Christian miracles

[Michael]

No, but I do find it interesting. To put my feelings into a context you may understand, it'd be like you listening to a Scientologist crap on about how Scientology is Miraculous and as evidence just look - even Muslims living in oppressed regimes as (insert random Islamic country) have converted - a testament to the miraculous Prophet Ron Hubbards (pbuh) words.

Isn't that interesting?

Or how about the Muslims that now follow the teaching of Baha'i? Baha'i teach that the Qur'an is corrupted and as evidence point to (insert random corrupt Islamic dictatorship). For the Baha'i, there's a new "Last" Prophet in town.


Isn't this cycle of birth and rebirth of the same old mythological memes interesting?


Of course for me it's academic. I don't honestly care if people believe in Xemu or Xenu or Allah or Smurf-berries. Unless they start killing one another over if it's XeMU or XeNU or Mohammad was the "LAST" Prophet or the second to last or smurf-berries are red or blue. As of now only Muslims are killing one another over these silly memes.


Anyway, going back to my post, you must think Marx a Prophet, his words actually changed the world and the way people see themselves in it. But, you don't do you. Just as you don't think Ron's words are all that worth listening to either. And just like the Baha'i think the Qur'an is corrupted and just like the Scientologist see Ron as the Last Prophet. You're all like a bunch of peas in a pod IMO.

That's what's really interesting

 

[wynn]

my point is that such things are not actionable - IOW they are not sufficient to grant the capacity to surmount one's conditioned nature

From the Christian perspective, this is irrelevant.
It is irrelevant either
1. "because we are saved by faith, not by works",
2. "because desiring salvation is wrong, for it is selfish, we should love God, genuinely and freely",
3. "it is not necessary to (fully) understand God's message in order for it to be effective in our lives / to apply it effectively".

I think that from your perspective, all three above arguments actually have their place as well.
I am not sure where exactly, though.

There is, for example, a section in TLC 28 that says that in this age, people are best left as they are, for they cannot make progress by way of gaining spiritual knowledge, mixed devotional service or renunciation; they should just listen to scriptures from proper sources - "In this way a person may continue to live in whatever condition he is in and still make progress in spiritual advancement."

Although I suppose the difference is that while the Christians say such a passive approach is enough and as good as it gets, in your view, there is more to theism.

 

[wynn]

That all sounds quite cruel. As far as I can tell many of the revered mystics and saints had dark nights of the soul - after years and years of already being quite the holy figures - and even Jesus felt abandoned by his Father on the cross. While this latter is no doubt, per se, in the existence of God, it is doubt in either God's goodness or his own, I would say. If Jesus can have doubts they should remove the beam of Thomas from their own eyes before being so holey with you.

How odd that they do not feel a non-condescending sympathy.

I hate to come across as a victim! I refuse to be a victim! I refuse to be a victim! I refuse to be a victim!

Still, the Christian approach is rather victimizing. It seems to me that they will abuse whatever admission of my own imperfection that I may make, and use that admission against me, in every way they can. This can show in practical, everyday affairs, such as forgoing common decency when around the one who admitted imperfection.

Standard Western psychological approaches for overcoming victim mentality may seem allright per se, but they fail completely when it comes to dealing with religious victimization.
Because in religious dealings, when one feels victimized, one has to allow for the possibility that one may indeed be wrong and the others be right - and that this way, God indeed is on their side, not on one's own.

The only way I can see to turn this around is to somehow bloat one's self-confidence to the point where one feels allright to declare "I have proper knowledge of God and the others do not. I will go to heaven and they will burn in hell for all eternity."
And who in their right mind would declare such things lightly ...

 

[lightgigantic]

From the Christian perspective, this is irrelevant.
It is irrelevant either
1. "because we are saved by faith, not by works",

establishing faith as separate from action is problematic at best and hypocritical at worst

2. "because desiring salvation is wrong, for it is selfish, we should love God, genuinely and freely",

there's no possibility of loving god for as long as one's conditioned nature is at the fore (IOW its the very nature of being conditioned that one isn't genuine and free)

3. "it is not necessary to (fully) understand God's message in order for it to be effective in our lives / to apply it effectively".

If one doesn't at least have a proper understanding of the general direction of progress they are effectively lost

I think that from your perspective, all three above arguments actually have their place as well.
I am not sure where exactly, though.

There is, for example, a section in TLC 28 that says that in this age, people are best left as they are, for they cannot make progress by way of gaining spiritual knowledge, mixed devotional service or renunciation; they should just listen to scriptures from proper sources - "In this way a person may continue to live in whatever condition he is in and still make progress in spiritual advancement."

Although I suppose the difference is that while the Christians say such a passive approach is enough and as good as it gets, in your view, there is more to theism.

The idea is that one doesn't have to extraneously turn one's life upside down in order to begin or establish themselves in spiritual life. For instance there are some disciplines that advocate that one must fully take to the path of renunciation before one begins talking of spiritual advancement

 

[Shadow1]

Let me show you some of Mohammad's miracles:

Oh wait... there were none.

and... there are other miracles, so? what's your point? the miracles of mohamed is the quran, and forget it, no use to talk about.

 

[Shadow1]

.

Interestingly, this makes good sense, given Mohammad was atheist. Which seems reasonable. Of course Mohammad knew there'd be no more miracles, there never were any to begin with.


That aside, what I find interesting is how Christians can see that the Muslim miracles are not really miracles and the Muslims can see that the Baha'i miracles are not really miracles and the Baha'i can see the the Mormon miracles are not really miracles and the Mormon can see that the Scientology miracles are not really miracles and the Scientologist can see that the John Frum miracles are not really miracles and everyone should be able to see that John Edwards is a douche bag and yet he has millions and millions and millions of followers all around the planet.

ok ,i understood your point, if mohamed, don't beleive in god, then, why would he make people beleove in god, if mohamed wrote quran, then, why he didnt say he's the god, like in christinaity, you say christ is the god, anyway, since i'm a muslim, i belive in what i beleive, and i lbeleive that there's a god, and mohamed is his messenger, simple, end of story, anyway, this topic is about christanity, not islam

 

[Shadow1]

.

Your theories about the Quran and the Prophet, are just that - theories.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed miracles, the spread of Islam at times has been miraculous. To an athiest or someone vehemently opposed to Islam or any religion, the spread of Islam would just be the result of many factors coincidently favouring the spread of the religion. Its all about perspective and no amount of arguing is going to change anything.

good one!

 

[Shadow1]

.

The spreading of Islam within a hundred years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - was miraculous IMO. The spreading of Islam depended greatly on Muhammad (pbuh) being accepted as a Prophet and the Quran being accepted as divine revelation, to me they are miracles. There are so many stories and accounts, hundreds, interweaving from before the time of the Prophet, till during his time, and even centuries afterwards. Muhammad (pbuh) was close to being killed on many occasions, the Muslims could have been wiped out - and Islam finished as a religion - many times. But what is destined to happen will happen.

And it has all come from a long line of Prophets - through Abraham, through the Prophets sent to the Children of Israel as well as other Prophets and Messengers. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last Prophet, the one just before the End Times and he has given specific information regarding the signs of the final hour - and many have passed. He is also gave specific information regarding the battle or Armageddon, the return of Jesus, the Anti-Christ etc. So its not like the story of Islam is over, there are still many chapters left.

Does it upset you that Muslims find great solace in the words of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Or do you just feel really sorry for us?

they just cant accept it, that's why i'm making soem tests, and i'll giveyou all theresulst later, in an anotehr post, anyway, pleas try to stay away fo talking about islam, cause this oen about christnaity, what you said is good, but, not it's place, there is a topic of islam miracles.

 

[Shadow1]

.

No, but I do find it interesting. To put my feelings into a context you may understand, it'd be like you listening to a Scientologist crap on about how Scientology is Miraculous and as evidence just look - even Muslims living in oppressed regimes as (insert random Islamic country) have converted - a testament to the miraculous Prophet Ron Hubbards (pbuh) words.

Isn't that interesting?

Or how about the Muslims that now follow the teaching of Baha'i? Baha'i teach that the Qur'an is corrupted and as evidence point to (insert random corrupt Islamic dictatorship). For the Baha'i, there's a new "Last" Prophet in town.


Isn't this cycle of birth and rebirth of the same old mythological memes interesting


Of course for me it's academic. I don't honestly care if people believe in Xemu or Xenu or Allah or Smurf-berries. Unless they start killing one another over if it's XeMU or XeNU or Mohammad was the "LAST" Prophet or the second to last or smurf-berries are red or blue. As of now only Muslims are killing one another over these silly memes.


Anyway, going back to my post, you must think Marx a Prophet, his words actually changed the world and the way people see themselves in it. But, you don't do you. Just as you don't think Ron's words are all that worth listening to either. And just like the Baha'i think the Qur'an is corrupted and just like the Scientologist see Ron as the Last Prophet. You're all like a bunch of peas in a pod IMO.

That's what's really interesting

you just don't understand nothing, and you're off-topic,
anyway, you are starting to talk agressivly, and you start to start a proganada, also you're attacking beleifs and relegions, why cant you accept other beleifs, or otehr relegions? did you see me mocking of christnaity, did you see me mocking of judaism? or budhaism? hello! wake up! anyway, stop starting proganada, stay on topic, there's another topic of islam miracles, you can talk about islam there,
it's not just reply, most of replyes, just stop this proganada,

 

[Medicine*Woman]

and... there are other miracles, so? what's your point? the miracles of mohamed is the quran, and forget it, no use to talk about.

*************
M*W: I would like to know what Mohammad's miracles were. Could you list them briefly?

 

[iceaura]

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed miracles, the spread of Islam at times has been miraculous. To an athiest or someone vehemently opposed to Islam or any religion, the spread of Islam would just be the result of many factors coincidently favouring the spread of the religion. Its all about perspective and no amount of arguing is going to change anything.

The fact that you guys so consistently get the atheist perspective wrong might argue for a role for argument.

I can't help thinking that there's possibility for change by way of argument, when people's views are in conflict with a steady stream of circumstance.

I haven't met any atheist at all, even one, who thinks Islam spreads "just {as} the result of many factors coincidently favoring} " its spread.

 

[Shadow1]

.

*************
M*W: I would like to know what Mohammad's miracles were. Could you list them briefly?

split the moon, uuh, i think not, it was an event,


anyway;, Mohamed(pbuh) gave us some events, like stears to the last day, some events that will happen, and actually the minor ones already happened,
also he left many wise sayings, and advices, like to never tell back bad words if anotehr one told you bad words, or bad actions, also to ignore the uneducated, the "that don't know nothing" anyway, you get the word, or with a simple word, idiot jurks, and like if some oen told you bad things, just say "salam" means, peace, or, hey, or hell ..." etc... very wise sayings,

now the list :
-
-
-
...
that's the list, none, the only miracle is islam and quran itslef(i don't mean he wrote it, that's also what the people in mecca claimed that time, when they tortured muslims, islam had the risk to disippear from the existence about 5 times) islam,

but there are other miracles of others mentioned in the quran, like noah, meriem and others like in your bible, well, not exactly like in bible, ...

 

[Michael]

ok ,i understood your point, if mohamed, don't beleive in god, then, why would he make people beleove in god, if mohamed wrote quran, then, why he didnt say he's the god, like in christinaity, you say christ is the god, anyway, since i'm a muslim, i belive in what i beleive, and i lbeleive that there's a god, and mohamed is his messenger, simple, end of story, anyway, this topic is about christanity, not islam

As a Muslim you should know better. Mohammad didn't write the Qur'an. Some other dudes did WAY WAAAAY WAAAAAAAAAAAY after Mohammad (if he even existed) was long dead and gone.

Maybe Mohammad thought people would stop being so silly and superstitious after he died and so he said: I'm the Last and after me no more miracles. Seems like a very reasonable thing to say..... for an Atheist.


Let's put it another way. What are your thoughts on the later portion of the post?

That aside, what I find interesting is how Christians can see that the Muslim miracles are not really miracles and the Muslims can see that the Baha'i miracles are not really miracles and the Baha'i can see the the Mormon miracles are not really miracles and the Mormon can see that the Scientology miracles are not really miracles and the Scientologist can see that the John Frum miracles are not really miracles and everyone should be able to see that John Edwards is a douche bag and yet he has millions and millions and millions of followers all around the planet.

millions and millions and millions of people all over the planet, some even Muslim, think that John Edwards is a psychic and speaks with the dead and think this is a TRUE MIRACLE OF GOD.

Yeah, I know, pathetic, but peas in a pod, peas in a pod

If John Edwards were to say: I'm the Last Psychic and after me no will ever "truly" speak to the dead - would he maybe know this is true because he knows he's not really speaking to dead people? :shrug:

And, one can ask the same of Edwards, WHY DOES HE PRETEND TO SPEAK TO THE DEAD?


Edwards is the 2010 version of a Prophet/Celebrity. If you can't see that, well, I don't know what to say? Oh, yeah I do, peas in a pod.....

PS: Please tell me you don't think Edwards speaks to dead people!

 

[Shadow1]

.

As a Muslim you should know better. Mohammad didn't write the Qur'an. Some other dudes did WAY WAAAAY WAAAAAAAAAAAY after Mohammad (if he even existed) was long dead and gone.

Maybe Mohammad thought people would stop being so silly and superstitious after he died and so he said: I'm the Last and after me no more miracles. Seems like a very reasonable thing to say..... for an Atheist.


Let's put it another way. What are your thoughts on the later portion of the post?
millions and millions and millions of people all over the planet, some even Muslim, think that John Edwards is a psychic and speaks with the dead and think this is a TRUE MIRACLE OF GOD.

Yeah, I know, pathetic, but peas in a pod, peas in a pod


If John Edwards were to say: I'm the Last Psychic and after me no will ever "truly" speak to the dead - would he maybe know this is true because he knows he's not really speaking to dead people? :shrug:

And, one can ask the same of Edwards, WHY DOES HE PRETEND TO SPEAK TO THE DEAD?


Edwards is the 2010 version of a Prophet/Celebrity. If you can't see that, well, I don't know what to say? Oh, yeah I do, peas in a pod.....

PS: Please tell me you don't think Edwards speaks to dead people!

ok, what's your problem, you're an atheist, you'll never understand, second, who are you to tell me, about my relegion, or my beleifs, pleas! get a life,
if you doenst belleive doesnt mean you're right, so, whatever, and what are you even saying, you're just saying stuff with no sense, as i said, you have no respect to any other beleifs or peason, you're just pephetic, just elarn how to respect others, in relegion, culture, and whateer they beelve, even if you thoght they were wrong, even if you thoght, that they are all wrong, and only you is wright, so, it's uselss to talk to some one like you, gosh! pff

if people wrote quran, then; how did they knew things, that we didnt discover it, only at this centery and lately in the 2th century? why many scientists converted to islam, i said scientists, who know science, not just some people, or some people that you can convince them with myths???
and Mohamed, is a part of history, mentioned in history, historicans know and admit that he existed, also if no Mohamed, it would be there no islam, no arabic empire, and we would be living toaday, like 1000 years before, primitive, cause you don't know what the arabic empire did and without it's science and inventions, we would never have this world, also, who are you to judge by guessing that mohamed don't exist, also, who are you to say that quran is man-made, if scientists said it cant be, cuase no fault is in it, and historicans, who stydied history for their hall life, say that mohamed existed, and you say he didnt, i wonder who's right, (defferently not you) you're just a brainwashed dude! get a life! your sicologicly ill, you know that, you're just pephetic, you're not a scientist so you can judge by guessing, even scientists don't, make reaserches, just, damn, don't reply on this, you're just sick, never saw some one soo pephetic like you. i don't want to say more than that, i don't want to offend you with bad words and other stuff, so, just stay away, ok?

just answer on this,


stay away, ok?
(your onyl answer is yes)

 

[Shadow1]

PS: Please tell me you don't think Edwards speaks to dead people!

speak to the dead people?
gosh, now i'm concerned about your mental health, you're just sick dude!

 

[Michael]

ok, what's your problem, you're an atheist, you'll never understand, second, who are you to tell me, about my relegion, or my beleifs, pleas! get a life,

you do see the hypocrisy in this sentence don't you? (in blue )


Also, I'm atheist, not an Atheist. Actually, you and I are both atheists for many many Gods and Goddesses. Do you believe in the existence of the Great Japanese Goddess Amaterasu? No? me neither. So we are both atheists for the Japanese Goddess Amaterasu. Do you believe in the existence of Xemu (Xenu)? No? me neither. So we are both atheists for Xemu (Xenu). How about Zeus? No? Me neither. So we are both atheists for Zeus. What about Smurf berries? No? OK, again we agree.


So, I do understand you. We agree that there is no evidence for any of these things and so we don't believe in them. For millions and millions and millions of Gods and Goddesses we both agree.


And this will be the same for me and many people who think John Edwards is channeling spirits of the dead. We'll both agree that none of these other Gods are real. And yes, for some reason, they do believe Edwards is performing a Christian Miracle. Whereas I don't. Actually, millions of people believe this. Isn't that interesting? Millions and Millions of people can think something is true - when it's not.

Something to think about.

 

[lightgigantic]

you do see the hypocrisy in this sentence don't you? (in blue )


Also, I'm atheist, not an Atheist. Actually, you and I are both atheists for many many Gods and Goddesses. Do you believe in the existence of the Great Japanese Goddess Amaterasu? No? me neither. So we are both atheists for the Japanese Goddess Amaterasu. Do you believe in the existence of Xemu (Xenu)? No? me neither. So we are both atheists for Xemu (Xenu). How about Zeus? No? Me neither. So we are both atheists for Zeus. What about Smurf berries? No? OK, again we agree.


So, I do understand you. We agree that there is no evidence for any of these things and so we don't believe in them. For millions and millions and millions of Gods and Goddesses we both agree.


And this will be the same for me and many people who think John Edwards is channeling spirits of the dead. We'll both agree that none of these other Gods are real. And yes, for some reason, they do believe Edwards is performing a Christian Miracle. Whereas I don't. Actually, millions of people believe this. Isn't that interesting? Millions and Millions of people can think something is true - when it's not.

Something to think about.

By the same logic you can say that a pregnant woman and a virgin have the same experience since both of them have not slept with practically millions of men.

 

[Michael]

if people wrote quran, then; how did they knew things, that we didnt discover it, only at this centery and lately in the 2th century?

Wishful thinking.

why many scientists converted to islam, i said scientists, who know science, not just some people, or some people that you can convince them with myths???

Many more Muslim Scientists are now atheists. They have converted away from Islam. I know, because I've worked with 4 ex-Muslim scientists.

As to why there are some Muslim scientists? For THE EXACT REASONS there are some Scientologist scientists. There are many scientists who believe all sorts of things. So what?

and Mohamed, is a part of history, mentioned in history, historicans know and admit that he existed, also if no Mohamed, it would be there no islam, no arabic empire, and we would be living toaday, like 1000 years before,

No that's simply not true. There is no contemporary evidence specifically of Mohammad. That's not to say he didn't live. Just that there's no evidence. The Qur'an was NOT written by Mohammad. It was written by some other people a long time after Mohammad was dead and gone.

primitive, cause you don't know what the arabic empire did and without it's science and inventions, we would never have this world, also, who are you to judge by guessing that mohamed don't exist, also, who are you to say that quran is man-made,

That's simply not true. Think of 10 modern inventions made by Muslims that changed the world. By modern I mean in the last 150 years. How's that for a window?

I think you'll find most of the modern world was built by Europeans and Americans and now Japanese.

if scientists said it cant be, cuase no fault is in it, and historicans, who stydied history for their hall life, say that mohamed existed, and you say he didnt, i wonder who's right,

I hear that Scientologsist say this all the time - only it's about Ron Hubbard (PBUH). That fact is, it's not true. Scifes had a whole formal debate with Spidergoat and came up with NOTHING in the Qur'an that is miraculous. In the end 786 was chasing waves in waves to mean atomic orbital theory or something similar. It really ended quite farcical. Not that it matters. Just like a brainwashed Scientologist everyone superstitious walked away believing in Xemu/Xenu or Allah or whatever.

(defferently not you) you're just a brainwashed dude! get a life! your sicologicly ill, you know that, you're just pephetic, you're not a scientist so you can judge by guessing, even scientists don't, make reaserches, just, damn, don't reply on this, you're just sick, never saw some one soo pephetic like you. i don't want to say more than that, i don't want to offend you with bad words and other stuff, so, just stay away, ok?

You can open a function in your profil that has an Ignore list. As soon as you add my name to it you can no longer read any of my posts. Just add my name to that list. Otherwise, don't read my posts. It's really that simple.






By the way: You don't believe in modern Christian Miracles do you? Yet here you are posting in a thread about Christian Miracles. Have you ever thought about how that could offend someone who does? You Scifes and 786 are quick to get pissed off when YOUR superstition is on the hot plate, but perfectly happy to ridicule other people's superstitions. You do know a LOT of people truly believe in John Edwards to channel their dead fathers or daughters, wives or friends and yet you write this:

speak to the dead people?
gosh, now i'm concerned about your mental health, you're just sick dude!

I know you don't get it, but, you're acting like a hypocrite.

 

[Michael]

By the same logic you can say that a pregnant woman and a virgin have the same experience since both of them have not slept with practically millions of men.

Yes, that is true. The pregnant woman and the virgin would probably have some common ground concerning sex over say a person who sleeps with 10 people a day at $50 a pop? :shrug:

I'm not saying that they see the world of sex the exact same, no two people do, but, that they may share at least some similar views - over that of a prostitute.

 

[lightgigantic]

Yes, that is true. The pregnant woman and the virgin would probably have some common ground concerning sex over say a person who sleeps with 10 people a day at $50 a pop? :shrug:

actually if the prostitute has never been pregnant you are still working with the same logical fallacy

I'm not saying that they see the world of sex the exact same, no two people do, but, that they may share at least some similar views - over that of a prostitute.

We're not talking views.
We're talking experience (as it gives rise to consequences)