Challenge to atheists....

VitalOne said:
Atheists constantly b*tch (I'm starting to censor all my language because mods don't tolerate it now), wine, and moan all over this forum about how there's no evidence of God/soul/afterlife etc...and how people who believe in such things are trapped in delusion...living in a fantasy world, everyone's delusional except for them.....
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How is believing in the non-existent not delusional? Wouldn't you say I was delusional if I told you I worshiped Zeus? or Thor? or Crom?

Now I know a lot of you atheists will be saying bullsh*t like "the burden of proof is on the theist" but this isn't about any of that sh*t, this about the truth, the ACTUAL TRUTH, you know the way that reality really is, and how in something known as *reality* new empirical evidence will be gained an in 1,000 years biology, chemistry, physics, etc...will probably be completely different....
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Reality can demonstrate effects that can be measured. What effects does your god have on nature?

You'd have to be a real fool to insist that science has all the empirical evidence there is and knows all that there is
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No scientist or anyone who knows anything about science would never have this view or accept it, hence you must be the real fool if you do.

Get this through your thick atheistic head for a second, it means that REALITY, the way things REALLY are is very different from what modern science has concluded...you can hate or love it...but you can't say its not true...
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The fact that science may alter theories over time has nothing to do with your belief in your god, or my belief in Zeus, Thor or Crom. Get that through your thick head.
 
Get that through your thick head.
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That'll be the day! You are writing on a brick wall, most can read and understand what you write, the brick wall has no understanding, reason or logic.
 
The problem with those experiments is that they do not measure how much doubt or faith the person doing the praying has within them. I declare that if (regardless of your belief in God) you imagine the feeling of any desire already occuring, then it would occur, ofcourse there are many other factors involved, but basically just what Jesus says:
"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:24)
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I think this concern was reasonably addressed by using regular churchgoers as volunteers. While some of them may have questionable faith, that is hardly possible with all of them, which means that their prayer for real people with real health problems should have a measurable effect.

You might be able to improve your group of pray-ers by using a questionaire. Aren't people able to analyze for themselves how much faith they have?
 
spidergoat said:
I think this concern was reasonably addressed by using regular churchgoers as volunteers. While some of them may have questionable faith, that is hardly possible with all of them, which means that their prayer for real people with real health problems should have a measurable effect.

You might be able to improve your group of pray-ers by using a questionaire. Aren't people able to analyze for themselves how much faith they have?
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Your assumption about churchgoers is not based upon reality, lots of churchgoers probably unconsciously doubt that whoever is in the hospital or whatever will actually survive...people unconsciously doubt lots of things....just as how a fat person consciously says they want to lose weight but unconsciously they say they'd rather watch TV than diet and exercise....

Prayer is not simply doubt unconsciously but pretend that you have faith and it will work, I declare that the truth is that if you imagine the feeling of any desire already occuring, that will occur, ofcourse it won't work if there is no energy or emotion behind it, you won't get great results...

For someone who has mastered prayer or what is known as manifestation, it would work a lot better, how about you gathered a group of people who have mastered prayer or art of manifesting desires and then conduct the experiment? That should be fair enough, shouldn't it? I use manifestation on a daily basis, I personally know that it is true, and that it works when done properly...
 
So do you think the percentage of people with faith is any higher in regular churchgoers than among the general population?

How about you recruit only ordained priests or monks for the experiment? I think they might be less likely to even participate.
 
spidergoat said:
So do you think the percentage of people with faith is any higher in regular churchgoers than among the general population?

How about you recruit only ordained priests or monks for the experiment? I think they might be less likely to even participate.
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What do you mean by faith? Is there faith that God exists higher? Well ofcourse it is no doubt, is their faith that their grandma or aunt or whoever is in the hospital will survive higher than others? Probably not...thats why they cry in the hospital...if they had no doubt that they would survive they wouldn't be crying at all...now would they?

How about you recruit people who are skilled or claim to be skilled at manifesting desires? That would be a lot better...and make a lot more sense....
 
So, does God give preferential treatment to the prayers of the "skilled"? They may have faith in God, but doubt that prayer can be tested through scientific means, therefore their prayers during the experiment could be less than completely sincere.

No disrespect, but the faith in God of some retarted people is complete, are their prayers for more milk and cookies more likely to get answered than someone with a little doubt praying for the recovery of a loved one?
 
spidergoat said:
So, does God give preferential treatment to the prayers of the "skilled"? They may have faith in God, but doubt that prayer can be tested through scientific means, therefore their prayers during the experiment could be less than completely sincere.

No disrespect, but the faith in God of some retarted people is complete, are their prayers for more milk and cookies more likely to get answered than someone with a little doubt praying for the recovery of a loved one?
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The Old Testament makes it clear that God helps those who help themselves.....if someone chooses to be ignorant, ignore the scripture and pray ignorantly then they can go ahead and have their desires remain unfulfilled...wondering why it doesn't work, just read what Jesus says...

God is unchanging, eternal, the origin of reality, he is equal to all, when someone focuses their mind on God with devotion they are "manifesting" God, as The Buddha says "what we think, we become"...

"And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22)

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you" (John 15:7)

It wouldn't make sense to have a prayer experiment with people who pray with doubt...and then say see it doesnt' work when Jesus exclusively says not to doubt...I can guarantee to you that it will work if there is no conscious or unconscious doubt
 
I know, we can hook the participants up to a lie detector, and ask them about their faith. If they have any doubt, and don't admit it, it will show up as a lie.

Another question, what if you pray for faith?
 
VitalOne

Well, my arse is still firmly planted so either you lack the faith of a mustard seed and had better well pray there is no God as you are most likely going to be in Hell with me and 90% of Sciforums :) or, and the more reasonable answer - There is/are no God/s.
 
We are trying to figure out how to test it scientifically.

OK, assume you have a group of religious people who's faith you can be sure of due to lie detector testing. Then run the same prayer experiment I linked to earlier, have them pray for a group of people recovering from surgery, and compare their recovery rate to the average.

An interesting fact from the previous experiment was that people took longer to recover if they knew they were being prayed-for. I guess because people only pray for you of your situation is critical.
 
Michael said:
VitalOne

Well, my arse is still firmly planted so either you lack the faith of a mustard seed and had better well pray there is no God as you are most likely going to be in Hell with me and 90% of Sciforums :) or, and the more reasonable answer - There is/are no God/s.
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Again, instead of seeking the truth you just jump to conclusions...so go on and stop seeking the truth...I mean its not like you really care about the actual truth, the actual nature of reality....you just care about preserving your atheistic beliefs....so go on and continue making up useless logical arguments that have no basis in reality (because no objective evidence is involved)....

spidergoat said:
I know, we can hook the participants up to a lie detector, and ask them about their faith. If they have any doubt, and don't admit it, it will show up as a lie.

Another question, what if you pray for faith?
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spidergoat said:
We are trying to figure out how to test it scientifically.

OK, assume you have a group of religious people who's faith you can be sure of due to lie detector testing. Then run the same prayer experiment I linked to earlier, have them pray for a group of people recovering from surgery, and compare their recovery rate to the average.

An interesting fact from the previous experiment was that people took longer to recover if they knew they were being prayed-for. I guess because people only pray for you of your situation is critical.
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I don't think a lie detector tests really measures doubt/faith...just look into psychology and neurology...for instance a real fat person, like a real fat person reading this could say "I really believe, and I really want to lose weight", but unconsciously they don't, they're just lieing to themselves, because if they really wanted to, all parts of their brain wanted it (the left, right, mid, and brain-stem) then they would constantly take action to not be fat, instead their brain (mid-brain) enjoys the emotion of gratifying their appetite a lot more than the idea of diet and exercise.......

Perhaps brain-waves are a better measure, also it doesn't matter if you're religious or not, you manifest every personal experience all the time regardless of your beliefs, everything's all your fault, everything you experience you consciously or unconsciously caused...
 
VitalOne said:
Again, instead of seeking the truth you just jump to conclusions...so go on and stop seeking the truth...I mean its not like you really care about the actual truth, the actual nature of reality....you just care about preserving your atheistic beliefs....so go on and continue making up useless logical arguments that have no basis in reality (because no objective evidence is involved)....
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Are you afraid to explain why a lack of objective proof is a silly reason to not believe something?
 
VitalOne

YES or NO
1) Is there one iota of evidence that God exists? Any at all? Any? Anything at all?

If the answer is no then it is YOU that do not want to seek the truth.

YES or NO
2) Is it true that there is no more evidence that your God(s) exists then there is evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) or the Invisible Pink Unicorn (IPU)?


Well then,if that is the case then you are a FSM and IPU atheist. So, why don't you take up your very own challenge and devise an experiment that "proves" that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unidorn is NOT real?

As you obviously don't believe in those Gods you would probably think to yourself: Well, if they are real then have them levitate me from my seat.
Yes or No is that a fair enough experiment?

But then that is no good because it quickly establishes that those Gods are make-believe.

It's funny you dismiss my experiment. When I used to want to "prove" to my little sister there were no invisible Monsters that were in her room going to scarfe her at night I'd devise just those sorts of "experiments". As there really were no Monsters nothing ever happened and she was happy to beleive the REAL truth - that being that those monsters were in only her imagination.

Now, can you for one moment just stop and think, hmmm why would someone believe in the FSM or IPU?
Why?
They are obviously not real Gods anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a delusion. If you can understand that, well then at least you can understand what I think about which ever Gods you happen think are real.

Starting to make any sense to you at all?
Any?


Are you really that afraid of oblivion that you must invent a fairy tale to sleep well at night?

Michael


PS: So what is your experiment to prove FSM and IPU do not exist? Can you think of one?
 
Michael, any idea can be investigated scientifically. The God hypothesis contains assumptions that can be analyzed, if not disproven.
 
You dont even need to use an example as obviously outlandish as the FSM or IPU. The theist says those are obviously false because they have no followers, no books, no witnesses. It really makes no difference, but you have to make it exceedingly obvious to the thick brained theists.

A better argument is that they are atheists to other religions that have millions of followers and plenty of literature. They call the FSM a joke and dismiss it easily, but i want them to go to the middle east and start talking about how mohammad is a fairy tale.
 
Jeff 152,

Well that was my point. If there is no more or no less evidence for a joke over that of their own Gods then doesn't that imply their Gods are a joke?

Michael
 
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