. Please show me where it suggests that punishment is final.
Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.​
 
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First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels.

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.

Hell is the absense of God

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent

a place of perpetual decay

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.
 
Southstar said it twice,

“ First of all Hell was not created for people, but for the devil and his angels. ”

That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.

OH come now, I see I pressed your hot button. Earth was created for man, hence we are here.


“ Hell is the absense of God ”

Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent

Do you really believe he is omnipresent or is this a come-on statement? I believe God is omnipresent, and he knows what goes on in hell, and he is even present there, but nobody there will ever know it. The psalmist, David, made a statement to that effect. Hell is the total absense of a relationship with God. Nonbelievers are granted their one wish for all eternity -- no God.

“ a place of perpetual decay ”


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.

No contradiciton here at all. Hell is not a gift, it is a place that somebody works for -- some harder than others.

God also sends plagues in the end times. One of these plagues is wormwood a "star" about 5 miles in diameter (the size of an asteroid that is prophesized to collide with the earth). As a result of the collision about 1/3 of all life on earth will die, and a drastic climatic change will be effected. This is starting to sound like the evolutionary explaination for the death of dinosaurs -- another subject for another day.

The reason I say "wormwood" is probably an asteroid about 5 miles in diameter: there is an asteroid belt in our solar system that poses this eventual threat, there is a group of people in the observatories that constantly monitor this potential threat. A collision with an asteroid this size could conceivably cause the drastic changes mentioned in the bible. In reality it could be a collision with some other heavenly body like a comet, or some other piece of space debris. It's just a matter of time before the earth catchs a big meteor.
 
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SouthStar said:
That's some very selective reading you're doing buddy.
Then please provide information that says otherwise. We have
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.​
Do you have evidence that outweighs this?

SouthStar said:
Foolish me for thinking He was omnipresent
God is not limited to omnipresence. He can keep his presence from some places, and manifest his presence in others. He may visit all places, and see everywhere, but that does not mean He lives there, or as Woody says, that a relationship with Him is possible everywhere.
SouthStar said:
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights..

Contradiction, no?

Hell is where the believers are. All of us.
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.​
 
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