China's Emergence As A Global Superpower

Unfortunately, China will overtake us one day because our leadership is and has been selling our assets to them. They damage our spyplane. Disassemble it, and charge us 250 million dollars to get it back in pieces. And our leadership says thank you very much! Wake up America, they already own us.
 
Unfortunately, China will overtake us one day because our leadership is and has been selling our assets to them. They damage our spyplane. Disassemble it, and charge us 250 million dollars to get it back in pieces. And our leadership says thank you very much! Wake up America, they already own us.

nah, it's just like taking a breather. Sometimes, it's good to let another drive for awhile and take the wheel. Always hogging the limelight is unrealistic too.
 
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To quadraphonics (et.al.)€:
In post 560 I said:
"China has a lot more water than Israel, and the brains to use it well. ..." This was just my conservate guess. (Too lazy to find facts, but accidently I just did.)

China has more water than the USA has! In fact only Brazil, Russia and Canada have more fresh water than China!

"Although China holds the fourth-largest freshwater resources in the world (Number 4, after Brazil, Russia, and Canada)*, skyrocketing demand, overuse, inefficiencies, pollution, and unequal distribution have produced a situation in which two-thirds of China's approximately 660 cities have less water than they need and 110 of them suffer severe shortages. ..."
FROM:
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070...zabeth-c-economy/the-great-leap-backward.html

I plan to enter my statement that "China has more water than Israel" in the "Understatement of the year" contest. :D

BTW That foreign Affairs article is worht reading, if some what pesimistic about China's current enviromental problems impact on China's growth. I am sure that the author was never in Pittsburg PA in the early 1940s, as I was one day when the smog was so bad you could not see acroos the street. 100+ years ago London was so blackend by coal smog that one of the favorate eveolution support facts is that a pre-industral revolution white moth evolved to became black to be less visible when resting on the smog blacken tree trunks. (It has evolved back to white, now btw.)

SUMMARY: Yes China will have a lot of sickness etc as it repeats the same process US and England did,but eventually running on it rich resources of hydropower and nuclear energy it will be less enviromentally polluted than most, like the US which is lacking these resources.
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*Really Number 5. Author is in error. Antartica is No 1.
 
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Read-Only I never said it would end the disease process. However, I did say the drug companies know it is more profitable to treat those with the disease for a life time rather than for a few months and cure them as well as treating those that newly develop the disease. Your assumption that someohter group of bright eyes will see an opportunity and develop the cure. Unfortunatlely those bright eyes frequently lack the ability to market and must partner with the larger drug companies.
 
A day will come and there will be no USA, no China, no world of today, only our seeds dispersed throughout the world waging wars upon each other.
 
China has more water than the USA has! In fact only Brazil, Russia and Canada have more fresh water than China!

Yeah, about 25% more water resources than the United States has, with more than 4 times as many people. Which is to say that they don't have nearly as much water as they need. Likewise, China's economy is almost as big as America's, in PPP terms, but the per-capita GDP is still way behind Mexico.
 
That is news to me, but such an unimportant parenthical point in post 554, that I have removed it. What do you think about the main thrust of post 554? You made no comment on that.

Well, it's not a terribly interesting piece of news that developing countries exhibit higher growth rates than developed ones. The fact remains that China's GDP is still only 1/6 the size of America's. The only interesting thing about that statistic is that it puts the 10+% growth rates that China's been running in perspective: America's economy has actually been growing by MORE total dollars per year than China's has all this time; this shows up as a lower growth rate exactly because America's economy is so much larger to begin with.

Moreover, this statistic applies to a period when the US economy is growing slower than normal, and China's currency has finally been allowed to appreciate to some degree.

I do not understand why in EVERY discussion of the struggle between China and US for world dominance (US far in the lead at present.) that the talk ALWAYS turns to a militray conflict

The subject of military conflict arising in a discussion on a struggle for world dominance? Yeah, why would anyone think that those two subjects are related...

which neither can win as both are nuclear with ICBMs.

No, America enjoys a state of nuclear primacy vis-a-vis China. There's debate as to whether America could destroy all of Russia's retaliation capability in a first strike, but China would be a slam-dunk. Moreover, even if each sides' nuclear forces are sufficient to prevent a direct conflict, that just raises the issue of proxy wars, as we saw in the Cold War. It's certainly not the case that ICBMs have made military power irrelevant to geopolitics.
 
No, America enjoys a state of nuclear primacy vis-a-vis China. There's debate as to whether America could destroy all of Russia's retaliation capability in a first strike, but China would be a slam-dunk. Moreover, even if each sides' nuclear forces are sufficient to prevent a direct conflict, that just raises the issue of proxy wars, as we saw in the Cold War. It's certainly not the case that ICBMs have made military power irrelevant to geopolitics.[/QUOTE]
Nuclear primacy is not relevant...they own us. When was the last time you saw an American politician do anything to interfer with the whims of the Chinese government?
 
No, America enjoys a state of nuclear primacy vis-a-vis China. There's debate as to whether America could destroy all of Russia's retaliation capability in a first strike, but China would be a slam-dunk. Moreover, even if each sides' nuclear forces are sufficient to prevent a direct conflict, that just raises the issue of proxy wars, as we saw in the Cold War. It's certainly not the case that ICBMs have made military power irrelevant to geopolitics.
Nuclear primacy is not relevant...they own us. When was the last time you saw an American politician do anything to interfer with the whims of the Chinese government?
Not sure exactly what you are saying, but will comment anyway:

I am not sure China has the ability to launch nuclear weapon warhead cruse missles from submerged submarines as US has had for more than a decade, but they do have subs at least capable of launching nuclear warhead rockets. Admittedly these subs are terrible noisy and US attack subs probably constantly have them within range.

China is now building a second generation of nuclear subs. - One of the Indian financial newspapers I read at least weekly claimed to have a photo of the first, but did not post that photo on its internet web page with the story.

In any case, it is no doubt true that US could destroy China (send it back to the start of the industral age) but it would not be a free "slam dunk". For example, China will orbit the moon in the next few months and can easily take out the US's top 10 cities in their "first strike."

China has no desire to do this as knows full well that such action would send them back to a pre-industral age. China still needs to sell to the US, although such sales are already dropping. More of China's production is, as I predicted long ago, being consumed domestically and used to pay for the importation of raw material, energy and food stocks every year.

Likewise, China's ability to destroy the US economically (Still now possible only with consideral self-inflicted economic pain.) is rapidly growing every year. China is clearly winning this "economic war," but as Quadraphonics often points out to me, US has about a 6 to 1 lead in GDP etc. still.

If US GDP growth continues slowing, even turnning negative as many now think a real posibility. (Greenspan's most recent estimate of recession is ">1/3chance.") and China's middle class continues to grow in numbers by more than 1 million every month and their indivual purchasing power continues to double every 3 or less years. (Salries rise rapidly there now.) - China is not a cheap labor producer of shirts and shoes etc. now but transforming to high value added products like computers, digital cameras etc. (Look where yours was made - nearly 100% of world's computer production is from China now, and they make more than 1/2 of all the cell phones etc. )

Just yesterday in paper I read that China now has 100 US dollar billionares. Cheung Yan leads the list with 3.4 billion. In 2005 there were only 7 dollar billionares in all of China! (1/3 of the 100 are CP members. The Chinese CP has 72 million members.) No one knows for sure, but at least 1000 Chinese now have net worth of 100 million dollars. More multi-million dollar homes are going up in China than all the rest of the world. I.e., as I have somewhat obnoxiously been saying (to get people to wake up to the changing realities):

Some day in the not too distant future, China will find it to its economic advantage to tell US:

Go to hell - we do not need you to buy our production any more. Your green pieces of paper are "worthless." Our sovern funds (backed by ownership of real assets, instead of US Treasury paper) is where our reserves are now.

I.e. China will be able to trigger a run on the dollar with little domestic pain in about a decade. That will send the US and EU into deep depression, if GWB's gross mismanagement of the economy and war costs have not already done so. (I continue to predict GWB will first: i.e. the run on dollar to be between Halloween of 2008 and 2014 - the 6 year window of my prediction made some years ago.)

When US and EU are in deep depression, their demand for (and ability to pay for) oil and other items China is importing in even greater quantity than today, will cost China less than if the US and EU economies were healthy. - That saving will be much greater that the loss of value of the relative few US Treasurey bonds China is still holding in its reserves. - I.e. destroying the US economically will be a "no brainer" choice for China in about a decade.
 
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but they do have subs at least capable of launching nuclear warhead rockets. Admittedly these subs are terrible noisy and US attack subs probably constantly have them within range.

To be correct, they have ONE submarine capable of launching nuclear warhead missiles. It has never left Chinese coastal waters and is not thought to be capable of extended deployment. Moreover, it has not been out to see in almost a decade, and has not conducted any fire excercises in almost 20 years. On top of which, it's very noise and easy to track and defeat with modern equipment. It could potentially be a threat to Taiwan, Japan or Vietnam, say, but certainly not the United States.

China is now building a second generation of nuclear subs.

Yeah, they've been saying that for years. I'll believe it when I see it. Anyway, even if China does get an operational SSBN, it'll still be decades behind America in that regard. And it's not as if America has been sitting on its hands when it comes to nuclear forces.

In any case, it is no doubt true that US could destroy China (send it back to the start of the industral age) but it would not be a free "slam dunk". For example, China will orbit the moon in the next few months and can easily take out the US's top 10 cities in their "first strike."

No, China's intercontinental forces consist of less than 20 liquid-fueled, single-warhead ICBMs. These take hours to fuel up ahead of launch, giving America ample time to pre-empt any first strike. Supposing they even got any of these missiles off of the ground, they are exactly the type of slow, bulky, non-MIRV systems that the American missile shield is designed to counter. Note that American missile defense is progressing more quickly than Chinese missile technology; they're falling *further behind* the United States in this area.

China is not a cheap labor producer of shirts and shoes etc. now but transforming to high value added products like computers, digital cameras etc. (Look where yours was made - nearly 100% of world's computer production is from China now, and they make more than 1/2 of all the cell phones etc. )

You mean "assembled in China." They don't make any of the high value-added components in those devices (the processors are all still Intel and AMD). Rather, they perform the least value-added part of the assembly chain, which is bolting the things together and packaging them in boxes.

Go to hell - we do not need you to buy our production any more. Your green pieces of paper are "worthless." Our sovern funds (backed by ownership of real assets, instead of US Treasury paper) is where our reserves are now.

I.e. China will be able to trigger a run on the dollar with little domestic pain in about a decade.

...

That saving will be much greater that the loss of value of the relative few US Treasurey bonds China is still holding in its reserves. - I.e. destroying the US economically will be a "no brainer" choice for China in about a decade.

No, no, we've been through all this before. If the dollar bonds that they'd be dumping are insignificant with respect to China's economy, they'll also be too small a portion of the debt market to sink the dollar. Likewise, if they are significant enough to tank the dollar, they'll drag China down with it. It doesn't make any sense to suggest that China can somehow afford to lose X dollars and that America can't, especially when America's economy is 6 times bigger.
 
...No, no, we've been through all this before. If the dollar bonds that they'd be dumping are insignificant with respect to China's economy, they'll also be too small a portion of the debt market to sink the dollar. Likewise, if they are significant enough to tank the dollar, they'll drag China down with it. It doesn't make any sense to suggest that China can somehow afford to lose X dollars and that America can't, especially when America's economy is 6 times bigger.
Yes we have, and again you ignore my clear indication (serveral times in last post) that I am speaking about what I expect to be the condition "a decade hence" by citing the current conditions.

Yes I am assuming that some time between 31 October 2008 and 2014 the US and EU will experience a "run on the dollar" and soon thereafter go into deep depression. (In other words, I expect a greatly a contracted market for US treasury bonds - holder not willing to sell at depressed prices but holding to maturity to get "face value.") We will never resolve our disagreement so long as you do not address this assumption but cite the present condition in reply to what I am suggesting is likely a "decade hence."
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Last time I replied with this same type of responce I said you were looking at the "current conditions" and not the "trends." * You "countered" by correctly noting that US's 6 to 1 GDP lead would not be over taken in a decade by China's 10% growth as that is only 5 or 6 times faster than the US's GDP growth (and of course that is correct mathetical extrapulation); however, As I have noted several times in this thread, I expect China to pass the US GDP in about two decades, not by matematical extrapilation of the current relative growth rates (I am too lazy to work out how many years it requires for a 6 times greater growth to overtake a 6 times greater GDP - more than two decades, I am sure.).

My point is that the China gaining on and eventually passing the US will be mainly due to the US entering first recession and then depression with great stagflation as printing press dollars pay off the maturing Treasury bonds that can not be "rolled" at any reasonable (not even more destructive of the US economy) interest rates.

You do not need to accept that this is what will happen, but if we are to progress in our discussion, you must at least understand what I am saying / assuming rather than always knock down a strawman I did not setup.

Also note I am more optimistic than some economists. For example, in the first post of my thread "Is today the start of the Perfect Storm? (caused by the "6L cycle")" I clearly indicate that I think the central banks will get the world economy thur the current troubles (steming from the "sub-prime" mortgage mess, even though it has spread more than I intitally thought it would with still no clear end in sight).
I also am sticking with my prediction that the DOW will hit 15,000 if not by years end within the first 50 days of 2008. (The also more rapid fall of the dollar than I expected, plus the FED's surprizing cut by 0.5%, made me recently willing to bring that end point closer - 50 days - instead of "by the first quarter of 2008" as I originally stated my prediction more than a year ago.)

Why not respond to what I am saying about the future instead of showing it false/impossible with your assumption that the US growth will not turn negative? Lets argue/ discuss about that.
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*I was not as accurate /explicit with "trends" as I could have been. It is the acceleration trend" in the current contraction of "dollar investment trends" that has me most worried. - For example the recent rise of sovern funds to hold rapidly increasing fraction of government reserves, Dubai dropping the tie to the dollar, Saudi Arabia for the first time in its modern history, not following the FED, almost all of he Mid East sellers of oil now immediately converting large fraction of their dollar incomes into other assets now (instead of buying Treasuy bonds with nearly 100% of that income). etc.

PS the psychological effect of China orbiting the moon will be large, not as large as sputnic was of course, but large. Also China and Russia now have a joint program to put a man on Mars. I do not know the schedule but if that beats the US effort (AND IT WILL, if US economy is in depression) that will be a "sputnic psychological" impact, on all of the "western world."
 
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Dude, you're becoming incoherent. There's no straw man here: you say that China can maneuver into a position wherein it will be able to dump enough dollars to collapse the American economy without hurting itself significantly. I point out that, since China's entire economy is substantially smaller than the US external debt, that doesn't make any sense. The only way it can work out is if China's economy is already substantially larger than America's, which makes it inapplicable as a means for China to overtake the American economy.

More generally, your whole view of trade as a form of warfare is misplaced. Wars are zero-sum games wherein one side wins to the extent that the other loses. Trade does not work that way: generally both sides will prosper together or fail together. Moreover, to the extent that Chinese policy makers were to adopt your crazy ideas and use economic means to wage war on the West, it would be perceived as exactly that: a declaration of war. There's no magic boundary separating economic from security concerns that America is going to respect in the face of open hostility, and so it doesn't make sense to propose hostile 'economic warfare' scenarios that assume America won't retaliate with military means.
 
PS the psychological effect of China orbiting the moon will be large, not as large as sputnic was of course, but large.

No, it won't. People barely even noticed when they put a man into orbit. Even if they put a man on the moon tomorrow, they'd still be an entire generation behind America. Let me know when China accomplishes something that America didn't do decades earlier. It's easy enough to avail yourself of somebody else's advances and massive market in order to play catch-up, but it's quite another thing to produce new advances of your own.

Also China and Russia now have a joint program to put a man on Mars. I do not know the schedule but if that beats the US effort (AND IT WILL, if US economy is in depression) that will be a "sputnic psychological" impact, on all of the "western world."

You should be careful what you wish for. The mean effect of Sputnik on the Western world was that America greatly increased its science and technology education and research budgets and quickly left the USSR in the dust. Unfortunately, it's very doubtful that Americans are going to be particularly troubled by any such developments. Not that it's likely to occur: America has been operating remote-control robots on Mars continuously for years now, with more en route as we speak, whereas this stuff is still on the drawing boards in Russia and China. For that matter, the EU is ahead of them in terms of Mars exploration.
 
Dude, you're becoming incoherent. There's no straw man here: you say that China can maneuver into a position wherein it will be able to dump enough dollars to collapse the American economy without hurting itself significantly. ...
Not quite an accurate summary of what I am saying:

I said China could TRIGGER a run on the dollar, not that it could both protect itself (by transfer of most of reserves into sovern funds etc) and still dump enough Treasury bonds to cause that run all by itself.

Although if they were willing to take a great deal of economic pain the approximately 1 trillion they now have coud do that iwith only a few others jioning the race to get out of dollars. - I have also note, in this thread I think, that theold guard of the CP ruling China is strongly desiring to reunify Tiawan by what ever means necessary before the all die out. They are doing a very good job of doing this peacefully -only a fake assination attempt gave the farmers party the election victory last time in Tiawan. The business community is all for the reunification under the Hong Kong "one country two system" approach. However China is also greatly increasing its military budget for the invasion of Taiwan should this suggesful, peaceful approach fail. For that war approach, it to even be creditable (not a waste of a lot of Yuan) it is necessary to be able for them to stop the US's 7th fleet. They know they can not do that militarily so that is IMHO, why China has build up it dollar holdings - has "loaded its economic gun" is the way I usually compactly express this, other wise irational holding of a trillion dollars in reserves. Not being an oriental, I do not understand the importance of "saving face" to the extent that it is necessary to kill oneself (or ones country) to avoid "losing face" (but it does seem to be their attituded - at least I would think it unwise to assume that the current learership of the chinese CP is not deadly serious in their effort by whatever it takes to re-unite Tiawan to the mainland - I am very thankful their peaceful approach is making such rapid progress in achieveing this.
More generally, your whole view of trade as a form of warfare is misplaced. Wars are zero-sum games wherein one side wins to the extent that the other loses. Trade does not work that way: generally both sides will prosper together or fail together. Moreover, to the extent that Chinese policy makers were to adopt your crazy ideas and use economic means to wage war on the West, it would be perceived as exactly that: a declaration of war. There's no magic boundary separating economic from security concerns that America is going to respect in the face of open hostility, and so it doesn't make sense to propose hostile 'economic warfare' scenarios that assume America won't retaliate with military means.
I agree with all of this, except IMHO, war is always a negative sum game.

Yes the US/ China trade benefits both, especially the US who gets cheaper goods for green pieces paper now, but even at some future date when China may insist on payment in gold etc., it will still be a benefit to both. (I am about as "Adam Smith" on this as it gets.) However, again you missed my point.

I do not understand how you could as I even noted that the Chineses are now shifting more of their production (at least in percent terms - I think even in volume terms recently - but you will no doubt know by searching) to their domestic customers and to the suppliers of the raw material, energy and food , such as Brazil, every year.

Thus the US is already lossing out on some of the free trade benefits and very likely to rapidly lose more if US Congress has it ways. - Here even some normally intelligent Republicans are joining forces with often stupid (on this issue) Democrates to limit Chines/American trade!
 
Oh reallly? A joint program between Russia and China in space? link please :cool:
sorry do not have one - just a recent report in my local newspaper, as I now recall - part of the "sputnic aniversity stories." I am not good at searching, so will not waste time trying to find one for you. Please search your self and post what you find, if anything.
 
sorry do not have one - just a recent report in my local newspaper, as I now recall - part of the "sputnic aniversity stories." I am not good at searching, so will not waste time trying to find one for you. Please search your self and post what you find, if anything.

It's a lie in newspaper, I am telling you.
 
I've heard of Phobos-Grunt but never a manned mission.
I did not say a "maned mission" althouth that is in China's current plans - many years hence. The one expected in the next few months will just orbit the moon, take photos etc. for that later maned mission.
 
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